PSSM people, I need your advice please!

[Ellietotz]

My head is completely scrambled.

Please can you let me know if this is okay and what I should add then?

Dengie Alfa A Molasses Free (just under half a Stubbs scoop)
10000iu Vitamin E Oil
Coopers Gut Support
Salt

 

[ycbm]

Also, what oil? And how do I find out the NSC of feeds?

Any oil. But oil will take longer to build up in her feed to 4-500 ml a day, and some won't eat enough of it , and mine was better on oil but much much much better on alcar.

FFS just buy some alcar!

 

[ycbm]

My head is completely scrambled.

Please can you let me know if this is okay and what I should add then?

Dengie Alfa A Molasses Free (just under half a Stubbs scoop)
10000iu Vitamin E Oil
Coopers Gut Support
Salt

Fine. Add alcar at 1 g per 45 kg of bodyweight. I was able to add the whole amount immediately and my horse's tight muscles popped like a balloon after less than two days, and that was after a year on oil and when I thought he was doing well.

 

[Ellietotz]

Any oil. But oil will take longer to build up in her feed to 4-500 ml a day, and some won't eat enough of it , and mine was better on oil but much much much better on alcar.

FFS just buy some alcar!

How much do I feed?

Edit: just seen your response as I posted! So for 445kg, 10g of Alcar?

 

[ycbm]

How much do I feed?

Edit: just seen your response as I posted!

Ellie, please, do some reading! The information on how much to feed is available free on the Forageplus site that I told you about higher up. This forum seems to be your first post of call. You need to go and research this disease for yourself and decide if your pony fits the description, and then try the diet changes to rule it in or out.

With luck, it will be a clear answer, and easily managed if positive.

 

[Ellietotz]

Ellie, please, do some reading! The information on how much to feed is available free on the Forageplus site that I told you about higher up. This forum seems to be your first post of call. You need to go and research this disease for yourself and decide if your pony fits the description, and then try the diet changes to rule it in or out.

With luck, it will be a clear answer, and easily managed if positive.

I edited my other reply. I was about to buy some ALCAR. She does fit the description for symptoms. It's the feed thing that I am trying to work out. I have done a lot of reading on it already and I'm just not sure what is best to try first.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I feel like I've got a good result from adding Alcar. But mine's symptoms are very subtle other than the obvious tying ups so it's hard to tell. It's more like an overall softening and loosening physically and mentally rather than really clear cut changes. But I got do far with Vitamin E then the Alcar just took her another step softer. Vitamin E... 2 weeks ish, Alcar... a few days. Get a small bag from a human bulk powders type place (my OH takes it too!) to try it.

SEL! I have a zip lock bag!

 

[Ellietotz]

I feel like I've got a good result from adding Alcar. But mine's symptoms are very subtle other than the obvious tying ups so it's hard to tell. It's more like an overall softening and loosening physically and mentally rather than really clear cut changes. But I got do far with Vitamin E then the Alcar just took her another step softer. Vitamin E... 2 weeks ish, Alcar... a few days. Get a small bag from a human bulk powders type place (my OH takes it too!) to try it.

SEL! I have a zip lock bag!

Just ordered it. Lets hope something works.

 

[BBP]

I had a biopsy done and I absolutely do not regret it. I had tried vitamin e (horse blood tests as deficient) and alcar with no improvement. I couldn’t try oil as it is contraindicated for horses with compromised livers which mine had. Plus he had heaps of energy and was plenty fat so I saw no benefit to trying it. The biopsy showed that he had RER rather than pssm, which answered a lot of my questions about him. All that said, it didn’t massively help fix him, just to understand him. His cells release excess calcium which tells the muscle fibre to contract, the excess also blocks the receptor sites for magnesium which means he can’t ‘come down’ as easily. That’s the basic gist of it anyway. Minimising stress is really the key to him, and a lot of that stuff is the same as for pssm. Plenty of turnout with friends that make him happy, plenty of hay, plenty of exercise, long long warm ups and cool downs, keep warm, he tends to race and leap around when chilly so I rug him more than the others, I also warm his back up before riding. I manage his physical internal stresses like gut, hayfever and sacroiliac as when they cause pain his condition triggers more easily. He is a way happier horse post biopsy just because I think I understand a lot more what is happening in his body and what he is going through, so I can adapt what I ask of him.

Don’t panic about it all, one day you will find the key to her, until then all you can do is your best.

 

[Leo Walker]

You seem happy to throw money at physio. Please, do the quick and obvious diet things and rule out (or confirm) a PSSM case that responds easily, as many do.

Er, pardon? The vet has recommended physio under sedation. No one knows whether this horse has PSSM yet, but they do know shes sore all over and the vet and physio who have seen her have recommended treatment.

It certainly isnt a case of ET not wanting to spend money. Its that she is trying one thing at a time. Has the vitamin e even had a week yet? I dont think its has. So once she establishes that doesnt work then she can try something else. As you said, you need to rule things out and it needs to be done sensibly. I would be very wary of giving a pony prone to weight gain large amounts of oil unless it was a last resort, so trying that last of all seems the obvious thing to do.

Berating her for not doing exactly as you say, when you say it is ridiculous.

 

[paddy555]

nothing is quick about dealing with this. It took several months to stabilise mine and several years to even get that far and to put the final touches to it. This horse has not yet been on vit E for a week. The equimins oil is perfectly easy to deal with if you follow the method I described on the first page.
Good gram scales are under £20. There is no wastage and absolutely no mess whatsover. You also know that the horse has eaten every tiny drop.
What about selenium? is the horse having a supplement with selenium. You could of course test for both vit E and selenium levels.
Alcar works for some not for others. I would introduce alcar very slowly. Too much can make some horses high or with one I tried impossible.
I considered a muscle biopsy. I read up a lot about it and it seemed to be very much a case of who was going to read the results and their experience. At the end of the day it was going to be a mangement disease whatever name was given to it.

Personally I don't give oil. My diet is on the first page.
There is a lot of info on the PSSM FB page. Their diet was the first thing I tried. There is considerable experience also on that group as the Americans are way ahead of us. You could also consider testing with equiseq.

I would give the vit e a lot longer yet. If you are having no results in a month I would cut the dose to around 5000iu to use up the rest of the container.
What were the levels of CK and AST on your blood tests? did they alter between blood tests?

 

[paddy555]

Which is kind of the point...it's all very well if the horse does turn out to be pssm of one type or another but how much time is potentially wasted with dietary tweaks when if it's not pssm, other investigations could be being done? There are still a lot of other potential issues and pssm could be a red herring.

It may not be but sometimes on here the pssm fervour reaches quite a high and it's hard for people not to grasp at straws. I've done it myself. So just pointing out its not always the answer.

I agree it's not always the answer but for some it is. The problem is that many vets have no idea on this. If I had waited for my vet I would still be waiting. If I had waited for them to tell me how to deal with it I would still be waiting. If PSSM is the answer you can bang your head against a brick wall forever. It is reasonable that it is at least discounted. I haven't read all OP's other threads but I understand she had had a lot of vet work so presumably vet has considered other investigations.

 

[ester]

I'm curious re. the blood test results too Ellie, mostly as I don't recall them throwing up a possible myopathy issue?

 

[Ellietotz]

I agree it's not always the answer but for some it is. The problem is that many vets have no idea on this. If I had waited for my vet I would still be waiting. If I had waited for them to tell me how to deal with it I would still be waiting. If PSSM is the answer you can bang your head against a brick wall forever. It is reasonable that it is at least discounted. I haven't read all OP's other threads but I understand she had had a lot of vet work so presumably vet has considered other investigations.

The vet summarised it as behavioural.
The new vet said about a bone scan but it wouldn't be local.

 

[Ellietotz]

I'm curious re. the blood test results too Ellie, mostly as I don't recall them throwing up a possible myopathy issue?

In all honesty, I haven't actually seen the results. They just told me it was all normal.

 

[paddy555]

In all honesty, I haven't actually seen the results. They just told me it was all normal.

I would ask for a copy of the blood test results.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

In all honesty, I haven't actually seen the results. They just told me it was all normal.

What did they test for?

Many years ago, a well-known vet practice, which I will never use again, blood-tested a 6 yr old Shire mare and told me that all was normal. Eventually she was pts with what I now believe to be undiagnosed Cushings. I would ask your vet for the printout of the results and check everything out yourself.

 

[SEL]

Would it just be easier to get a muscle biopsy?

It's not 'easy' for the reasons YCBM has said but it would categorically tell you whether or not there is a muscular issue. You can test for some other genetic issues via a lab somewhere in Europe now. Casey can tell you where.

How engaged is your new vet in investigating issues?

Also, what oil? And how do I find out the NSC of feeds?

Any oil. I use a mix of copra and rapeseed. Some manufacturer's are better than others at publicising their ingredients and NSC. Google or message the manufacturer.

 

[Casey76]

Dr Melissa Cox at CAG is lovely to work with

https://www.centerforanimalgenetics.com/pssm2/

 

[Ellietotz]

It's not 'easy' for the reasons YCBM has said but it would categorically tell you whether or not there is a muscular issue. You can test for some other genetic issues via a lab somewhere in Europe now. Casey can tell you where.

How engaged is your new vet in investigating issues?



Any oil. I use a mix of copra and rapeseed. Some manufacturer's are better than others at publicising their ingredients and NSC. Google or message the manufacturer.

There is rapeseed in the Dengie Alfa A Molasses free already and it is 8.5% oil but that's if fed at recommended levels which it isn't. Would it be more beneficial to have linseed instead of Copra? My only worry is her getting really fat or having too much energy when not currently in work.

The new vet seems very helpful but she thinks it would be better to just get a bone scan done.

I have requested the old vet to send me over the blood test results from the beginning of January.

 

[Ellietotz]

The Dengie Alfa A Molasses free is also NSC 6.5%.

 

[paddy555]

I feed alfalfa, copra and linseed and that works well. Horses with PSSM are generally worked and in fact regular work is part of their management. I cannot remember why your horse is not being worked but can she be worked? I started mine off (after it had all come to meltdown and we started making progress) on 20 minutes in hand walking building up to an hour in hand. After that I started riding again.

 

[Ellietotz]

I feed alfalfa, copra and linseed and that works well. Horses with PSSM are generally worked and in fact regular work is part of their management. I cannot remember why your horse is not being worked but can she be worked? I started mine off (after it had all come to meltdown and we started making progress) on 20 minutes in hand walking building up to an hour in hand. After that I started riding again.

I was due to start after about 3 weeks off as vet advised to see if the SI injections had worked or not if that was the issue. Then she lost a shoe so this weekend I'll be starting work again.

 

[SEL]

There is rapeseed in the Dengie Alfa A Molasses free already and it is 8.5% oil but that's if fed at recommended levels which it isn't. Would it be more beneficial to have linseed instead of Copra? My only worry is her getting really fat or having too much energy when not currently in work.

The new vet seems very helpful but she thinks it would be better to just get a bone scan done.

I have requested the old vet to send me over the blood test results from the beginning of January.

If your physio thinks muscles are tight - & a good physio can tell - then ask your vet about trying muscle relaxants.

If your insurance will pay for the bone scan then worth a shot.

 

[Ellietotz]

I feel like I am stressing myself out here but I can't help it.
I'm worried I'm doubling up on things or not doing enough to tell if it's PSSM2 or not.

The diet:

Half Stubbs Scoop of Dengie Alfa A Molasses Free - I know this is not going to meet the same protein levels as displayed as it isn't being fed at the recommended level. Should I feed more of that or shall I get Linseed or Copra? Or nothing at all?

10000iu Vitamin E Oil - been on it 9 days now, seems more relaxed and less anxious but could just be settled in new field with friend now or the Topspec Calmer which I was going to stop but not sure now. Still can't touch her without negative reaction. (Kicking, ears back)

Coopers Gut Support - This is made from fermented barley and includes amino acids + derivatives which are Phenylalanine, Tyrosine, Asparagine, Glutamic Acid, Arginine, Alanine and amino acid derivatives of Betaine, GABA. Vet said this will take up to 6 weeks to make a noticeable improvement and so far it has only been 3 weeks.

Natural Sea Salt - I've only began with 10g a day at the moment and will gradually up it.

Should I add the Equimins Complete Pellets? I don't want this to react with anything else I'm giving though like the Coopers Gut Support.

I've also got the ALCAR on the way which I'm worried about it making her worse or spooky. I know the diet is a huge whirlwind of things to try before getting it right but I feel like I am complete unorganised with it all.

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

I am jumping in late to this discussion but for my PSSM2 suspect horse (he was tested by Equiseq and came back negative to all variants that they had at that time but I am still convinced he has something!!) I fed him:

Speedibeet
Top Chop Zero
Alfalfa Pellets
Salt
Micronised Linseed
Equimins Vitamin E oil
Tri Aminos

And he was the best he'd ever been on that along with hay and turnout. He was doing dressage and doing well, hunting etc. I would get on and he would feel like a normal horse to ride off on. The Alcar made little difference.

 

[Ellietotz]

I am jumping in late to this discussion but for my PSSM2 suspect horse (he was tested by Equiseq and came back negative to all variants that they had at that time but I am still convinced he has something!!) I fed him:

Speedibeet
Top Chop Zero
Alfalfa Pellets
Salt
Micronised Linseed
Equimins Vitamin E oil
Tri Aminos

And he was the best he'd ever been on that along with hay and turnout. He was doing dressage and doing well, hunting etc. I would get on and he would feel like a normal horse to ride off on. The Alcar made little difference.

Hmm that's interesting. So no balancer? God I am so confused with it all. I feel like the more I look into it, the more confusing it gets!

 

[PapaverFollis]

What I did was take her off literally all feed. Then added one thing at a time. If I felt she improved with it I kept it. I made a note of some of the behaviours I thought were related and counted how much I was seeing them. I checked how much she tracked up or eventually overtracked in a relaxed in hand walk. I liked her muscles to see how soft they were. Everything she has now corresponded with a improvement in these things. If I really wanted to test it Is take her off again and see what happened! But I daren't.

You are conducting an experiment of 1 unfortunately.

I found balancers made The Beast worse.

She now gets.

Weighed and measured soaked hay.
Turnout. Tracked in summer.
Big trug of top chop zero to keep Hangry at bay.
1 cup of speedibeet with handful of top chop zero.
5000iu vitamin E in summer ~8000iu in winter (basically a level measuring spoon in summer and a filled to overflowing measuring spoon in winter)
Magnesium Oxide 5g I think... 1 measure.
ALCAR 1 forage plus measure.
Equimins DeTye and Drink.
Salt 3 teaspoons.
Free access to Himalayan salt lick AND a mineralised salt lick.
Worked every day. 10 mins in walk warm up, 5 mins in walk cool down every time.
Back massage pad almost every day usually before sometimes after work.
Over-rugged.
As soon as I can do it it'll be 24/7 Turnout all year. But at the moment she's in overnight ( very large stable though )

Everything on there has made a positive, observable difference.

You do just have to not panic and keep trying stuff in a systematic manner. It's hard when your horse is sore though.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Poked her muscles. Not liked them.

 

[Ellietotz]

I didn't know you could test for PSSM2 by hair sample but according to Equiseq you can..