PTS for behaviour issues

[Tiddlypom]

I could never pass on a seriously quirky horse because, as others have said, no matter how careful you are at explaining everything to the next keeper, things are then out of your control.

I loaned my TB/section D to a friend when I was on maternity leave. He was a bit of a git, but nothing an experienced rider couldn't deal with, and I was absolutely upfront about his little ways. The 2 most important pieces of advice I gave her were (1) always lunge him for 10 mins to take the tickle out his toes if he hadn't been worked for a couple of days and (2) he is cold backed so sit lightly in the saddle at first and walk him round until he relaxes, then he is ready to work.

So she brings him out of the stable on a cold and windy day after he has been in for 48 hours (too wet to turn out), gets on, jams her leg on and says 'right horse, today you are going to WORK.'

Completely predictably he promptly bronked her off, and unfortunately she sustained permanent damage. She was an experienced professional.

After that I didn't let anyone else ride him but me (and I kept him for another 15 years). Of course I felt guilty about the fall, but I had warned her exactly what he was like, and what he would do. I would never have passed him on to another home, and this was a horse with relatively minor issues.

 

[Ladyinred]

Very interesting thread, apart form the one little tree hugger.

It amazes me how many horses do appear to have mental problems and also how long some of us go on dealing with them.

I have been told that we are 'making a fuss about nothing' with our problem horse and 'all he needs is lots of work' This is from someone who will not get on a horse for love or money! This person is unable to see the complete irrationality of his episodes and the danger it puts people in. Even living out in a totally chilled environment can sometimes be too much for him and he can be extremely difficult and dangerous. The saddest thing is the rest of the time he is a completely charming, ultra-polite horse who is 100% safe to hackout and have fun on. It would be very easy to pass him on to someone who viewed him on one of his good days, but we couldn't live with our consciences knowing it was only a matter of time before they were seriously injured.

 

[dunkley]

Satans Little Helper ................... I am sure I am not alone in really appreciating your last comment. Thank you.

 

[khalswitz]

We had a mare on my yard once - TB type, gorgeous, could have been Anglo as had a fine, retry head, proper blood bay. She could jump the stars, no dressage movement beyond her. 99% of the time was just an angel. But she could go mad - rear and flip, bronk and twist until rider lost, bolt, run and spin, roll with rider on... She had plenty of people off, to the point where my old boss got on her far too soon after her own c-section, to be thrown backwards into a drystone dyke.

We were the fourth yard we knew of to try her, and one of our girls convinced my boss to take the mare with her to another yard when she left. I heard she broke someone pretty badly there. Don't know if she got pts or not - she was so beautiful and talented that any rider or trainer worth their salt wanted to try and fix her. But she was mad.

It is the one thing my boss says she regrets doing, is being convinced to pass her on. Now, she says shed rather pts before someone got hurt - and better too soon than too late when lives are on the line.

Equally I do agree that one mans dangerous is another mans overhorsed. But it is when they are dangerous it's no laughing matter.

 

[CrazyCobLady]

I haven't done it myself but I definitely would if I had a dangerous horse. Not only because I wouldn't want it passed around but I wouldn't want it potentially falling into the wrong hands and being neglected or injuring/killing somebody.
I think PTS is definitely the best option - Sorry about your situation.

 

[Goldenstar]

The saddest thing about mine was that in his work he was tremendous fun .

 

[DJ]

The saddest thing about mine was that in his work he was tremendous fun .

Hug ..... but that is a good thing too, as you gave him that enjoyment

 

[DJ]

she was so beautiful and talented that any rider or trainer worth their salt wanted to try and fix her. But she was mad.

This is what worries me with my lad, as he is simply stunning, when he elevates he is breath taking and so many different people have commented on that, i know if i were to pass him on, *someone* would push him past his mental limit and capability ..... and i know they`d get hurt.

 

[Magicmillbrook]

So true.

 

[yaffsimone1]

Perhaps you could offer this horse a home then.

Good call Amymay

 

[Pale Rider]

My post was certainly not meant to be a thinly veiled insult. I don't veil insults thinly or otherwise.
If you take what I've said as an insult, it probably says a lot about you what you've done and how you feel about it.
If a person wants to put down a horse for behavioral issues, fair enough, is my opinion.

 

[Wagtail]

Nothing wrong with PTS if a horse is dangerous. If the danger is just ridden, then I would retire or send to the blood bank. But if circumstance dictate that either of those things are not possible, then PTS is certainly the responsible thing to do. My own gelding would freak out when saddled. Completely going berserk. It turned out that he had kissing spine despite being checked by two vets, and two different physios. All had said his back was fine! Sadly, despite having him operated on, he has remained the same, and I have had to retire him aged 11.

I am of the belief that there is always a reason for bad or dangerous behaviour, usually physical, and not always detectable, no matter how much money you throw at the vets. We have a mare here that has had nearly £10,000 of investigations. She is currently unridable. If pushed she will rear and spin (nearly came over on top of me on a fence!). Nothing can be found, except that she cannot do back lifts. We have only just discovered this after getting yet another physio to her. She has had scintigraphy and thermal imaging and nothing has shown up. But the fact that she cannot lift her back says that there is a physical problem. We just don't know what. Anyway, this mare will not be passed on. Her owner will retire her if we cnnot solve her problem.

However, there are some horses that I wouldn't hesitate to PTS, and those are aggressive horses (so long as possible physical causes have been ruled out), or as in Goldenstar's case, where a horse can just flip out for no reason and could cause serious damage to a person.

 

[Wagtail]

It is certainly the case that some horses (just like some humans) are dangerous to themselves and others.

On the other hand, it's interesting to me that everybody will do extensive veterinary checks and treatments if they think their horse has a physical issue, but it seems behavioural issues are either things you sort out yourself or with your trainer. Does nobody consider getting a qualified behaviourist to examine the horse under veterinary referral? If it was a physio problem, you'd get a physio under vet referral, you wouldn't manipulate the horse yourself. If it was a farriery problem, you'd get a remedial farrier working with your vet. There are people who specialise in working with horses who have severe behaviour problems, but they don't seem to be featuring on this thread. Is it because people just don't know they exist, or is it because people think behaviour is just something that can't be changed?

You make a very good point!

 

[RunToEarth]

The saddest thing about mine was that in his work he was tremendous fun .

I had one like that. Such a smart person and really did move mountains for you, he was such a character to be on board. But I couldn't trust him not to have an off day and completely deck me, or worse, someone else. That was the bottom line for me, there may have been someone better placed to fix him, but as it was he was mine and my responsibility - GS you should be proud you did the horse a justice in letting him end his days with you.

 

[quirky]

If you take what I've said as an insult, it probably says a lot about you what you've done and how you feel about it.
If a person wants to put down a horse for behavioral issues, fair enough, is my opinion.

You couldn't be more wrong. I am secure in the knowledge I absolutely did the right thing.

Again, I don't think anybody ever 'wants' to put a horse down. Are you got real?

You seem to succeed in writing things that are pretty insulting and what's more, I think you're well aware what you do.

 

[Adopter]

I am currently in a situation where I wish I had PTS. I decided to sell a pony who would unpredictably spin and throw me off. I had him fully checked by a vet, I had physio, dentist, saddler and sought help from a well respected behaviourist and I spend thousand on lessons and professional schooling. I came to the conclusion that it was because I was scared of him I was causing the behaviour and was giving him no confidence. I sold him and was absolutely honest with the lady, told them EVERYTHING he did and that he wasn't suitable for a child and needed a confident rider to give him confidence. He was very naughty on the day she tied him but she was very confident, experienced and decided to take him. I got a recent phone call from a lovely lady who had traced me through his passport. He had shortly after been sold to a dealer with NO explanation as to his behaviour and sold by the dealer onto a lady and her daughter as a safe pony. Daughter has just got out of hospital after being very seriously injured. I feel horrendous and wish I had had him PTS, I thought I was doing the best thing for him but I wasn't and now he could have killed someone. I don't know what the current owners are going to do and I have no authority to decide for them

So sorry to read of your experience, but you illustrate so well why so many on this and similar threads say pts, it is because they know what could and will happen. No one takes on a pony or horse expecting things to go wrong, but when they do it is a very difficult decision and huge responsibility to make the right decision, because there are always different views on how to resolve the situation.

 

[Pale Rider]

You couldn't be more wrong. I am secure in the knowledge I absolutely did the right thing.

Again, I don't think anybody ever 'wants' to put a horse down. Are you got real?

You seem to succeed in writing things that are pretty insulting and what's more, I think you're well aware what you do.

I'm glad you feel as you do, nor do I think normal people want to put horses down, it's something that happens now and again. If you want to keep animals, you have a responsibility to them, ending it for them is part of that, not keeping things going for selfish reasons.

You obviously have a problem with me, block my posts.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Bright bay, please what is a qualified behaviourist such as you recommend? The term makes me think of the parelliteenies and the person who will ask for a lock of your horse's hair and then make a diagnosis from 200 miles away that the horse is misbehaving because you have changed the colour of his saddlepad and the other horses are laughing at him.

Apologies for the facetious way I wrote that but I had genuinely no idea that you could get a vet's referral to a behaviourist, I would like to hear more about them.

 

[khalswitz]

Bright bay, please what is a qualified behaviourist such as you recommend? The term makes me think of the parelliteenies and the person who will ask for a lock of your horse's hair and then make a diagnosis from 200 miles away that the horse is misbehaving because you have changed the colour of his saddlepad and the other horses are laughing at him.

Apologies for the facetious way I wrote that but I had genuinely no idea that you could get a vet's referral to a behaviourist, I would like to hear more about them.

Gives a good idea of what a behaviourist is and does:

http://www.equinebehaviourist.co.uk/faq.html

Like a dog behaviourist, they should be degree qualified and have studied animal behaviour. I studied animal behaviour to a degree whilst at vet school, and again now during my Equine Science Masters, but a proper behaviourist will have gone into far more detail.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Thanks, khalswitz, for the link, that makes for very interesting reading.

 

[cptrayes]

Satanslittlehelper - thankyou.

 

[Booboos]

I've had a dangerous horse put to sleep. It was a while ago (about 15 years) and I spent 4.5 years trying everything I could with the horse in terms of vet investigations and re-training. At the end of the day she was so unpredictably and violently dangerous when ridden that I gave up riding her when the professional told me she couldn't afford to get back on her after the last accident because she had children and did not want to leave them motherless! The horse was also a horror to handle, as well as box walking and fence walking constantly, she would attack you loose in the field, she would break away in the yard and go on a bronking fit around people, cars, other horses, etc for no particular reason.

The day I was loading her up to take her to the hunt the YO was begging me to reconsider, but of course would not take her on, or even agree to keep her as a livery as she was so difficult to handle...so what was I supposed to do with her?

Sometimes it's the right and only thing to do.

 

[xDundryx]

Satans Little Helper ................... I am sure I am not alone in really appreciating your last comment. Thank you.

Much appreciation from here too

 

[cptrayes]

Gives a good idea of what a behaviourist is and does:

http://www.equinebehaviourist.co.uk/faq.html

Like a dog behaviourist, they should be degree qualified and have studied animal behaviour. I studied animal behaviour to a degree whilst at vet school, and again now during my Equine Science Masters, but a proper behaviourist will have gone into far more detail.

The problem with actually using someone like this, though, is that they need to see the behaviour to really understand it, and many of the truly dangerous ones are dangerous precisely because it cant be predicted when they will do it.

I dont think it really compares very well to physical investigations.

 

[Cortez]

I have dealt with a good few rescue and problem horses, and have had outcomes from fantastic to failure. Some horses are not fixable, no matter how hard or how long you try, or how much you long for there to be a good outcome. I have a horse which was destined to be PTS and who is now doing fantastically well, BUT he will never be a horse for the average rider; no matter as he will not be sold on. I have another horse who was just too unpredictable under our regime but who is now in regular hard work at another yard and is proving to be a star. I have also had a horse which was PTS as he was completely unpredictable and would injure himself and handlers, as well as being basically unhappy in himself. He was found to have brain tumours post mortem. It's not a fairytale; some horses cannot be helped.

 

[Echo Bravo]

Lets face it any decision to pts any animal for any reason is a very hard thing to do.

 

[khalswitz]

The problem with actually using someone like this, though, is that they need to see the behaviour to really understand it, and many of the truly dangerous ones are dangerous precisely because it cant be predicted when they will do it.

I dont think it really compares very well to physical investigations.

I've never used an equine behaviourist, but I worked with a dog behaviourist regularly whilst I worked at the SSPCA, and got a decent amount of practical behaviour training from her too, and having seen what she could achieve over a relatively short space of time I was really impressed. However, also interestingly, she always said there were some who you would never fix. Aggression can be relatively easy to solve, phobias you can work with, lack of socialisation, remembered pain, wrongly reinforced behaviours etc - but out of the blue, unpredictable flipping out, for no discernible reason, she would always advise pts, purely for safety's sake.

Personally, I think it goes alongside physical investigation very well, often hand in hand as pain-related behaviours can become reinforced and learning how to unteach these reactions is incredibly important, however I also think there are cases you can't solve. And most of the truly dangerous examples listed here wouldn't be solved by a behaviourist.

 

[Kallibear]

We had Kalli PTS a couple of years ago for behavioural issues. Her story is on here somewhere if you search.

She had a multitude of minor issues and a couple of majot issues. We spent thousands and thousands trying to get to the botton on them, both physical investigation and behaviourilists.. She was getting progressively more dangerous to ride despite professional schooling and starting to change from her happy sweet nature on the ground. All the investigation showed a pain issue(which we couldn't pinpoint depsite so much effort) but we also felt her stubborn stroppy attitude made it worse

There were various reasons that just retiring her wasn't possible (aggressive in the field and massive seperation anxiety) and although capable of being a happy hacker, her issues and temperament meant she needed an experienced and competent rider and therefore someone unlikely to be wanting to just dawdle about.

We COULD have sold her on but she was very likely to end up hurting someone eventually and most likely be passed from pillar to post. Having her PTS was the safest and kindest thing to do FOR HER.

My friend had a horse with similar and even more serious issues (extremely dangerous bronco). She spent a fortune having him investigated and professionally schooled, before sending him off to sales livery. She eventually found out he'd nearly killed a new owner and was shot. She should have had him PTS herself.

 

[Fii]

I know this is a strange thing to say, but it is good to hear that other people have had similar experiences!!
I had a young mare pts because her behaviour got more and more dangerous not just for me and other people , but for herself as well!
i bought her straight off the mare (more or less) and she was a strong character from the start, although she had not been handled, i had her halter broken and leading out in one day, more due to her being very forward than my brilliant horsemanship !
She was very bolshy and went straight into my small herd and took over, as she got older i seemed to be the only person who would deal with her, catching , brushing, etc, she kicked my OH on a few occasions and we also had a complaint from a member of public who said she had just come up too him turned around and kicked him for no reason!
After being on box rest for some weeks after a nasty injury she sustained on a gate latch we moved the herd too a different field (too get her off the footpath in our field) she became much worse to the point even i didnt like going in the field with her the last straw came when she reared up and struck out at my OH while he was leading her, catching him in the back of the head!!! My friend ( who bred her) said she would take her on for a while and see if she could help.
While at my friends place she ran through barbed wire on at least three separate occasions, without even thinking twice about it, so we both agreed that she was not only to dangerous to try and break ( i had bought her to eventually break and sell) she was a danger to herself!
she was a beautiful looking pony and i could have sold her for a good amount of money, but i would never have forgiven myself if she had hurt or killed someone!!

 

[Fii]

I would just like too add, i own the mares sire ( gelded now) and he is a bolter, and rather a mess in his head! I stopped riding him a few years ago as i had also lost my nerve a bit with riding, i am sure someone else would have been able to get him right, but like someone else said how do you find that person and make sure the horse stays with them?? he is quite happy being a field ornament he is no danger to anyone on the ground and we have plenty of room for him to live out his days stuffing his face!! He is probably in his twenties now!