PTS on Behavioural Grounds?

unknownn said:
Sorry.. have you never seen a horse galloping in the field and bucking? This horse was bolting i'm afraid to tell you.
Click to expand...

I have never seen flat out and bucking at the same time, no. It is probably a language thing more than anything but to me a bolting horse would be going flat out (possibly through fencing etc) and not able to buck at the same time. Bucking/broncing being a 'slower than flat out galloping' sort of activity.

unknownn said:
Well.. if you must know more detail. One had him professionally restarted.. a couple of people restarted him themself. Two admitted to me they nearly had him pts but decided not to as they sold him with the knowledge of what he had done to the next. The first owner had him for four years. The lady he bucked did not just have one buck - he bronced her off and her instructor off.. hence getting a spinal xray.

I have notes of 5* vetting present in passport as proof. I also have proof of xrays.

This horse has other mental issues I have not gone into depth with in the hopes I can stay as anonymous as possible as my accident is not "public" as such and nor is the decision regarding the horse.
Click to expand...

I've no interest in who you are in rl/usually on here so please don't reveal anything you don't want to on a public forum on my account. Doesn't sound like mental issues necessarily. Could very well be physical, espec if the previous professional re-backing was by good people.

He was fine(?) for at least 4 years and then something happened and he got passed around between 9 different owners for the next 4 years.

You thought (possibly with good reasoning) you could do better than the previous 8 and make a few £££ bringing him on. Found out it might be expensive/difficult to identify cause of issues (and of course identify is not the same as address) and now horse may be PTS.

So, yeah, poor horse.

Some of the 8 owners in the 4 years may have done some x-rays but really do doubt any of them had the time to investigate thoroughly. There are owners on here who spend /months/ looking into issues which those homes simply didn't have.
 
In the ponies best interests, have it PTS.
In self interest, if you are selling in any way, have it PTS. The horse world is quite a small one and people are very quick to judge. I have to say with that many owners in his book I would not have bought to sell on. With small ponies I think you can allow an owner every two years, children change so quickly, a larger pony about every three- four years, as teenagers unless very competitive tend to hang on until they are really too big.
I once bought a three year old pony direct from a breeder, unbroken and it was a total s**t from the day I brought it home and not suitable for a child. Sometimes there is no rhyme or reason. Chalk it up to experience.
 
Yes, PTS, sad though it may be. There are just some that you cannot do anything with - I've done this to two a pony that was evil on the ground and dangerous and a hack that was impossible to have its feet done - it jst went ballistic whenever the farrier was near - a sweet ride but dangerous when anything was being done to its feet. I later found out that when he was racing they knocked him out to do his feet.

You will feel sad but relieved that there is no risk to anyone any more.

Hope you recover soon.
 
I own one of these "delightful" creatures He is a nightmare loose in a field but an angel in hand once caught is pretty much unrideable unless he loves you. I will never let him go anywhere else he will be shot if for any reason I cannot keep him. He hates vets, hates needles, cannot be wormed from a syringe, is always in your pocket he loves people so much but he doesnt seem to be able to control himself and often hurts you in his attempts to be your friend. He kicks bites loathes kids is unpredictable exept you can predict he will explode a some point, He is laminitic and a pain in the but. I love him to bits he is happy as long as its on his terms and is healthy on his track system. He is a driving pony now from time to time and seems to enjoy that. Before someone says he must have had a bad past he has been here with me since he was a few weeks old has been disciplined and treated the same way as all the other babies we have raised he is the second youngest so many have gone before him without issue he was simply born bad, dominant and aggressive. He is a fighter and has never been known to back down and run. You might ask why I keep him as he has nearly killed me several times but he is mostly very loving and adores the people he likes He is also totally wonderful as a companion to my old girl as you can leave him alone and he doesnt care he is comfortable in his own skin. I probably will have him shot if we ever have to be on livery or where kids can get near him our present situation means he can stay around a bit longer. I am pragmatic I could never let him go inspite of the fact I am certain some other mad person could cope but he is the perfect candidate for being passed from pillar to post while people try to understand him or beat it out of him he is who he is he is 12 now and has probably not got a lot left. He is grass/hay fed, greedy, and lives out 24/7 on a track
 
GirlFriday said:
I have never seen flat out and bucking at the same time, no. It is probably a language thing more than anything but to me a bolting horse would be going flat out (possibly through fencing etc) and not able to buck at the same time. Bucking/broncing being a 'slower than flat out galloping' sort of activity.



I've no interest in who you are in rl/usually on here so please don't reveal anything you don't want to on a public forum on my account. Doesn't sound like mental issues necessarily. Could very well be physical, espec if the previous professional re-backing was by good people.

He was fine(?) for at least 4 years and then something happened and he got passed around between 9 different owners for the next 4 years.

You thought (possibly with good reasoning) you could do better than the previous 8 and make a few £££ bringing him on. Found out it might be expensive/difficult to identify cause of issues (and of course identify is not the same as address) and now horse may be PTS.

So, yeah, poor horse.

Some of the 8 owners in the 4 years may have done some x-rays but really do doubt any of them had the time to investigate thoroughly. There are owners on here who spend /months/ looking into issues which those homes simply didn't have.
Click to expand...

Dear Oh Dear - you have obviously never had a horse/pony like this !
 
I had a pint that would suddenly react and start bringing. He had me off a couple off times. Everything was checked back saddle teeth arc and he wasn't in any pain. Turned out he was losing his sight, not something anyone could have spotted. He was pts recently. One of those things I wish I'd known earlier as it would have saved a lot of heartache x
 
honetpot said:
I have to say with that many owners in his book I would not have bought to sell on.
Click to expand...

In short and no detail I bought it from someone we know as it looked like a welfare case and was just going to be sold. I knew its talent and said i'd buy it - just to see what happens. I didn't realise how many owners he'd actually had until I looked at said page. :)

I actually only contacted the owners to see if he was nervous with them and how they caught him - if there were any tricks. The majority were very honest and brought up the bolting/bucking even though I had never asked - they could have easily said he was perfect and i'd have been none the wiser!
 
Some horses are not salvageable and realistically, for all concerned it would be best to send him on out of all harm's way by euthanizing him. I have a few rescues on occasion and there are some that are simply too far gone to save, either physically or mentally. I put down a horse which I rescued from an awful situation, had fought hard to save (I had him 6 years) and really loved with all my heart, but he was dangerous, unpredictable, and unhappy. Hardest day of my life, but still the right thing to do - for the horse.

The cause of your horse's instability is really irrelevant, it is the results of it that are the problem. Your injuries are not an accident, they were the result of this ponies intent and you can never be sure that he will not do this again.
 
Cortez said:
Some horses are not salvageable and realistically, for all concerned it would be best to send him on out of all harm's way by euthanizing him. I have a few rescues on occasion and there are some that are simply too far gone to save, either physically or mentally. I put down a horse which I rescued from an awful situation, had fought hard to save (I had him 6 years) and really loved with all my heart, but he was dangerous, unpredictable, and unhappy. Hardest day of my life, but still the right thing to do - for the horse.

The cause of your horse's instability is really irrelevant, it is the results of it that are the problem. Your injuries are not an accident, they were the result of this ponies intent and you can never be sure that he will not do this again.
Click to expand...

Very wise words ^^
 
GirlFriday said:
You thought (possibly with good reasoning) you could do better than the previous 8 and make a few £££ bringing him on. Found out it might be expensive/difficult to identify cause of issues (and of course identify is not the same as address) and now horse may be PTS.

So, yeah, poor horse.

Some of the 8 owners in the 4 years may have done some x-rays but really do doubt any of them had the time to investigate thoroughly. There are owners on here who spend /months/ looking into issues which those homes simply didn't have.
Click to expand...

FGS, stop being so judgemental.
 
Tnavas said:
Dear Oh Dear - you have obviously never had a horse/pony like this !
Click to expand...

Well when and if the time comes its her neck to risk and her cash going down the drain .
In the meantime in the real world OP is lucky her injury is not life changing
A dead horse is not suffering and I think many of these dangerous unpredictable horses do suffer in silence for years only reacting badly when things are unbearable .
Horses are hard wired to hide discomfort and some do this to a ridiculous degree .
 
I think it's quite clear that this poor pony is suffering - whether it's physically or mentally doesn't really matter.

I too would PTS unless I had the need and the setup for a companion and could guarantee his future with me. It's very sad for both pony and OP but it's the right thing to do. Hope you recover quickly OP.
 
Bolting/bogging off, whatever , for whatever reason, physical /behavioral, do I think its ok to pts? yeah I do. Would I do it? Yes I would, without a bit of guilt. I would be destroyed after and I would take a while to get over it but sometimes its the best you can do. Sometimes all the answers and solutions are bad ones.

I hate it when people debate the difference between a bolting and bogging off horse, because often its semantics. Having found myself with a horse prone to bogging off/bolting I can tell you I now class bolting as the times when no one is driving, at whatever speed.

One poster on here, once said ( I wish I could credit them ) "There are worst things for a horse then being dead!"

I a big bunny hugger ( well really anything cute and furry hugger ) and proud of it!! BUT the selling on, of hurt, dangerous, old horses to uncertain ,often grim futures , offends me much more then the swift , humane death of an animal.

Very well done OP , I wish more people thought like you
Get well soon.
 
Sukistokes2 said:
I hate it when people debate the difference between a bolting and bogging off horse, because often its semantics.
Click to expand...

My first pony when I was seven was generally a saint but she had a habit of locking her jaw and neck, setting her head right to the ground, and buggering off - in trot!
 
Sukistokes2 said:
Bolting/bogging off, whatever , for whatever reason, physical /behavioral, do I think its ok to pts? yeah I do. Would I do it? Yes I would, without a bit of guilt. I would be destroyed after and I would take a while to get over it but sometimes its the best you can do. Sometimes all the answers and solutions are bad ones.

I hate it when people debate the difference between a bolting and bogging off horse, because often its semantics. Having found myself with a horse prone to bogging off/bolting I can tell you I now class bolting as the times when no one is driving, at whatever speed.

One poster on here, once said ( I wish I could credit them ) "There are worst things for a horse then being dead!"

I a big bunny hugger ( well really anything cute and furry hugger ) and proud of it!! BUT the selling on, of hurt, dangerous, old horses to uncertain ,often grim futures , offends me much more then the swift , humane death of an animal.

Very well done OP , I wish more people thought like you
Get well soon.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. Would I do it if the horse was happy being a companion? No I wouldn't but I'm fortunate that riding isn't my main pleasure and I could live without it.
 
SpringArising said:
My first pony when I was seven was generally a saint but she had a habit of locking her jaw and neck, setting her head right to the ground, and buggering off - in trot!
Click to expand...

Kev did so with me in trot, after he slipped down a rut, several times and upset himself. He didn't get far but still for a while there neither of us were in control. I gained the upper hand and then he was fine. Could have gone either way as I now know he is capable of going the full hog.
 
I agree about the semantics on running way and bolting .
It does not matter - a dangerous horse is a dangerous horse and in a situation like you ask even if you chucked wheel barrows of money at the vets and they found an answer how likely is it that it would be something they could manage after the passage if time we know this horse has been exbibiting dangerous behaviour for a long time .
There are times when it perfectly reasonable for economics to play a role in the desision to PTS a horse .
I have one who has cost 18 k in over just over two years I accept now we will find no answers and have told the vets I won't pay for any more expensive diagnostics or treatments he's well ATM with me managing him carefully but if things deteriorate I will get him shot sounds brutal but you have to have some degree of realism .
 
Oh how sad :( Bad situation for all of you, and poor little creature being passed from pillar to post his whole life. I think putting him to sleep is probably the kindest/safest thing to do, definitely don't move him again.

I agree that there is probably something physically wrong. You could spend all of the money in the world on diagnostics and still not find the issue.

Is he girthy at all? I might scope for ulcers as a last resort if he was mine (as all the moves are likely to have caused them) but I'm still not sure I would want to get on something that could bronc out of the blue, even if he was suffering from them.
 
I often read posts like this and wonder if the "save it at whatever cost to your safety or pocket" posters would say if OP had unknowingly taken on a dangerous dog? I think the answer would usually be rather different.
 
Pigeon said:
Is he girthy at all? but I'm still not sure I would want to get on something that could bronc out of the blue
Click to expand...

Not girthy as such - raises back if you do girth too tight quickly but that's from the cold backed-ness.. otherwise not actually girthy.

Like you say.. there is no trigger for this bolting/bucking - he's never done it with me before and there wasn't anything different.. and that worries me.
 
I had a horse who never came back after a ligament injury quite the same. He went from a sane, albeit quirky horse, who I trusted with my life, to random explosive bolt/bronchos- probably identical to the ones you are describing. He put me in A&E and broke my ankle and badly damaged my neck and back.
I persevered for a while, had another crashing fall and several near misses, had him fully checked and no-one could find any reason for it. Enough was enough. I was either going to end up dead or seriously injured. I made the decision to retire him, but I was able to keep him as a pet as my funds allowed.

It is not worth risking your life for a horse. If you cannot keep the horse as a companion then I would certainly think no worse of you for putting it down. I wonder, perhaps, if that's what someone else should have done earlier on.
 
unknownn said:
Not girthy as such - raises back if you do girth too tight quickly but that's from the cold backed-ness.. otherwise not actually girthy.

Like you say.. there is no trigger for this bolting/bucking - he's never done it with me before and there wasn't anything different.. and that worries me.
Click to expand...

I would bet there is a problem with his back. Cold backed & panicking under saddle doesn't sound behavioural to me. If you've ruled out the obvious (ks) there's only so much you can do, whatever the diagnosis (ligament damage, changes in the si, pelvis injury etc) the prognosis is pretty much the same - he will be unsellable, and probably only safe as a companion. Even if you shell out loads of vet fees in investigations it's very unlikely to actually change anything.

I'm so sorry you're having to go through this and my heart goes out to you and pony. Neither of you should be in this situation - someone should have really manned up and taken responsibility several owners ago!

I just came back to say exactly what scats has - don't risk yourself for a horse!!
 
millikins said:
I often read posts like this and wonder if the "save it at whatever cost to your safety or pocket" posters would say if OP had unknowingly taken on a dangerous dog? I think the answer would usually be rather different.
Click to expand...

Glad it's not just me.

I read threads where people are happily(?) breaking their hearts/bones/credit cards trying to investigate symptoms or manage a difficult condition, and I often wonder why they're putting themselves through it.
 
unknownn said:
Like you say.. there is no trigger for this bolting/bucking - he's never done it with me before and there wasn't anything different.. and that worries me.
Click to expand...

I used to ride a horse like this for someone. Would be absolutely fine, going well, then suddenly just flip out - spinning, bucking, bolting. There never seemed to be a pattern, and not knowing what might set him off shredded my nerves. He would keep going until you came off, or until you abandoned ship. That horse nearly killed me.

Owner sent him off to a pro, who gave him another chance...then forbade anyone else to get on him, ever, once they saw what he was like.

If I owned that horse now, I would PTS.
 
smja said:
I used to ride a horse like this for someone. Would be absolutely fine, going well, then suddenly just flip out - spinning, bucking, bolting. There never seemed to be a pattern, and not knowing what might set him off shredded my nerves. He would keep going until you came off, or until you abandoned ship. That horse nearly killed me.

Owner sent him off to a pro, who gave him another chance...then forbade anyone else to get on him, ever, once they saw what he was like.

If I owned that horse now, I would PTS.
Click to expand...

I think that's the worst thing with horses like this. There is no pattern and that makes them scary. The horse I mentioned earlier was like that. He had had a spinal xray which was clean. Nothing physical could be found. I rode him a few times and he never put a foot wrong but I felt that something wasn't right with him and I didn't feel safe. Twice he had bolted through paddock fencing when turned out. Then he put his owner in hospital for 3 days the first time by bolting into the arena fence. The second time he broke her neck, all her ribs and punctured her lung. She had been riding for around 15 minutes in the arena at just walk and trot. Just awful.
 
Goldenstar said:
A dead horse is not suffering and I think many of these dangerous unpredictable horses do suffer in silence for years only reacting badly when things are unbearable .
Horses are hard wired to hide discomfort and some do this to a ridiculous degree .
Click to expand...

Agree with this wholeheartedly. I think the right decision is to PTS OP.
 
There probably IS something wrong, but finding it is not always possible. And as other say, trying different investigations is a money pit.

I knew one horse that was home bred which was well brought up and broken in, but started bucking and, as the owner said, could buck for England. As it was home bred the owner tried everything - organic feed, all sorts of treatments and investigations. She was advised not to ride it. Eventually she picked up a horse magazine and read a veterinary article and realised that it matched the symptoms as hers and she got her vet, reluctantly, to refer to the vet in the article.

It transpired that it had damaged its poll in an accident as a 4 year old. Had pulled backwards and fell over when tied up, but seemed OK at the time. The treatment involved a general anesthetic and an osteopath manipulating the horse. I think it took 3 or 4 treatments and it was a cure.

Then there was the young horse that (unknown) got kicked in the ribs and took to bucking and put owner in hospital never to ride again and after 6 months abandoned and turnout was ridden again. Then there was another that bruised its ribs when it lay down so the saddle was uncomfortable and the horse was passed on. With this one, a retired vet sat by the field and studied it for a couple of days. It also came right.

I relate these tales not to say "do it" but to show how there are very obscure things that horses have happen to them, that are virtually impossible to get to the root of particularly if you do not know the history and if it has been passed round several owners.

Better to have the horse PTS than risk injury to the rider.
 
Thank you all for such kind replies - he will be put to sleep next week. We have invited his first owner who had him from a foal - 4 years to come and say goodbye if they wish.

Once again - I thank you all (bar one :) ) for not being judgemental about the situation and giving me that push I needed to actually do it. xx
 
unknownn said:
Thank you all for such kind replies - he will be put to sleep next week. We have invited his first owner who had him from a foal - 4 years to come and say goodbye if they wish.

Once again - I thank you all (bar one :) ) for not being judgemental about the situation and giving me that push I needed to actually do it. xx
Click to expand...

ETA: First owner does not wish to come see him so he will be PTS next week as planned.. kennels will then autopsy him. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top