mary pearce
Member
Thank you x
PTS
- Thread starter mary pearce
- Start date
mary pearce
Member
Because the human consumption part states, to be signed on new ownership and we had had fourteen years. It doesn't matter now does it. So thanks anyway.
paddi22
Well-Known Member
but the vet had given the pony drugs that would be lethal if eaten by a human. the vet would have no control over what you decided to do with the body, they HAD to sign it out of the human food chain as correct practice.
mary pearce
Member
It was signed January 15 2021 when he had his jabs, I only noticed this a few days ago, as no vet has ever gone into the back of his passport in the past. Equally the bit next to it where the new owner should sign beside the vet, is blank, so its not just grief. thank you anyway.
mary pearce
Member
See no reason not to answer logical questions.
teddypops
Well-Known Member
Why did you not sign it? Why did you not get the vet to sign it when you first got the horse? Why do you think the vet is at fault?
Apizz2019
Well-Known Member
Firstly, I'm very sorry for your loss.
Our pony was pts in Feb 2020.
I didn't have to sign a disclaimer but have been with the same vet practice for a good few years. Our pony being pts was discussed and organised a few days before the sad event.
The vets signed the back of our boys passport when they visited a few months previously to give vaccinations - I believe this is now standard practice, unless explicitly stated otherwise, to ensure they don't enter the food chain.
I'd imagine, given the sue culture we live in, that many vets nowadays ask for consent forms to be signed, to ensure there can be no comeback from clients at a later date, though signing midway through being pts does seem a little insensitive.
That said, your post doesn't say if this was planned euthanasia or an emergency, nor how long you've been with the practice - all of these would influence the situation.
I do agree however, that your queries should be answered. I'm not sure why your practice won't give you the answers you need to give closure to the matters concerning you.
What I will say is, I don't believe euthanasia is something a vet ever sees as just part of their job. The vet who put our pony to sleep stayed with me while I kissed our pony goodbye, she clutched his headcollar and cried with me. Her tears and the compassion she showed will stay with me forever.
The practice sent me a lovely card and told me not to worry about the bill and to call them to pay when I was ready to. They also organised disposal for me and even the chap who took him away was compassionate and gave me a hug and treated our boy with the utmost of respect.
I echo what others have said about reaching out for support. I'm very resilient, nothing really bothers me, but this broke me. I've never felt a sorrow like it and I got professional help.
Sending you strength and love - you're not alone.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
I hope that a few days' distance from the sad event has given you a chance to look back and be glad that the pony went peacefully and be grateful for that. I have had 2 pts by injection and I can't say that either procedure was smooth or peaceful, despite the fact that there was no other option left for either horse, which is why all my other horses have been shot when pts became necessary.
It is very sad when a beloved pet has come to the end of its life, whatever the reason. I always try to make sure that there isn't a crowd of upset bystanders and the professional can get on with the job unhindered.
As Red-1 says, it sounds as if your relationship with the vet practice has broken down and you will both be happier if you change practice. I hope there is another equine practice not too far away from you.
It is very sad when a beloved pet has come to the end of its life, whatever the reason. I always try to make sure that there isn't a crowd of upset bystanders and the professional can get on with the job unhindered.
As Red-1 says, it sounds as if your relationship with the vet practice has broken down and you will both be happier if you change practice. I hope there is another equine practice not too far away from you.
mary pearce
Member
I have been using vets for 14 years for him and no one ever said it needed signing, but then there was never any new ownership.
mary pearce
Member
Thank you for your kind words, I was not offered any words of comfort, the whole thing was very unexpected and cold, what I would have given for some compassion that day. I feel destroyed by the whole conduct. Thank you for being real.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
why would anyone need to say. It is in black and white in the passport for the owner to read and comply with.
Looking at one of my Pet ID passports it says, section 1X
medicinal treatment,
excludes the animal from slaughter for human consumption etc must be re confirmed when animal changes hands
date and place, name and sig of owner, name and sig of vet
This is a declaration of:- I as the owner declare the animal is not intended for human consumption.
(There is a part underneath where it can be signed that the animal is intended for human consumption)
many official documents need the owner's signature. You may not have been aware of it and no harm done but it is really not the fault of the vet who simply complied with the law by completing it.
brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
That is very unusual - were decisions made there and then with some uncertainty and reluctance? It sounds almost as though you disagreed with the PTS and events are replaying in your head now. The length of time you have been with the practice makes this seem even stranger. Were you in shock at the outcome of the visit? None of this is very clear and you seem fixated on trivia, which is what we aren't getting the relevance of.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I really am confused why the vet legally doing what is required in order to give medication is a problem.
Cherryblossom
Well-Known Member
Part of me wonders whether it became clear to the vet during the process of PTS that you were likely to blame/go after them.
I work in medicine and for some things verbal consent is enough but if you anticipate the person causing difficulties or claiming they weren’t told of XYZ then I’d always get written consent so it’s there in black and white. I wonder whether your vet initially thought they should get the bad bit done and have you fill in the paperwork afterwards, but then realised that was going to be a bad idea.
I don’t say this to get at you, but unless there’s a lot you’re not telling, your reaction seems extremely out of proportion. I wonder if you’re having an extreme grief reaction, which is totally understandable, and are clutching at whatever you can to be able to blame someone for losing your horse. At the end of the day, you made sure your friend of 14 years didn’t suffer for any longer, they were let go gently and with their person there and they’re not living a life of pain. You did the right thing by them, and your vet did too; even if they didn’t manage you well, it sounds like they managed your horse well. And that surely is the most important thing.
I work in medicine and for some things verbal consent is enough but if you anticipate the person causing difficulties or claiming they weren’t told of XYZ then I’d always get written consent so it’s there in black and white. I wonder whether your vet initially thought they should get the bad bit done and have you fill in the paperwork afterwards, but then realised that was going to be a bad idea.
I don’t say this to get at you, but unless there’s a lot you’re not telling, your reaction seems extremely out of proportion. I wonder if you’re having an extreme grief reaction, which is totally understandable, and are clutching at whatever you can to be able to blame someone for losing your horse. At the end of the day, you made sure your friend of 14 years didn’t suffer for any longer, they were let go gently and with their person there and they’re not living a life of pain. You did the right thing by them, and your vet did too; even if they didn’t manage you well, it sounds like they managed your horse well. And that surely is the most important thing.
brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
The more I think about it, the more I get a feeling of 'partial refund'. The professionals have decided trying to be reasonable is going nowhere and the OP has come here looking for backup.
Having heard first-hand recounts of 'after the event previously satisfied customers becoming suddenly dissatisfied' and only being pacified with a refund...
Having heard first-hand recounts of 'after the event previously satisfied customers becoming suddenly dissatisfied' and only being pacified with a refund...
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
So sorry for your loss op.
I agree with the majority though that the signature is perfectly normal. Would you expect permission to be sought before stamping the vaccination page? I think it’s the exact same thing.
I did once argue a euthanasia bill, well my OH did on my behalf. It took one call and the bill was wiped, along with a huge apology. In this situation though, to me it sounds like the vet came and did the job required. I do think the signature on a disclaimer (something I’ve never seen or signed) should have been done prior to the start of the procedure.
I think you could be driving yourself mad over this and maybe need to try and let it go for your own sanity.
Be kind to yourself, you need time to grieve and I almost feel you can’t face that and are keeping going with this fight to put off the inevitable?
I agree with the majority though that the signature is perfectly normal. Would you expect permission to be sought before stamping the vaccination page? I think it’s the exact same thing.
I did once argue a euthanasia bill, well my OH did on my behalf. It took one call and the bill was wiped, along with a huge apology. In this situation though, to me it sounds like the vet came and did the job required. I do think the signature on a disclaimer (something I’ve never seen or signed) should have been done prior to the start of the procedure.
I think you could be driving yourself mad over this and maybe need to try and let it go for your own sanity.
Be kind to yourself, you need time to grieve and I almost feel you can’t face that and are keeping going with this fight to put off the inevitable?
paddi22
Well-Known Member
It seems like you were very unhappy with the manner and approach of the vet on the day. That is a valid point if it caused you upset and you have constructive feedback that could give them to improve the process. But it seems like you are trying to get back at the vet and punish by searching for these paperwork issues. And everything you have mentioned they did has been completely normal and correct behaviour by them.
Ownedby4horses
...
OP, I just don’t understand what the issue is. Ive always filled out the excemption bit on all my horse’s passports as soon as I got them (for me it is usual to flick through the whole passport when I’ve got a horse, as I would imagine it is for most. I signed the excemption bit for two reasons, I’m a veggie, so it’s just too weird to think about any of my horses ending up in the food chain and also, I’m a realist, I’ve owned horses for a very long time and with past experience, most horses will at some point have something from the vet that will exclude them from the food chain. I had a new livery and the vet signed the exception page immediately during vaccination. Every vet I’ve ever had has checked that page is signed, so it is routine.
With regards to the vet, they’ve done absolutely nothing wrong, I don’t believe you have explained if it was planned PTS or emergency yet? I’ve had many animals PTS, the last was last July, while in the UK, it was an emergency and the priority was sedation and pain relief to allow me to sign the authorisation and for me to make absolute certain that was my decision and to say farewell (there was an extremely small percentage chance of recovery). The vet that put my lovely boy to sleep was noticeably traumatised as I was so incredibly upset and she was in floods of tears too and despite social distancing, we just had to hug each other (we were both in masks) and I told her how very grateful I was that she was able to end his pain for him.
Do not underestimate the effect that putting an animal to sleep can have on a vet. It may well have been that the vet in question finds that the way that they only can deal with having to carry that out, as being ”business like”, rather than collapsing into pieces themselves.
I can’t recall the figures but there is an incredibly high percentage of suicides in vets and I can imagine dealing with PTS and owners in that awful situation is a big part of that. I would really hate to know how your vet is currently feeling, as you seem to be pursuing something that isn’t obvious.
The Asterix for me - the most logical reason for me would simply be an office mark, a way of signifying that the animal has been PTS, so that they didn’t cause any distress sending out vaccination reminders etc.
Youve been given some really good advice on here already and I am sure your heart and head is all over the place, i definitely would recommend using the BHS service to talk to someone and help you come to terms with your grief.
You have my thoughts and prayers at this sad time. x
With regards to the vet, they’ve done absolutely nothing wrong, I don’t believe you have explained if it was planned PTS or emergency yet? I’ve had many animals PTS, the last was last July, while in the UK, it was an emergency and the priority was sedation and pain relief to allow me to sign the authorisation and for me to make absolute certain that was my decision and to say farewell (there was an extremely small percentage chance of recovery). The vet that put my lovely boy to sleep was noticeably traumatised as I was so incredibly upset and she was in floods of tears too and despite social distancing, we just had to hug each other (we were both in masks) and I told her how very grateful I was that she was able to end his pain for him.
Do not underestimate the effect that putting an animal to sleep can have on a vet. It may well have been that the vet in question finds that the way that they only can deal with having to carry that out, as being ”business like”, rather than collapsing into pieces themselves.
I can’t recall the figures but there is an incredibly high percentage of suicides in vets and I can imagine dealing with PTS and owners in that awful situation is a big part of that. I would really hate to know how your vet is currently feeling, as you seem to be pursuing something that isn’t obvious.
The Asterix for me - the most logical reason for me would simply be an office mark, a way of signifying that the animal has been PTS, so that they didn’t cause any distress sending out vaccination reminders etc.
Youve been given some really good advice on here already and I am sure your heart and head is all over the place, i definitely would recommend using the BHS service to talk to someone and help you come to terms with your grief.
You have my thoughts and prayers at this sad time. x
brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
Ownedby4horses
...
Ha, you got me! Love the pic! My head is currently a mix of English and Danish with learning the language and my English spelling is now all over the place. x
Mrs. Jingle
Well-Known Member
It has occurred to me since previous post, that perhaps you had one of two choices going on, and that is why you are having difficulty moving on. You do not give any detail and unfortunately that will lead to you get some not very helpful replies when people are not given the full facts about why your horse was PTS? It would perhaps be helpful and useful for those of us that have tried to help with your concerns and grief so far if you could clarify?
One: the vet came out to your horse and whatever he found when he examined the horse he felt very strongly that the horse should immediately be PTS - you may not have entirely agreed with his opinion. A vet will never 'tell' someone to PTS an animal but will give their opinion and quite clearly tell you by not PTS the animal is unnecessarily suffering a great deal of pain etc. Perhaps this is why you are obviously not happy with the vet who PTS for you?
or
Two: For your own personal reasons you wanted your horse PTS but when your vet arrived and examined the horse they felt you were asking them to PTS a perfectly happy and sound animal. Of course that is your choice, but a vet can refuse in which case you would have to source another vet to PTS for you, or they may agree but tell you quite strongly that they are not happy carrying out your wishes. Perhaps this second example is why you are not happy with this vet?
One: the vet came out to your horse and whatever he found when he examined the horse he felt very strongly that the horse should immediately be PTS - you may not have entirely agreed with his opinion. A vet will never 'tell' someone to PTS an animal but will give their opinion and quite clearly tell you by not PTS the animal is unnecessarily suffering a great deal of pain etc. Perhaps this is why you are obviously not happy with the vet who PTS for you?
or
Two: For your own personal reasons you wanted your horse PTS but when your vet arrived and examined the horse they felt you were asking them to PTS a perfectly happy and sound animal. Of course that is your choice, but a vet can refuse in which case you would have to source another vet to PTS for you, or they may agree but tell you quite strongly that they are not happy carrying out your wishes. Perhaps this second example is why you are not happy with this vet?
brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
Ooooh -
The lack of detail makes me wonder what the situation actually was and everyone to these perplexed replies.
brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
Disclaimer - I am sure there are occasionally legitimate complaints arising from an attending vet's actions but these are usually settled behind the scenes quietly and quickly. It'd have to be a seriously bad and definite fault for me to think of questioning a vet and/or asking on a forum without giving specifics.
Mrs. Jingle
Well-Known Member
Ooooh -
The lack of detail makes me wonder what the situation actually was and everyone to these perplexed replies.
I am not trying to make the OP feel uncomfortable about whatever way the decision to PTS arrived, just feel now I have read more from others and on reflection, it does seem a little unfair on those of us who have tried to help and have taken the time to reply not to simply clarify that very important detail.
To me it is the only thing that makes sense why the OP is clinging on to these very minor details to castigate the vet and feel better about the decision if they get answers on purely minor paperwork matters?
Apizz2019
Well-Known Member
I've yet to meet a vet that hasn't been compassionate when the end has come. This is very sad to hear and I'm sorry you didn't have the best experience, if there can ever be a good experience in the most terrible circumstances.
Reaching out to professionals helped me no end. I still have the odd day when I break down over it but it doesn't consume every waking moment quite like it did.
southerncomfort
Well-Known Member
I've found male vets to be quiet and respectful rather than openly comforting.
I guess this could be misconstrued as being uncaring.
Apizz2019
Well-Known Member
You could be right there., although I've found male vets to be openly comforting too, albeit minus tears.
poiuytrewq
Well-Known Member
I don’t think I’d want a vet to try and comfort me. I can hold it together calmly until they leave. If a vet cried I’m not sure I’d handle that... is that weird?!
Griffin
Well-Known Member
OP, I am sorry for the loss of your horse.
I have always had to sign a consent form before having any pet PTS (with the exception of when the hunt has come out) but it has always been in advance of the procedure starting.
I think also vets and veterinary practices can vary in how good they are at these most sensitive of times but that is often not intentional. It must be hard to PTS a much loved pet with their distressed owner there, they only have one chance to get it right. In my experience, I have never had a vet hug me or pat me on the arm (I wouldn't expect them too, especially at the moment) but they have always been very sympathetic.
I had a cat PTS during the first lockdown and it was really upsetting (we had to do it outside in the car park). My cat went very peacefully and it was undoubtedly the right thing for him but doing it outside in full view of anyone who walked past the car park was not the best situation for me. Then I got the bill the next day asking to be paid within seven days due to lack of money and Covid-19. While I was not particularly impressed with that (it seemed a bit callous), it was obviously just their standard bill format and information, it was not intentional.
I think what I am trying to say in a very meandering way is that sometimes we have to try to accept that a good death for the animals we love may still be traumatic for us in different ways.
I have always had to sign a consent form before having any pet PTS (with the exception of when the hunt has come out) but it has always been in advance of the procedure starting.
I think also vets and veterinary practices can vary in how good they are at these most sensitive of times but that is often not intentional. It must be hard to PTS a much loved pet with their distressed owner there, they only have one chance to get it right. In my experience, I have never had a vet hug me or pat me on the arm (I wouldn't expect them too, especially at the moment) but they have always been very sympathetic.
I had a cat PTS during the first lockdown and it was really upsetting (we had to do it outside in the car park). My cat went very peacefully and it was undoubtedly the right thing for him but doing it outside in full view of anyone who walked past the car park was not the best situation for me. Then I got the bill the next day asking to be paid within seven days due to lack of money and Covid-19. While I was not particularly impressed with that (it seemed a bit callous), it was obviously just their standard bill format and information, it was not intentional.
I think what I am trying to say in a very meandering way is that sometimes we have to try to accept that a good death for the animals we love may still be traumatic for us in different ways.