mary pearce
Member
Has anyone ever had to sign a disclaimer half way through having their horse PTS? I am deeply scarred by the severity of such unexpected, conduct.
PTS
- Thread starter mary pearce
- Start date
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
No never, did something go wrong? Hope you are okay.
PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
I've never had to sign anything, before or after... and definitely not part way through. ? that doesn't sound at all correct.
mary pearce
Member
I have been trying to find some peace in what happened, but cant. The decision itself was traumatic enough, but after sedating them, the vet pulled out a disclaimer and said, sign here or I cannot continue. On top of the decision itself I am really disturbed by it.
mary pearce
Member
None of the paperwork adds up, and when I had stopped crying and examined it, I saw that my little pony had an asterisk mark beside his name, but not my mare, so something is not right and its pain on top of pain not knowing why.
gallopingby
Well-Known Member
Maybe something new, l was asked to sign one recently, not for a horse but had never been asked to sign anything previously for horses or other animals.
mary pearce
Member
It was not nice, surely it should have mentioned beforehand, not half way through.
Redders
Well-Known Member
As a vet (small animal) we get owners to sign consent forms for any treatment, including euthanasia. It used to be that implied verbal consent was fine, but now a lot of vets ask for a signed form in case of disputes of ownership and that sort of thing. It was likely a consent form rather than a disclaimer that you were asked to sign. I am very sorry for your loss, and understand how very hard the decision was for you. Regarding the asterix, it was probably some mental note for the vet about nothing particularly important for you but paper work based for the vet to compete when they got back, but I think it might make you feel better to maybe call your vets office and ask them what it meant, so you can put your mind at ease. They won’t mind doing this at all
mary pearce
Member
Hi, thank you. I have already asked the vets this and why the drugs used were only sedatives. They have refused to correspond any further with me.
Redders
Well-Known Member
Have they said they refuse to correspond with you further, and why? If you are concerned, then my suggestion would be to write to the practice manager with your queries, that is usually the best way to get queries resolved because the vets are generally not at a desk or near a phone, and the manager can look into things for you x
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I have had quite a few PTS and the vet has always sedated them first. Sometimes it has been a case of the vet arriving to a horse in distress and just getting sedation straight into them before we even discuss anything. Was this a planned PTS on a very calm horse or an emergency on a horse in pain? I have never been asked to sign anything for a horse however I am well known at my vets and they have a lot of my history on record so perhaps they don't need to worry about ownership.
The last one that was PTS was in the worst distress ever.. Vet got the sedative in with no questions or discussion. Her instruction over the phone when I called them was PTS asap (for the horse's sake) She asked after the horse had been sedated if I was sure I wanted to PTS. I suppose if she didn't know me she could have asked me to sign. The space between sedation and PTS gave me the chance to change my mind. It was also the breathing space to allow me to say goodbye to my now calm horse. Some owners may have considered alternatives when the horse was sedated.
The asterix may mean something about the handling. One of mine has, quite rightly, got a black mark against his name as he is a pig to sedate. I am happy with that. It is for everyone's safety.
None of that may apply to you it is only a suggestion.
I am sorry you lost your horse and the distress it has caused you.
mary pearce
Member
Yes they did refuse, they have said there is nothing more to say or conclude. Yet there are many unanswered questions. Valid questions regarding conduct, paper work and drugs, drugs that my old vet said are not used to PTS, merely sedatives.
Why the little pony was marked up. Why was his passport stamped at the back without our knowledge in January when he had his injections. (regarding exclusion from human consumption) No vet has ever signed this prior.
Why was there only mention of two drugs in the conformation email received afterwards at my request, but now after asking questions yesterday a third drug, being the correct one, has now been added on new paperwork.
It is soul destroying to say the least x
Why the little pony was marked up. Why was his passport stamped at the back without our knowledge in January when he had his injections. (regarding exclusion from human consumption) No vet has ever signed this prior.
Why was there only mention of two drugs in the conformation email received afterwards at my request, but now after asking questions yesterday a third drug, being the correct one, has now been added on new paperwork.
It is soul destroying to say the least x
mary pearce
Member
mary pearce
Member
I understand you and thanks for the time to comment, but pulling paperwork out half way through when we were already upset, does not sit correctly with me.
We had owned them for near on 14 years and the small marked up one was very quiet. The point is why are the vets unwilling to answer direct questions. But fast to send a bill the same day. Very upsetting indeed.
We had owned them for near on 14 years and the small marked up one was very quiet. The point is why are the vets unwilling to answer direct questions. But fast to send a bill the same day. Very upsetting indeed.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
all my horse passports have been requested by the vets and signed accordingly. I think that is normal practice?
I know how upset you are ( have been there) but can you perhaps list the drugs used (which should be detailed on your bill) It may be easier then for any vets on here to explain their purpose.
A lot of people on here have had experience of PTS and can probably help you with a little more info. Was your pony in distress, was this an emergency callout or a long planned PTS?
I know how upset you are ( have been there) but can you perhaps list the drugs used (which should be detailed on your bill) It may be easier then for any vets on here to explain their purpose.
A lot of people on here have had experience of PTS and can probably help you with a little more info. Was your pony in distress, was this an emergency callout or a long planned PTS?
honetpot
Well-Known Member
You need a bill that is itemized, mine lists all drugs by name and the amounts given, and the cost.
There is sometimes an inclusive charge for the procedure, otherwise syringes and items used, like tubing are listed.
When it's a planned PTS, mine usually bring the drugs in a prefilled syringe, but when its and emergency they be just using what they have in the car, so I suppose there is always a chance they may not have enough of one particular drug.
I have never been asked to sign a consent for PTS, without paperwork, its implied consent, there will be a record of the appointment, the fact you are there and are watching would show consent.
I am really sorry it's been a tough time for you, it's never easy.
There is sometimes an inclusive charge for the procedure, otherwise syringes and items used, like tubing are listed.
When it's a planned PTS, mine usually bring the drugs in a prefilled syringe, but when its and emergency they be just using what they have in the car, so I suppose there is always a chance they may not have enough of one particular drug.
I have never been asked to sign a consent for PTS, without paperwork, its implied consent, there will be a record of the appointment, the fact you are there and are watching would show consent.
I am really sorry it's been a tough time for you, it's never easy.
southerncomfort
Well-Known Member
When I had our little Welsh B PTS a few years ago now, the attending vet had a sheet with a few standard questions regarding what I wanted done with her afterwards etc, and was then asked to sign to give consent for the vet to proceed. She wasn't sedated but that was because she had a catastrophic leg injury and could barely stand.
I had another PTS a couple of years ago and she was sedated prior to being euthanised and I was glad of it because she knew nothing about it and went very peacefully.
I'm with a different practice now and they don't require written consent, however it seem quite a sensible thing from the vets point of view though and not something that I'm concerned about.
You are understandably upset and traumatised as its a horrible thing to go through. In the kindest possible way, the guilt at having to make the decision and the overwhelming grief may be slightly clouding your view of the vets conduct on the day. It does sound like the practice have tried to answer your questions and reassure you.
Maybe give it a few days to allow emotions to settle and if you still feel the same way write a letter to the practice manager to outline your concerns.
Above all be kind to yourself. When the first pony I mentioned above was PTS I suffered depression and horrible flashbacks for a long time because it was so traumatic. You need to try and find a way to be at peace with it all and remember that above all you made a kind and selfless decision that prevented the pony from suffering.
I had another PTS a couple of years ago and she was sedated prior to being euthanised and I was glad of it because she knew nothing about it and went very peacefully.
I'm with a different practice now and they don't require written consent, however it seem quite a sensible thing from the vets point of view though and not something that I'm concerned about.
You are understandably upset and traumatised as its a horrible thing to go through. In the kindest possible way, the guilt at having to make the decision and the overwhelming grief may be slightly clouding your view of the vets conduct on the day. It does sound like the practice have tried to answer your questions and reassure you.
Maybe give it a few days to allow emotions to settle and if you still feel the same way write a letter to the practice manager to outline your concerns.
Above all be kind to yourself. When the first pony I mentioned above was PTS I suffered depression and horrible flashbacks for a long time because it was so traumatic. You need to try and find a way to be at peace with it all and remember that above all you made a kind and selfless decision that prevented the pony from suffering.
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite
Well-Known Member
Sooohh......... my understanding is, having had three in my life now PTS by injection, is that what happens is that firstly the vet administers a general sedative, just to calm the horse down and relax it - just the same as if you were doing minor/standing stuff like teeth.
Then the vet inserts a cannula, if I remember rightly this goes into jugular vein in the neck, and the next stage then commences, i.e. deeper sedation - or Part 1 of the 2 doses that are necessary - but not enough to be a fatal dose, basically. This is the stage at which I suspect the vet asked OP to sign a disclaimer....... ?? Because this is basically "the point of no return"; when the vet injects the final syringe then that is the dose that is the fatal dose and should the owner change their mind at that point then there is nothing that can be done to reverse it.
Feel very sorry for OP; but not knowing the circumstances it is difficult to comment. It may, and I say "may", have been the case that there was a need to allow space after the first syringe, before the second (fatal dose) was administered, to perhaps allow the owner to take stock and think about things, but if this is what happened it is not the normal procedure. I cannot remember TBH whether I signed a form or not, prior to the PTS. But then again, perhaps I did......
Basically ANY PTS procedure by injection is going to involve some form of sedative because what happens is that the dosage is increased to what essentially is a fatal level (sorry, this isn't an easy subject at the best of tmies); OP if you do have the paperwork from the vets you may see something called "Somulose" which is basically the drug that is used to PTS. So I'm not sure what you mean when you say the drugs were "only sedatives". ANY PTS procedure is basically an overdosage of sedative.
So sorry this has happened to you; if you are not happy with what has occurred I would ask to speak to the Senior Partner at your vet practice as I feel all this should have been explained to you beforehand, and it obviously hasn't been. If you are still not happy I would refer the matter to the Royal Veterinary College. However at the end of the day, PTS is never going to be an easy decision; and for whatever reason, it had to be done and you had to deal with it. Would you permit me to say to you that you were the best owner possible; you made a hugely tough choice and carried it through, and at the end of the day - whilst the actual procedural aspects of what happened give rise to questions - for your horse, on the day, he/she wouldn't have known anything but gently going off into a deep sleep.
Then the vet inserts a cannula, if I remember rightly this goes into jugular vein in the neck, and the next stage then commences, i.e. deeper sedation - or Part 1 of the 2 doses that are necessary - but not enough to be a fatal dose, basically. This is the stage at which I suspect the vet asked OP to sign a disclaimer....... ?? Because this is basically "the point of no return"; when the vet injects the final syringe then that is the dose that is the fatal dose and should the owner change their mind at that point then there is nothing that can be done to reverse it.
Feel very sorry for OP; but not knowing the circumstances it is difficult to comment. It may, and I say "may", have been the case that there was a need to allow space after the first syringe, before the second (fatal dose) was administered, to perhaps allow the owner to take stock and think about things, but if this is what happened it is not the normal procedure. I cannot remember TBH whether I signed a form or not, prior to the PTS. But then again, perhaps I did......
Basically ANY PTS procedure by injection is going to involve some form of sedative because what happens is that the dosage is increased to what essentially is a fatal level (sorry, this isn't an easy subject at the best of tmies); OP if you do have the paperwork from the vets you may see something called "Somulose" which is basically the drug that is used to PTS. So I'm not sure what you mean when you say the drugs were "only sedatives". ANY PTS procedure is basically an overdosage of sedative.
So sorry this has happened to you; if you are not happy with what has occurred I would ask to speak to the Senior Partner at your vet practice as I feel all this should have been explained to you beforehand, and it obviously hasn't been. If you are still not happy I would refer the matter to the Royal Veterinary College. However at the end of the day, PTS is never going to be an easy decision; and for whatever reason, it had to be done and you had to deal with it. Would you permit me to say to you that you were the best owner possible; you made a hugely tough choice and carried it through, and at the end of the day - whilst the actual procedural aspects of what happened give rise to questions - for your horse, on the day, he/she wouldn't have known anything but gently going off into a deep sleep.
Last edited:
Elf On A Shelf
...
I have never been asked to sign a consent form nor disclaimer for pts but then none of my horses gave me a choice in what needed done. I think I am lucky in that respect, there were no other options or outcomes and so did not have any time to think about the issue. My job does harden me to it every so slightly though it is never easy.
The one that bugged me was getting an email bill from the vet the day after Mr F was pts demanding it be paid in full within 7 days as they have a business to run, overheads to pay and were struggling from covid. Yes I get that, I totally do and I ALWAYS pay my bills as soon as I am able to but to be quite so harsh about it? No need. I did also ask for them to keep some of his tail for me which they never did.
The one that bugged me was getting an email bill from the vet the day after Mr F was pts demanding it be paid in full within 7 days as they have a business to run, overheads to pay and were struggling from covid. Yes I get that, I totally do and I ALWAYS pay my bills as soon as I am able to but to be quite so harsh about it? No need. I did also ask for them to keep some of his tail for me which they never did.
mary pearce
Member
Thank you for your comments. So, as one of you has said there are two injections, can anyone explain to me why the need for three drugs then, two sedatives and the main drug that has now been spotted an inch above a barely visible faded link, on an otherwise well printed page above the two sedatives sat beneath it. Yet only two syringes were used?
I understand each practice may have its own way of dealing with paperwork, but, a person should be told in advance, not half way through in front of an already upset family.
Much of the paperwork now in my possession does not add up, times, dates, names and the asterisk mark used on a perfectly well behaved pony? the vets are refusing to comment, in fact have closed their doors to any further questions.
If everything was correct why the reluctance to answer valid questions. Questions that would help us let go and offer some peace.
Thanks for the information so far, and yes I agree when four people are present who had to make a decision based on terrible circumstances, why the need for a disclaimer.
I understand each practice may have its own way of dealing with paperwork, but, a person should be told in advance, not half way through in front of an already upset family.
Much of the paperwork now in my possession does not add up, times, dates, names and the asterisk mark used on a perfectly well behaved pony? the vets are refusing to comment, in fact have closed their doors to any further questions.
If everything was correct why the reluctance to answer valid questions. Questions that would help us let go and offer some peace.
Thanks for the information so far, and yes I agree when four people are present who had to make a decision based on terrible circumstances, why the need for a disclaimer.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Was the procedure successful and calm (for the horse)?
paddi22
Well-Known Member
it's so traumatic making the choice to PTS and it's easy to get hung up on details in your grief. The mark beside the name could be a simple reminder for the vet. I had a pony pts and there was a mark on the paperwork beside its name, when I queried it is was a note because the pony actually required more sedatives and other stuff as it was older and had a weaker heart. it took longer to pts than the younger horse I had done before it. I got the bill back and it had more stuff on it than it usually would, but I could see the vet was having to make a call on the fly about what was needed gauging by the reaction of the pony in front of it. I have had horses put to sleep where I asked what was being used and the vet described it as a 'strong sedative' but I assume that was simplifying it for me?
Vets put horses to sleep every day as a day to day job and, saying this kindly, they don't usually have conspiracy theories behind the process, and paperwork errors do happen. We get in very old horses as rescues that get PTS all the time and sometime the vets do make errors and it goes wrong on the day and is extremely distressing, but if you have a vet practice you trust then you have to assume they are making the best call that they can on the day. from your post it sounds like it is the
paperwork errors that are causing you the stress though?
Was the PTS an emergency one? and did the pony got to sleep peacefully?
Vets put horses to sleep every day as a day to day job and, saying this kindly, they don't usually have conspiracy theories behind the process, and paperwork errors do happen. We get in very old horses as rescues that get PTS all the time and sometime the vets do make errors and it goes wrong on the day and is extremely distressing, but if you have a vet practice you trust then you have to assume they are making the best call that they can on the day. from your post it sounds like it is the
paperwork errors that are causing you the stress though?
Was the PTS an emergency one? and did the pony got to sleep peacefully?
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Mary, I have been present at one where three drugs were used, a sedative, a lethal anaesthetic dose and a heart stopper. The consent form is normal-ish, and signed before any irrevocable step is taken, so after initial sedation (done as much to prevent the owner's upset from disturbing the horse as anything) is the right timing. I'm sorry the vet was brusque, but I'd rather they got the horse bit right and the human bit wrong than the other way around. The billing was insensitive but the practice might have cash flow issues after Covid, I know two of my local practices have and one has sold out because of it.
You are understandably very upset about the death of your two ponies, but when the shock and hurt have faded I hope you will be able to see that the only thing that really matters is that they had a calm and peaceful end. You did them the last and greatest kindness any owner can do.
.
You are understandably very upset about the death of your two ponies, but when the shock and hurt have faded I hope you will be able to see that the only thing that really matters is that they had a calm and peaceful end. You did them the last and greatest kindness any owner can do.
.
Last edited:
Kat
Well-Known Member
I know this is hard and it is an upsetting time but have a think about what you want to achieve and why your questions matter.
If the animals were put to sleep calmly then does it matter what drugs were used, how many needles there were or whether there is an asterisk against a name? It won't change anything now.
The consent form sounds like good practice to me, especially if it was not a situation where PTS was the only option and required urgently.
I understand that you are upset but take a step back and consider where you are going with this, what you want to achieve and whether it makes a difference.
If the animals were put to sleep calmly then does it matter what drugs were used, how many needles there were or whether there is an asterisk against a name? It won't change anything now.
The consent form sounds like good practice to me, especially if it was not a situation where PTS was the only option and required urgently.
I understand that you are upset but take a step back and consider where you are going with this, what you want to achieve and whether it makes a difference.
meleeka
Well-Known Member
I remember being asked to sign a consent form for my dog. I think it’s pretty standard but should be done as soon as pts is decided.
It sounds as though you’ve gone all guns blazing to the vet and they are now refusing to speak to you because you were rude to them.
It won’t change the outcome, but if you really think there’s been malpractice, contact the practice manager/ governing body and make an official complaint.
It sounds as though you’ve gone all guns blazing to the vet and they are now refusing to speak to you because you were rude to them.
It won’t change the outcome, but if you really think there’s been malpractice, contact the practice manager/ governing body and make an official complaint.
mary pearce
Member
No I did not go all guns blazing, on the contrary I have been very calm and polite, assumption is not a helpful answer. But thanks for taking the time to write.
At the end of the day, as a client why is it so hard to answer simple questions which I have a right to ask.
At the end of the day, as a client why is it so hard to answer simple questions which I have a right to ask.
teddypops
Well-Known Member
The part of the passport that is signed not for human consumption has to be signed by a vet if pony has had drugs such as Bute, however as normal as it is, they usually tell you as the owner has to sign it too. I’m sorry for your loss and heartbreak (I had one pts a year ago, so know how it feels), but I think you are reading a lot into what is probably nothing sinister because of your upset. A lot of vets use consent forms, and maybe they just realised you hadn’t signed it.
TheMule
Well-Known Member
This is really the most important question.
Did the horse suffer because of the vet's negligence?
If the answer is 'No' then I'm not really sure what result you're looking to achieve here?
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
You haven't answered our repeated question about whether their end was calm and peaceful, Mary.
Assuming that it was, because you haven't said not, can't you see that is far more important than an asterisk by a name or how many syringes drugs were given in?
You're a new poster and we know nothing about you, but I'm going to make an assumption that you are displacing your grief at the ponies' deaths into anger at the vet who carried it out, and it's helping none of you.
Are you challenging the cost? Because unless you are, I can't see what it matters what drugs are on the invoice. If you are, just pay what you think you owe and ask in writing for an explanation of the rest.
Are you planning to sue for negligence? If so, then I can see why your vets won't take your calls, they will need everything in writing for their insurers.
If it wasn't for knowing how grief can affect people, I would be baffled about being upset that the vet records have an asterisk against a horse name. If the horse was treated correctly what on earth does it matter? It doesn't, but you need something to fight at the moment to assuage your own grief. That's a completely normal part of the grieving process and I'm very sorry you are going through it.
Many vets have a hard time being asked to kill animals. If your ponies had a kind and peaceful end, please consider the effect of your actions on the veterinary practice and the vets who have to do a job must of us would not countenance.
.
Assuming that it was, because you haven't said not, can't you see that is far more important than an asterisk by a name or how many syringes drugs were given in?
You're a new poster and we know nothing about you, but I'm going to make an assumption that you are displacing your grief at the ponies' deaths into anger at the vet who carried it out, and it's helping none of you.
Are you challenging the cost? Because unless you are, I can't see what it matters what drugs are on the invoice. If you are, just pay what you think you owe and ask in writing for an explanation of the rest.
Are you planning to sue for negligence? If so, then I can see why your vets won't take your calls, they will need everything in writing for their insurers.
If it wasn't for knowing how grief can affect people, I would be baffled about being upset that the vet records have an asterisk against a horse name. If the horse was treated correctly what on earth does it matter? It doesn't, but you need something to fight at the moment to assuage your own grief. That's a completely normal part of the grieving process and I'm very sorry you are going through it.
Many vets have a hard time being asked to kill animals. If your ponies had a kind and peaceful end, please consider the effect of your actions on the veterinary practice and the vets who have to do a job must of us would not countenance.
.
mary pearce
Member
No the horse did not suffer, but the paperwork is pitted with mistakes and I see no reason not to answer simple everyday questions as a polite paying client.