Public sector pensions

[suestowford]

It was unsustainable money-wise and grossly unfair morally for the Public Sector to continue to be paid pensions that the Private Sector, who generate the cash for the Public Sector to exist at all, cannot even dream of.

I know I am cheating by copy & pasting but found this on bbc website. It compares the average pension paid in public sector to the average paid to private sector.

Using a mean average, some £7,800 a year is being paid in a public sector pension compared with £7,467 for a private sector salary-linked pension.


Not that much difference is there?

 

[Mithras]

I know I am cheating by copy & pasting but found this on bbc website. It compares the average pension paid in public sector to the average paid to private sector.

Using a mean average, some £7,800 a year is being paid in a public sector pension compared with £7,467 for a private sector salary-linked pension.


Not that much difference is there?

If its a salary linked private sector pension, there isn't going to be much difference, is there? You would need to compare contributions to get a meaningful comparison, and bear in mind that salary linked private pensions are very rare now. (I don't know anyone who has one).

The days of people taking early retirement on full pensions IMHO cost us dear!

 

[Wundahorse]

I totally agree there are many jobs created in the public sector which have no impact on the delivery of essential services,and these people simply do not understand what front line staff do.If jobs need to be cut because there is no meaningful role for these staff,of which i know of many examples,then so be it.But we do need Doctors,Nurses,allied professionals to assist and treat people,not to mention decent teachers to educate the younger,and maybe not so younger generation.Money for these services needs to be put in the right areas,and not syphoned of to fund unnecessary areas.In my service,all the money we receive to deliver a service has an automatic "cres" saving,which has to go back to fund years of underfunding,otherwise more staff and services will go.The public do not realise that the NHS is being gradually privatised,which means the service will only provide in profitable areas.I am afraid there are many more cuts to come.Perhaps when people really need a service they will think about this,before a time comes when most care is rationed.I fear for my old age as being privy to what is going on,it is very scary.

 

[cptrayes]

I know I am cheating by copy & pasting but found this on bbc website. It compares the average pension paid in public sector to the average paid to private sector.

Using a mean average, some £7,800 a year is being paid in a public sector pension compared with £7,467 for a private sector salary-linked pension.


Not that much difference is there?

There are almost no salary linked pension schemes left in the Country. They are nearly all now defined contribution schemes where the policy holder takes all the risk of poor peformance of the fund, does not know how much he will get until 30 days before he retires, and would have to have a fund of over £300,000* to retire at 65 with full RPI index linking on £7,800 a year with a widows pension. No early retirement for ill health is even possible unless you are dying when you can get an impaired life policy.

THAT'S THE POINT. WHAT YOU HAVE IS NOT AVAILABLE TO PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS YET THEY ARE PAYING FOR YOURS.

Get it now?????


*That's todays figure, by the way. Two years ago annuity rates were at least 10% higher than they are now and they are falling steadily. The more medical advances that we have helping people to live longer, the more money people are going to need in their retirement funds and the more valuable defined benefit schemes like Public Sector pensions become.

 

[Hippona]

THAT'S THE POINT. WHAT YOU HAVE IS NOT AVAILABLE TO PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS YET THEY ARE PAYING FOR YOURS.

Get it now?????

.

I think private sector workers forget that public sector workers are also 'the taxpayer'....so we fund our gold-plated pension with our own contributions then put our 'taxpayer' cap on and fund it again.

Just to make you bring a little bit of sick up CPT....I'm entitled to retired aged 55 with lump sum and pension. No,thank you.

 

[Oliver12]

My husband took redundancy at 55 after paying into a private pension since aged 15. He suspended his pension until his retirement age and spent the next few years working for himself. He is still working at age 68 as his pension is pathetic. He worked for a large telecommunications company all his life which was taken over about two years before his redundancy. The pension fund was plundered by the new company and he received only half of what he would have had had he left just a couple of years earlier. He now receives a pension of about £10,000 which is pretty scandalous considering he paid into it for 40 years.

One daughter works for the NHS and the other works for local government. Even they admit the pension system cannot go on the way it is and both refused to strike.

 

[cptrayes]

I think private sector workers forget that public sector workers are also 'the taxpayer'....so we fund our gold-plated pension with our own contributions then put our 'taxpayer' cap on and fund it again.

Just to make you bring a little bit of sick up CPT....I'm entitled to retired aged 55 with lump sum and pension. No,thank you.

We pay all your tax. What you pay in tax has first of all to be paid in tax by someone who actually produces something that adds a monetary value to the economy. The public sector cannot even begin to exist until the private sector pay tax. ALL your contributions are paid by the private sector taxpayer, yours and your employer's.

It's the generation below you that you are bringing bile to the throats of by crowing of your good fortune, not me. I am equally as fortunate as you.

 

[Hippona]

We pay all your tax. .

Most generous...should be verry healthy looking wageslip just in time for Christmas then....without all the usual deductions......

 

[cptrayes]

Its just the way modern society works Tinselmoo. The Public Sector can't be paid until Private Sector taxpayers pay tax. You only pay tax on your salary because it is easier to tax all employees the same way and compare salaries the same way. It would be exactly the same economically if the Public Sector paid no income tax and NHI and had a salary reduced by the same amount as they would have paid, and the Private Sector taxpayer then paid exactly the same amount less of tax and NI as was not being paid by the Public Sector.

No generosity present or gratitude required, just a bit of reality would be nice

 

[cptrayes]

Its just the way modern society works Tinselmoo. The Public Sector can't be paid until Private Sector taxpayers pay tax. You only pay tax on your salary because it is easier to tax all employees the same way and compare salaries the same way. It would be exactly the same economically if the Public Sector paid no income tax and NHI and had a salary reduced by the same amount as they would have paid, and the Private Sector taxpayer then paid exactly the same amount less of tax and NI as was not being paid by the Public Sector.

No generosity present or gratitude required, just a bit of reality would be nice

Got this wrong of course, there would be no reduction in tax for the Private Sector. The way it would work is this.

Currently PrSE (Private Sector Employee) pays £100 tax to a PuSE-1 (guess ) and PuSE-1 pays £20 of that to PuSE-2.

If PuSE's paid no tax, then PrSE would pay £80 to PuSE-1 and £20 to PrSE-2. No change to the economy, just to a bit of pen-pushing.

See, Public Sector Employees don't really pay anything towards the maintenance of the Public Sector, it's just a figure on a bit of paper passing from one place to another!

 

[skint1]

For the people who are really bothered about this why not wait for a public sector job to come up and then apply for it? Then you too can have a piece of that good pension pie

 

[perfect11s]

Got this wrong of course, there would be no reduction in tax for the Private Sector. The way it would work is this.

Currently PrSE (Private Sector Employee) pays £100 tax to a PuSE-1 (guess ) and PuSE-1 pays £20 of that to PuSE-2.

If PuSE's paid no tax, then PrSE would pay £80 to PuSE-1 and £20 to PrSE-2. No change to the economy, just to a bit of pen-pushing.

See, Public Sector Employees don't really pay anything towards the maintenance of the Public Sector, it's just a figure on a bit of paper passing from one place to another!

Its like banging your head against
a wall they just dont do reality, economics or know when to shut up when they are doing ok.. All the strikes and the moaning will do is polarise the argument and worse make people aware just how well off so many are in the public sector so the symphy there was for them is evaporating, esp from people with the more mundane jobs like cleaners and office staff , shop workers etc with no pension little job security ... so you lot glass houses and stones !!!!

 

[Mithras]

For the people who are really bothered about this why not wait for a public sector job to come up and then apply for it? Then you too can have a piece of that good pension pie

Tried it - couldn't stand working with so much "dead wood" paid more than people who were actually competent, all the meetings about having meetings, doing the jobs of people who spent nearly 50% of their time off sick and weren't disciplined but instead promoted, and the lack of professional challenge. In my field also, it can set back your career as employers will think you have bad habits and won't work hard enough.

I actually worked with one person who had retired early on a full pension at around 52, had been re-employed at an extremely high day rate as a consultant, didn't have a professional practising certificate and hence couldn't do part of his job as a result!

 

[luckyoldme]

Well rather than the somewhat childish response, please give examples of where people pay for the privilege of visiting clients/patients etc, other than the 'caring' professions.

try my partners job. He works 65 hours plus a week and his last employer moved his home base by a two hour drive. This means that on a monday he would have to get up at half past four to travel to work and be there for seven. Then he would be expected to work till ten at night, have nine hours off and start again at seven in the morning. Or my last job where i was forced to park overnight and sleep in laybys... with no toilet facilities. We were both legally pushed to the limit and believe it or not could quite often go two to three days without a shower or hot meal. we have both payed into pensions which are worth nothing. I overheard my boss calling me an f ing slag on the phone because i had worked my legal limit of three 15 hour shifts in a week and had to stop driving after only a thirteen hour day.i could go on for ever but instead of moaning and twisting we both left our jobs and found better employment. Those in the public sector have the same choice as we did.

 

[Mithras]

Well rather than the somewhat childish response, please give examples of where people pay for the privilege of visiting clients/patients etc, other than the 'caring' professions.

Slightly different, but to add some perspective. My husband has a job that initially required him to travel in the UK and abroad occasionally. Now that sales have increased, this has turned into him having to travel anywhere in the world at around one week's notice, and quite often less, to stay there for an indefinate period (however long it takes to fix the problem).

Although obviously all of his travel and hotel and meal expenses are paid, this doesn't compensate for all those incidental expenses incurred by being in a foreign country at insufficient notice to pack properly, phone calls home, personal internet usage, lost booking deposits for things you can no longer make, my paying out on the electrician/heating engineer, etc that I have to get instead of husband fixing it, and so on. I know loads of people in the private sector required to do similar.

 

[Wundahorse]

I think people are comparing like for like when there is little comparison in their individual jobs.Professional staff have to train,take regular exams etc over a period of time in order to qualify,and then have to continue with professional development.The debate was not about what people do,but to put things in a perspective which is not demonstrated in the media.So many lies have been perpetuated that judging what some people here say,they actually believe.The media misrepresent and distort the facts just for the sake of headline news.Most of the media also support this Government too,which is again part of the media spin.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

For the people who are really bothered about this why not wait for a public sector job to come up and then apply for it? Then you too can have a piece of that good pension pie

Son is a self employed plasterer. He did some work for the council a couple of years ago and was offered a job with them. He turned it down because he takes a pride in his work and couldn't bear to work in a department where the standard was so shoddy and grafting for a living was unheard of.
Even perks like sick pay, holiday pay, pension and a shorter working week couldn't tempt him.

 

[Echo Bravo]

Must admit private sector pensions a lot lower than the public sector and their wages lower as well, it will balance out in the end as they lose the goodwill, I'm mean look at what the union bosses are earning and their pensions they won't be losing out. Must admit seeing how many children are still not able to read or write coming through our schools and the worse ever medical care from nurses.

 

[pipsqueek]

Following from the outrage caused by Jeremy Clarksons unfortunate rant about the strikes, I felt inspired to challenge the misnomer perpetrated by the media about so called,"gold plated pensions".Firstly most front line staff will only receive a modest pension,which accounting for inflation will not keep them from the breadline in years to come.NHS senior managers i.e directors,assistant directors,chief executives,and all of that ilk,will get huge pensions,as they earn vast salaries compared to the front line staff who deliver patient care.Most of these managers are usually incompetent practitioners who then make incompetent decisions in their managerial roles,often making massive cut backs to front line services while ensuring their own jobs are preserved. mp's and Ministers also receive platinum encrusted with diamond pensions,protected from inflation,and not necessarily earned over a career span.For instance,if "call me Dave" loses the next election,he is likely to be booted out with a massive pension,for what,serving only 5 years in office.I wont rant about their expenses either,but have to stress that as a community Nurse,i only receive 11p per mile for work mileage.With the price of fuel,the maths do not add up,and i am paying to deliver a service to my patients.I gather Mp's get 50p per mile!There is so much inequality in this great British system,all of it deriving from the top.
I pay around £400 each month into my public sector pension so after 32 years in practice so far,i think my hard working colleagues and i deserve a reasonable pension.All fans of Jeremy Clarkson also need to appreciate that this "buffoon" receives a big salary from the BBC,which i understand as a corporation,makes it a public service.Such hypocrisy.
I realise there are probably people who think all Nurses neglect their patients on the wards,and in the community,but will point out that the Nurse to patient ratio is so low that inevitably they cannot manage the case loads,or provide the service they want to deliver.This is the product of legislation and sweeping cut backs.Do not believe the myth that front line staff have been protected from the cuts.The reality is they are the first to be made redundant,while managers retain their jobs.

Well said wundahorse! I am also a community nurse and having seen a recent pension forecast having paid into it for 20yrs it is hardy gold plated' and at 11 pence per mile our milage pay is a joke! Nurses at our local community hospital are having to apply for their own jobs, luckily this does not affect me, yet!! We are increasingly tied down doing paperwork - required by management to justify where, how long, etc each patient requires, it takes longer than looking after patients....which is why we came into nursing in the first place! Too many managers, seemingly having to justify their jobs by inventing un-necessary paperwork, get rid of half of them - no more inflated salaries, less pensions to pay - result - nurses can go back to looking after patients not paperwork and pensions can be paid to those who work for it!!

 

[cptrayes]

Pipsqueak is 11p a mile all you get, or do you also get an Essential Users lump sum car allowance every year? I have looked up Nurses mileage rates online and I can't find 11p per mile anywhere, in fact I can't find a rate lower than more than twice that, but I can find references to minimum Essential User annual allowances of £900.

Gold plated does not refer to the size of your pension. It refers to the fact that it is linked directly to your salary, that you take no risk on investments going up and down, that you know what it will be long before you retire, that if you become too ill to do your job it will be paid out early, and that once you have got it, it is index linked. None of these things apply to most Private Sector Pensions, which is why they are not described as gold plated unless they are also defined benefit schemes like yours, and they are very, very scarce these days.

Your life expectancy as an educated, well employed female is more than 15 years after a retirement date of 67, which is why only 20 years of contributions cannot come anywhere near paying you a decent size of pension.


I think most people would back your stand to reduce the management layers in the NHS, which have exploded in number under the Labour Government.

 

[pipsqueek]

Pipsqueak is 11p a mile all you get, or do you also get an Essential Users lump sum car allowance every year? I have looked up Nurses mileage rates online and I can't find 11p per mile anywhere, in fact I can't find a rate lower than more than twice that, but I can find references to minimum Essential User annual allowances of £900.

Gold plated does not refer to the size of your pension. It refers to the fact that it is linked directly to your salary, that you take no risk on investments going up and down, that you know what it will be long before you retire, that if you become too ill to do your job it will be paid out early, and that once you have got it, it is index linked. None of these things apply to most Private Sector Pensions, which is why they are not described as gold plated unless they are also defined benefit schemes like yours, and they are very, very scarce these days.

Your life expectancy as a female is around 17 years after a retirement date of 67, which is why only 20 years of contributions cannot come anywhere near paying you a decent size of pension.


I think most people would back your stand to reduce the management layers in the NHS, which have exploded in number under the Labour Government.

wasn't expecting to retire now!! looking at forecast it will be 67 we get a monthly lump sum but that hardly covers wear and tear on my car! not sure which will be worn out first it or me.lol

 

[Wundahorse]

The mileage rate is set to decrease for those who run their own cars from 2013,down to 18p a mile after 2500 work miles,no lump sum etc.I pay for a lease car as i have to do a lot of mileage as i cover a whole county in my job,so need a reliable car.This means i get just 11p per mile.Also had a diktat from our chief executive about not using electricity for anything but the most basic things.Don't forget that bad bankers and stockbrokers created the problems in the private sector through bad investments.Also GB,plundered funds too.If i worked in the private sector i would have no issue paying into an investment for my future pension.Some people choose not to invest in such schemes and then have nothing saved for the future.I do pay a lot into my NHS pension each month so feel i am contributing.As for bad nurse's and teachers,the few give a bad name for the may dedicated staff.As i have stressed there have been so many front-line cutbacks which is directly affecting patient care.This derives from Government policy,not individual practitioners.I also pay tax,quite a bit each month,so again i am still contributing to the economy.This is how the economy works,that is if the Government are savvy enough to do their maths.Why on earth do the Govt. give an expanding country like India millions when they can feed their own poor.If anyone saw a recent docu regarding up and coming Nations like China and India,they should question our Govt. commitment to foreign aid,and look closer to home.GB could be at risk of becoming a third world country.Companies in the UK need to manufacture here,which would provide jobs,pay taxes and boost the economy.Companies such as Joules and Hunter have their products made in places like China,the up and coming super power.

 

[katherine1975]

How have the government afforded to fund the Olympic Games?

 

[Wundahorse]

Guess they borrowed the money from China.

 

[Mithras]

Does anyone wonder how this country used to be able to fund early retirement on final salary pensions, student grants and no student fees, full NHS dental care, and so on, and now cannot? So who spent all the money? And its bad enough now, but how are young people going to save for pensions when they are paying off student loans and tuition fees, when they are required to have a university degree for almost any job?

Its not just the public sector thats badly run, the private sector is full of overpaid, under-performing bosses who earn vastly over-inflated salaries for their performance, permitted by their cronies who hope they will be the next up the greasy pole. The whole country seems to be based too much on people giving other people a leg up and/or a free ride, rather than merit, and everyone wanting a share of the ever decreasing pie, no matter what level of job they do.

 

[Hippona]

I think most people would back your stand to reduce the management layers in the NHS, which have exploded in number under the Labour Government.

You are not wrong there.....too many layers of management justifying their jobs.....and the actual job losses/freezes seem to affect the people actually doing any work of real value.....

In the NHS for instance...ground floor staff can see the wastage...can see where money could be saved...but the contracts that were awarded to provide certain services are 'locked in' ....sometimes it madness. Look at PFI....our local hospitals pay most of their budget on renting their hospital from BBW...the contracts are crippling and money has to be saved - cutting back on staff is the only option left sometimes. Thats why services suffer and mistakes are made......people are stretched, overworked.....still targets have to be met and all the boxes ticked.....

 

[perfect11s]

Does anyone wonder how this country used to be able to fund early retirement on final salary pensions, student grants and no student fees, full NHS dental care, and so on, and now cannot? So who spent all the money? And its bad enough now, but how are young people going to save for pensions when they are paying off student loans and tuition fees, when they are required to have a university degree for almost any job?

Its not just the public sector thats badly run, the private sector is full of overpaid, under-performing bosses who earn vastly over-inflated salaries for their performance, permitted by their cronies who hope they will be the next up the greasy pole. The whole country seems to be based too much on people giving other people a leg up and/or a free ride, rather than merit, and everyone wanting a share of the ever decreasing pie, no matter what level of job they do.

Yes I think you are getting to the nub of it the big PLCs and banks seem to be infested with 3rd rate jumped up acountant CEOs that think they rule the world
and they seem to aided and abetted by their peers.... hopefully share holders will start to ask more questions sometime soon ... oh and on the public sector the same sort of muppets at the top of councils, and health authoritys unnacountable and paying themselves more than the pm and semmingly totaly teflon .... hey im sure we could sort it out

 

[siennamum]

Does anyone wonder how this country used to be able to fund early retirement on final salary pensions, student grants and no student fees, full NHS dental care, and so on, and now cannot? So who spent all the money? And its bad enough now, but how are young people going to save for pensions when they are paying off student loans and tuition fees, when they are required to have a university degree for almost any job?

Its not just the public sector thats badly run, the private sector is full of overpaid, under-performing bosses who earn vastly over-inflated salaries for their performance, permitted by their cronies who hope they will be the next up the greasy pole. The whole country seems to be based too much on people giving other people a leg up and/or a free ride, rather than merit, and everyone wanting a share of the ever decreasing pie, no matter what level of job they do.

I also wonder this. I assume we used to have more people paying tax, because more people were in proper employment - rather than in made up Govt jobs, incapacity benefit etc. We had a manufacturing base, North Sea Oil, and also had things like gold reserves, which Gordon the incompetent flogged losing us approx £7.5bn in the process.

 

[Mithras]

I also wonder this. I assume we used to have more people paying tax, because more people were in proper employment - rather than in made up Govt jobs, incapacity benefit etc. We had a manufacturing base, North Sea Oil, and also had things like gold reserves, which Gordon the incompetent flogged losing us approx £7.5bn in the process.

I think this is correct. Labour created more public sector jobs because those people and their dependents tend to vote Labour, along with those in receipt of benefits. Meanwhile the rest who were motivated by money ran amock in the upper echelons of the private sector while the Government did nothing to control poor performance and massive bonuses (unlike in Germany which is doing rather well in comparison).

Gordon Brown must surely be the worst pm of modern times. The man had only one two very short term proper jobs before entering politcs fgs (one was as a part-time lecturer in Social Policy at Paisley College, the other for as a Scottish Televsion political researcher). He took ten years to complete his PHD in the history of the Labour Party in Scotland at public expense (no student loans or tuition fees for him). He was the MP for the area close to me where a brand new hospital was closed, on which matter he remained entirely silent, yet dyed-in-the-wool Labour supporters still voted blindly for him. Unfortunatley in Scotland the only viable alternative is the even more left wing SNP, which also buys votes.

Whats needed is a strong political figure who can unite the country while demonstrating the need to work very hard for a few years and forego the luxuries to get the country back on its feet. Unfortunately people in this country would rather vote for short term fixes, jobs for the boys and good soundbites.

 

[siennamum]

I think this is correct. Labour created more public sector jobs because those people and their dependents tend to vote Labour, along with those in receipt of benefits. Meanwhile the rest who were motivated by money ran amock in the upper echelons of the private sector while the Government did nothing to control poor performance and massive bonuses (unlike in Germany which is doing rather well in comparison).

Gordon Brown must surely be the worst pm of modern times. The man had only one two very short term proper jobs before entering politcs fgs (one was as a part-time lecturer in Social Policy at Paisley College, the other for as a Scottish Televsion political researcher). He took ten years to complete his PHD in the history of the Labour Party in Scotland at public expense (no student loans or tuition fees for him). He was the MP for the area close to me where a brand new hospital was closed, on which matter he remained entirely silent, yet dyed-in-the-wool Labour supporters still voted blindly for him. Unfortunatley in Scotland the only viable alternative is the even more left wing SNP, which also buys votes.

Whats needed is a strong political figure who can unite the country while demonstrating the need to work very hard for a few years and forego the luxuries to get the country back on its feet. Unfortunately people in this country would rather vote for short term fixes, jobs for the boys and good soundbites.

I think we need to invest in Science and Technology. We would stand a real chance of becoming World Class - assuming we encourage the brightest young people to pursue scientific careers and research. OH no forgot, we are discouraging young people from going to University these days. I despair.