Pts & h&h!

[Goldenstar]

SF there are lots of threads on this subject and lots of views .
how ever I don't remember the senarios Patterdale referred to I genuinely don't .
When you done what I have done and seen what I have seen I find accusing people of bloodlust and of mental illness ( that was not this thread ) frankly unhealthy and bizarre .
Perhaps there are so many threads on the subject is people use it like a thinking out loud exercise and find it easier than talking to friends in the first instance .
Many people don't have the close relationship with their vet that would make talking to the vet an easy thing to do , my vet is certainly the person I first say something to be she's also my friend and has done all out vet work for twenty years .
When I posted the deed was done I was on my own and a bit shell shocked by the whole thing everyone was very nice.
Having read the comments over the last few days I would never do so again.

 

[Goldenstar]

Can't quite believe you've forgotten already. You posted several times recently on one example.

The one the other day I stand by that I would not have commended the OP on that thread for PTS in her personal situation .

 

[Queenbee]

The difference between the forum and real life is that you don't know who's giving their opinion. Maybe the pro-PTS er's are young wannabe's who want to be taken seriously as a been there, done that, horse owners.
Or the lower end dealers.

In real life, I haven't met this attitude, especially amongst those who make a living from horses. The best of them have a great respect for the value of a horse after it's 'usefulness' is over.

I have to say, my attitude has changed more over the last few years, I'm not saying that if someone is able to they shouldn't keep and retire the horse, that would always be a preference. However, I'm far more of an advocate for PTS if they can't keep or don't want to now than ever before. I see it as logical and responsible under the current equine crisis. I believe that PTS is an option that has to be considered now much more in order that we stand any chance of getting a grip on our excessive and frankly dangerous equine numbers in the uk currently. However, I also recognise that such a measure will be no good on its own, there is no benefit in adopting such an approach if people continue to be blatantly irresponsible with their breeding. Regulation and education is needed to, and to be entirely frank, a complete overhaul of the equine industry to rectify our horse population and keep this appalling situation that we find ourselves in from ever happening again.

 

[Spring Feather]

When I posted the deed was done I was on my own and a bit shell shocked by the whole thing everyone was very nice.
Having read the comments over the last few days I would never do so again.

I make up my own mind when it is time for any of mine to go to that big old field up in the sky. In some cases the choice is taken away from you as there is no option but to have the horse PTS, in others where you have to make the decision, I decide and then have it done. I have had a few equine deaths this past year but I've never felt the need to make a thread about it. We're all different though and I respect that. I just don't care much for it when an OP makes no mention of considering PTS and yet so many people jump in there and say they'd PTS, and it's especially bizarre when we're often given limited information.

 

[Queenbee]

There is very much a sickening rush to suggest PTS on here when a poster asks for advice but has not suggested euthanasia.
Funny how the people who rush to suggest euthanasia can't recall them.

Some responses on this thread are just silly. NO ONE is saying that PTS when it is in a horse's best interests is wrong.
It is wrong when the owner is irresponsible and simply wants to get rid of an unwanted animal because they're bored. Or when they just want rid so they can buy and mess up another horse.

Horses may not know that they are about to die (unless they are packed off to a slaughter house), but does make it any more justifiable ? Is the life of any sentient being so worthless that it can be snuffed out on a whim ?

If a poster has asked for advice but not specifically mentioned PTS, why should posters not offer this as one form of advice, surely someone comes on here asking for advice so they can be presented with all valid options, PTS is one of these however much it may stick in ones craw.

 

[m1stify]

Life is precious. I saw a report from a rescue over the weekend this little chap having been rescued had no will to live wouldn't eat etc as he was treated so badly. Yes your typical piebald 'useless' horse. They gave him one more night. Someone stayed with him all night coaxing him to eat and he started eating. Then he tried to stand. They have him standing now supported and he is eating and drinking. There is a will to live. It made me think twice about things. Whose to say he won't make a useful pony.

 

[Spring Feather]

If a poster has asked for advice but not specifically mentioned PTS, why should posters not offer this as one form of advice, surely someone comes on here asking for advice so they can be presented with all valid options, PTS is one of these however much it may stick in ones craw.

Because they've probably already considered that PTS is not the way they believe they should go? They'd have to be a bit dim if it had not crossed their minds already that PTS is an option surely?

 

[Queenbee]

You know there have been lots. You (and I and most of the other posters in this thread) have participated in those threads. There's no need for HR to link to the threads because we all know which ones they are.

OP, I also notice this happening a disproportionate amount on this forum. It's so odd and it does take me aback at times because I just don't know people like this in real life. I can't put my finger on why it happens here but you're right, it does.

SF excuse my ignorance, I've always known you were from 'across the pond' but which country?

 

[Spring Feather]

I've lived in Canada for the past 10 years. I lived in the States for years previously, and also some other places in the world (UK and Europe).

 

[honetpot]

I go on a few forums, most never really discuss euthanasia because mainly the members are experienced horse people and are well aware of the options, on the smallholder forum the pigs are always going off to slaughter, and the first timers are a bit tearful.
On here there is a wide cross section of members and the problems they face are often for the first time so of course they ask for peoples advice. I have three PTS in the last two years, I have a lot of oldies, and I have given other people advice face to face from my experience as I would do on here. It may be something like acting as a sounding board or giving the number of the hunt or fallen stock man. No one has to take your advice and unless the animal was in distress I would never press anyone to have there animal PTS.
We have had a couple of bad winters and what with the financial situation people are struggling and having to make hard choices, H&H is a strong brand so it not so surprising people look for advice on here.
I laughed at the Munchausen's idea, with horses it would be by proxy. I find that most times people find ailments in horses an excuse for its bad behaviour, and a reason not to ride whilst spending huge amounts on every quack treatment known, having one PTS if you did have Munchhausen's by proxy would spoil the fun.

 

[Queenbee]

Because they've probably already considered that PTS is not the way they believe they should go? They'd have to be a bit dim if it had not crossed their minds already that PTS is an option surely?

You would think, but seriously I don't necessarily agree, I believe that some people genuinely do not want to consider such things so their thought processes just do not go there, sometimes they need someone to say it for them, and to say that it is ok. I don't think it's the only option, but it is as valid as any other option and hence should be considered even if it's discounted, unwanted, old, sick, 'useless' horses just haven't got the potential homes here, if finding a home for them is pretty much out of the question, and sanctuarys are a no go, and the owner wants rid and no lasting cost, then sad and dire as it is PTS is a valid and real option. People are all very willing to state they can't do it anymore, but if they can't seriously consider PTS as one option, then they need to man up, because frankly wanting to move a horse which currently in the uk would be considered 'useless' is no better or worse than putting it to sleep.

I have a friend who has a six year old warmblood, she is paying full livery for it down here and has moved away, looked around and realised she can not afford prices where she has moved to. She hasn't had any sales enquiries and won't drop the price because she doesn't want to risk it falling into the wrong hands and so is considering PTS. This is by no means a useless horse, it is rideable, no issues, slightly sharp as mares can be, I'd have it if I had the time/money or land for anther but I don't. PTS is becoming more of a reality than ever before and there is nothing anyone can do about it, we as an equine community have bought this on ourselves.

 

[Queenbee]

I've lived in Canada for the past 10 years. I lived in the States for years previously, and also some other places in the world (UK and Europe).

Ah, see I learned a new thing today . I don't know what the situation is with the equine population, economic situation etc in Canada, but as I'm sure you've picked up on the UK's via horse and hound, it's so bad and I believe that it is why people here (uk in general not just HHO) are exhibiting a stronger attitude towards PTS than ever before.

 

[Spring Feather]

Ah, see I learned a new thing today . I don't know what the situation is with the equine population, economic situation etc in Canada, but as I'm sure you've picked up on the UK's via horse and hound, it's so bad and I believe that it is why people here (uk in general not just HHO) are exhibiting a stronger attitude towards PTS than ever before.

Hmm I don't know about the stats for horses being PTS by the vet over here but we do have a hugely thriving horse meat industry! Something like 100,000 horses become burgers each year.

 

[Goldenstar]

There's no doult we are in a mess over here and i fear it's going to get worse .
The overbreeding of poor quality lower end stock is completely out of control .

 

[be positive]

Hmm I don't know about the stats for horses being PTS by the vet over here but we do have a hugely thriving horse meat industry! Something like 100,000 horses become burgers each year.

I knew there was a horsemeat industry in Canada, that the US exports there now as they closed down the abattoirs but had no idea it was on such a huge scale.

 

[Spring Feather]

There's no doult we are in a mess over here and i fear it's going to get worse .
The overbreeding of poor quality lower end stock is completely out of control .

I knew there was a horsemeat industry in Canada, that the US exports there now as they closed down the abattoirs but had no idea it was on such a huge scale.

The really scary thing here is that a LOT of these horses are really well bred, pedigreed animals. They're not bob-the-cob hairy beasties with unknown parentage.

 

[Goldenstar]

The really scary thing here is that a LOT of these horses are really well bred, pedigreed animals. They're not bob-the-cob hairy beasties with unknown parentage.

So are they lame as in competition / racing rejects .

 

[Spring Feather]

So are they lame as in competition / racing rejects .

Loads and loads of racing rejects (TBs and STBs), loads of AQHAs. Just too many breeders I think, selling nicely bred stock for peanuts initially and then I guess because people only paid whatever for them they're not losing too much by sending them to the auctions. Some are pretty nice creatures and often not unsound or gammy. We also have had the PMUs to deal with in past years although that's nowhere near the size it used to be. And now as BP says, we have loads of US horses to deal with now too. It's on a massive scale.

 

[Goldenstar]

Loads and loads of racing rejects (TBs and STBs), loads of AQHAs. Just too many breeders I think, selling nicely bred stock for peanuts initially and then I guess because people only paid whatever for them they're not losing too much by sending them to the auctions. Some are pretty nice creatures and often not unsound or gammy. We also have had the PMUs to deal with in past years although that's nowhere near the size it used to be. And now as BP says, we have loads of US horses to deal with now too. It's on a massive scale.

Poor things having to travel a long way to die .
I have seen some horrible footage from the US welfare people

 

[Queenbee]

Hmm I don't know about the stats for horses being PTS by the vet over here but we do have a hugely thriving horse meat industry! Something like 100,000 horses become burgers each year.

See, this is what I'm talking about. A few years ago this would have shocked me, but nowadays I find myself thinking 'would that be such a bad thing?' I'm not saying I'm not shocked by the scale of it or heartbroken that horses of good breeding and bloodlines are going this route too which indicates that perhaps they are not so easy to sell where you are either. My point is seeing the general dire state of things in the uk has changed my perspective, I feel now willing to consider things in never did before: horse meat industry and PTS have become very real potential solutions to the problem in my mind.

 

[be positive]

The really scary thing here is that a LOT of these horses are really well bred, pedigreed animals. They're not bob-the-cob hairy beasties with unknown parentage.

They haven't really caught up with the trend for the cob types yet, that is the future you have in store!
The problem is still the same though, over breeding, without the end market, whether they are well bred or unknown the result is the same.

 

[Goldenstar]

There's nothing wrong in a well regulated horse meat industry .
Personally I won't eat it but others will .

 

[Queenbee]

They haven't really caught up with the trend for the cob types yet, that is the future you have in store!
The problem is still the same though, over breeding, without the end market, whether they are well bred or unknown the result is the same.

I couldn't agree more, I certainly agree with GS that a load of god awful cut and shuts are being bred from bad stock, but the well bred horses are in just as bad a state, tb's being left at the sales because they didn't sell with passport and a note affixed to their stable door 'free to a good home' . The parents of the people who bred Ben are well known and highly respected welsh breeders down here, they have put the brakes on any breeding because the sales are simply not there. It's an utter shambles, yet people see this all happening around them and then decide to put little nancy plod into foal, or keep willy the welsh entire and breed from him, as far as I'm concerned, breeding in all quarters should be halted while the situation is sorted out and a long term plan is implemented

*jumps off high horse*

 

[Goldenstar]

We still need horses bred so we have horses to supply the market there is .
It's a wider issue than the Uk.
I hear from Ireland they are in a proper mess and word has it fewer are being bred but the next wave are going to come from eastern Europe there's a dealer near here going to Rumania .

 

[Queenbee]

We still need horses bred so we have horses to supply the market there is .
It's a wider issue than the Uk.
I hear from Ireland they are in a proper mess and word has it fewer are being bred but the next wave are going to come from eastern Europe there's a dealer near here going to Rumania .

I simply don't agree, if feel that currently there are enough good horses of different ages and levels to supply that demand. I'm talking about a suspension for 12 months, in order to sort out regulation, rules and licensing for breeding and trading and bloody fines and repercussions for those who step over the mark. After that, a set number allowed to breed to meet demand, slowly increasing to a normal level over a set period of years. In the meantime, dealing with the amount of horses we currently have that are unwanted or considered 'useless' and decreasing the number of these. Stricter repercussions for welfare issues too and a bloody decent national campaign within the equine community to reeducate them.

 

[Goldenstar]

We need a constant supply in each age range if there are no British three year olds Britain people will just buy them from abroad .
Why should good studs breeding nice horses be put out of buisness .
The first we probally should try to achieve is a kick ass approach to fly grassing and tethering on road sides etc this will not be easy to do in an efficent and cost effective way .

 

[Cherryade]

I agree with both the two above posts (QB+GS). Stopping breeding would never be possibe because theres no one to police it, however we should look at whats being bred. Most reputable breeders have stopped breeding because they can see the mess around them no matter the quality of their stock, the only ones breeding at the moment are the unscrupulous types. Look a any sales page on facebook and you will see poor scraps going for free or little money, people buying/selling horses without even meeting the horse/owner or knowing anything about it but the dealers seem to be thriving, Flygrazing/tethering also needs to be addressed and a crack down on passports.

 

[Spring Feather]

I agree with both the two above posts (QB+GS). Stopping breeding would never be possibe because theres no one to police it, however we should look at whats being bred. Most reputable breeders have stopped breeding because they can see the mess around them no matter the quality of their stock, the only ones breeding at the moment are the unscrupulous types.

That does seem to be the case. Even over here I know many top class breeders who have put the kibosh on breeding their very nice horses for a year, or are breeding less mares. I'm lucky in so far as I don't have huge amounts of broodmares, I do have loads of land and I'm quite happy (and in some cases want) to hang onto my youngsters for a few years.

I don't know what the answer is. Breeding of good quality horses can't stop though otherwise where would the breeds be. The backyard breeding is a concern and it sounds like this is a very big part of the UKs equine problems and that's the breeding market that really needs to dry up, but as long as people continue buying these animals then the BYBs will keep on breeding. I'm not against an equine meat market, I think there is most definitely a need for it. I'm also not against others having their horses PTS; I just wouldn't choose it willy-nilly for any of my horses.

I don't know if it was on this thread or the other one that's running alongside, but Pearlasinger did pick up on a point which I totally agree with. She mentioned people, particularly those who are less experienced, should be considering older horses. Hey in my day schoolmasters were all the rage and they taught us a lot. Many of these horses were in their 20s and still going strong. These days a lot of people buying their first horse are looking at barely broken youngsters which very often aren't the best choice. These old horses have so much to give, not only to inexperienced riders either and it's a shame that more people aren't taking them on and finding out all the gifts they have to offer.

 

[AmiRobertson]

This is an interesting thread. Last year I had my 4yr old PTS. It was singlehandedly the worst day of my life. I stayed with her until the very end held her head and sobbed in the mud for about 20mins after she was gone. It broke my heart and I felt like a huge failure but I will never regret that decision it was completely the right one for her.
My reasons I had had her for a year, in that year she had endless problems. Lame every couple of months, expensive remedial shoeing, back problems, she napped, wouldn't hack alone or in front, reared on the ground I can go on. I will be the first to admit to was out of my depth with her but I was confident at the beginning of my relationship with her but by end I was in fear of her unpredictable behaviour that despite god knows how many vet visits we couldn't get to the bottom of it. This horse would not load she had had several horrific experiences (one by my own stupidity and I will never forgive myself for that) and despite professionals coming out she would not go on and found the experience incredibly stressful. The next step to finding out what was wrong with her was to load her up and take her to liphook. At this point I lost my job my insurance had nearly run out and I was borderline a mental breakdown. I chose to put her to sleep. I was heavily criticised in real life, dropped by my friends and bitched about behind my back.
HERE I had my support and I would not hesitate to ask on here again. It's the hardest thing in the world and if you have never had to do it or been in that position having a resource such as this forum to almost guide you through this is a blessing.

 

[khalswitz]

It is wrong when the owner is irresponsible and simply wants to get rid of an unwanted animal because they're bored. Or when they just want rid so they can buy and mess up another horse.

Bit harsh, IMO. Some people, like myself, just want to ride, rather than keep a horse that cannot be brought back into work - doesn't mean we mess our horses up any more than the person who keeps all their old crocks in a field. I certainly don't just PTS before other options have been tried/considered.

I don't know if it was on this thread or the other one that's running alongside, but Pearlasinger did pick up on a point which I totally agree with. She mentioned people, particularly those who are less experienced, should be considering older horses. Hey in my day schoolmasters were all the rage and they taught us a lot. Many of these horses were in their 20s and still going strong. These days a lot of people buying their first horse are looking at barely broken youngsters which very often aren't the best choice. These old horses have so much to give, not only to inexperienced riders either and it's a shame that more people aren't taking them on and finding out all the gifts they have to offer.

See, I would agree - but then being expected to owe a retirement for that horse will put people off, especially if they don't have that many years with it, or if finances only allow for one horse. I agree too many inexperienced riders/owners pick horses far too young/inexperienced, but I can understand why they would avoid buying an older horse when so many people would look down on them for not wanting to pay for it's retirement.