Public sector pensions

[Kittykins]

I do appreciate things are very tough,and unlikely to improve in the foreseeable future,but please do not use this as an excuse to bash public sector workers.The fault lies with bankers and Government.

I don't understand this argument. My hairdresser didn't cause the financial crisis either but she's not going to get her pension contributions paid by the government.

The reality of the situation is that successive governments have spent far more than they've gathered in tax receipts, and they've been doing it for a very long time. We're still doing it now - although the government is theoretically working to reduce the deficit, national debt and year on year spending continue to rise. No-one, not even a government, can spend more than they earn year on year and not get into trouble eventually.

Unfortunately when governments get into trouble the entire country suffers. Those in the private sector because they have to pay more tax for fewer services as more of their money goes to paying off the debt; those in the public sector because the tax intake is going on paying off the debts, leaving less for their salaries. Why is this such a difficult concept?

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

Thanks but I have spent the last 20 years working in the NHS so am well aware of what it provides and what its shortcomings are - its also why I have private medical insurance - which I also pay tax on

Sorry, but this doesnt constitute a Welfare State.
*Everybody* who works pays taxes - no matter where the money comes from - we all pay.
I do hope that you or your family do not need care from Social Services or from the NHS for 2 reasons - the first being that I do not wish ill health onto anyone.
But, also that in the near future, people will have to pay extra for their treatment and long term care. I say Extra, as you already pay in your taxes, and this will have nothing to do with pensions .
Not everyone wastes their medication. And not everyone is a benifit scrounger.

When are you all going to realise that there isn't the money to prop up the 'Welfare State' anymore

I never said everyone is a benefit scrounger and no not everyone wastes their medication but a LOT of people do - how many people on here haven't finished their antibiotics? how many have got a new painkiller etc and haven't finished their old ones and have them sitting in a cupboard somewhere? how many pairs of old crutches etc are there around in peoples houses? it all costs ALL of us - its called waste

I already pay extra for my healthcare - I have private cover - which I also pay tax on - as I am aware of the limitations of the NHS. Its time everyones expectations were more realistic and realised just how much all the care and healthcare they expect on demand costs - not matter how much anyone has paid it it just doesn't cover the costs anymore.

 

[Kittykins]

I'll say it again and I'll keep saying it until you believe me

NO PUBLIC SECTOR WORKER CONTRIBUTES ONE PENNY FROM HIS PUBLIC SECTOR PAY TO FINANCE THE PUBLIC SECTOR.

ALL the money to finance the public sector comes from the private sector.The payment of tax and NI by public setor workers is purely an administrative convenience, it does not contribute a penny to the running of the state, in fact it COSTS money to collect it! Arguably, there would be more money available for the public sector finances if you were all paid a salary which didn't include tax and NI in the first place.

Santa Paws is bang on, by the way.

Public sector taxes are paid out of salaries that have been paid for from the taxes of private sector employees. So all you're doing by paying tax is recycling the money through the system. Think about it: who pays your pay-cheque? The treasury (ultimately). Where does your tax money go? The treasury. So you're just handing back money, not contributing extra funds.

A documentary called "Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story" explains this quite well. I'd recommend watching the whole thing when you have time, but at about 25mins in there is a short sketch which explains why public sector spending does not stimulate the economy. It's not quite the same issue as the question of public sector employees paying tax, but it's serves as a decent enough proxy. The program also talks about wealth creators v's weath consumers at about 20mins.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/britains-trillion-pound-horror-story/4od

 

[Dirtymare]

When are you all going to realise that there isn't the money to prop up the 'Welfare State' anymore

I never said everyone is a benefit scrounger and no not everyone wastes their medication but a LOT of people do - how many people on here haven't finished their antibiotics? how many have got a new painkiller etc and haven't finished their old ones and have them sitting in a cupboard somewhere? how many pairs of old crutches etc are there around in peoples houses? it all costs ALL of us - its called waste

I already pay extra for my healthcare - I have private cover - which I also pay tax on - as I am aware of the limitations of the NHS. Its time everyones expectations were more realistic and realised just how much all the care and healthcare they expect on demand costs - not matter how much anyone has paid it it just doesn't cover the costs anymore.

You are very lucky to be able to afford to pay for a private health insurance. Just wanted you to be aware that there are alot of people in this country who cannot afford that luxuary.

Just as an aside - the older generation of this country were promised *free* care from "cradle to grave". This is not happening despite them paying taxes all their lives.

I say again, I hope none of you need services provided by the Public Sector, as they wont be there. This, in my humble opinion, has little to do with public sector pensions, but a slow erosion of the welfare state that this country was once so proud of .

 

[Kittykins]

I say again, I hope none of you need services provided by the Public Sector, as they wont be there. This, in my humble opinion, has little to do with public sector pensions, but a slow erosion of the welfare state that this country was once so proud of .

It's not the erosion of the welfare state that's caused the problem, it's the huge expansion that's the trouble. When we're taxed so much that even higher income workers rely on their tax credits to pay the bills, something has gone very wrong. Welfare was originally envisaged as a safety net to help out those in geniune need. Instead we've got an entitlement culture in which everyone protests that they pay their taxes, so they should get some sort of freebie back. That was never going to be sustainable!

 

[Dirtymare]

It's not the erosion of the welfare state that's caused the problem, it's the huge expansion that's the trouble. When we're taxed so much that even higher income workers rely on their tax credits to pay the bills, something has gone very wrong. Welfare was originally envisaged as a safety net to help out those in geniune need. Instead we've got an entitlement culture in which everyone protests that they pay their taxes, so they should get some sort of freebie back. That was never going to be sustainable!

Please dont get me started on the huge expansion of our country debate.....but yes, to a certain extent, I think you are right.
Not sure about the entitlement culture though - but totally get where you are coming from.
However, I do feel its not a freebie if you have paid for it through taxes.
There has been a slow dismantling of the welfare state as a lot of services were privatised........in the vain hope it would stimulate trade and the economy. Sterling values, but in reality we have over priced services which in reality give p*** poor service.

 

[Sarah1]

FWIW Santa Paws, I completely understand where you're coming from & you're spot on!

 

[perfect11s]

FWIW Santa Paws, I completely understand where you're coming from & you're spot on!

Yes ditto !!! and others makeing some very valid points against the greedy and unreasonable voices in the public sector... I see the gubbermint has caved in on nurses pension contributions for I think those on -£27k and instead of the unions saying good thank you oh no they saying the gov are being dissicive and its unfair the unions are spoiling for a fight Hopefully it will be met with a tough responce, and not yet more apeasement of the bastards ......

 

[dieseldog]

So when the Public Sector is outsourced and the 710,000 Public Sector jobs are turned into Private Sector jobs will that make everything OK as the Private Sector will then be paying Private Sector wages rather than Public Sector Wages plus of course the Private Sectors profit margins.

This debate is pretty pointless as the Public Sector is going once they have been TUPE'd across the pensions will all disappear when the TUPE terms run out.

 

[cptrayes]

I do appreciate things are very tough,and unlikely to improve in the foreseeable future,but please do not use this as an excuse to bash public sector workers.The fault lies with bankers and Government.

The major problem with pensions is that we all live too long.

In what way is that the fault of the bankers (much as I hate Investement Bankers) or the Government?


Can Public Sector employees PLEASE stop assuming that because we don't think you can continue to have your wonderful pensions at our expense that we want the entire NHS and welfare state discontinued?

What a RIDICULOUS argument.

I have also got to the bottom of the 11p a mile rate for Community Nurses. First, they are entitled to claim tax on the difference between 11p and 45p a mile, which makes the true rate 17.8p a mile. If they run a car that won't do 33 miles to the gallon in this day and age, tough.

Second, they also get an essential user car allowance which none of them have currently disclosed. This is intended to pay for insurance, tax, depreciation due to additional work miles etc.

 

[Mithras]

So when the Public Sector is outsourced and the 710,000 Public Sector jobs are turned into Private Sector jobs will that make everything OK as the Private Sector will then be paying Private Sector wages rather than Public Sector Wages plus of course the Private Sectors profit margins.

This is another increasingly strange feature of the UK. Some obervers term it the "pseudo public sector". Its neither public nor private sector, but appears to be the latter, while relying for its work on the former. For instance:

- if you pay your planning permission submission fee to your local authority, you will also most likely be required to get a bat survey, a badger survey and an environmental impact survey, at a cost of up to £2000 from ostensibly private contractors from an approved list of whom the council will accept.

- if I rent out my property in Scotland, I pay my landlord registration fee to the local authority, but must get a gas safety certificate, electrical safety certificate, from approved contractors. I must put my tenants' deposits into a scheme run by a private company which has won the contract from the State. If a statutory repairs notice is placed on the roof of my property in Edinburgh, the work will be shared out amongst a few ostensibly private contractors who get 99% of their work from the Council in this way.

I have no choice but to pay for the "pseudo public sector", because I cannot progress without doing so. But this work would not exist but for the public sector.

Mind you, I wish they'd privatise refuse collections, I'm sick of tidying up after the binmen have been, on their increasingly occasional visits to my property!

Many other examples.

 

[perfect11s]

So when the Public Sector is outsourced and the 710,000 Public Sector jobs are turned into Private Sector jobs will that make everything OK as the Private Sector will then be paying Private Sector wages rather than Public Sector Wages plus of course the Private Sectors profit margins.

This debate is pretty pointless as the Public Sector is going once they have been TUPE'd across the pensions will all disappear when the TUPE terms run out.

Um I think few people want to see more PS privatised but just run better and not like a fiefdom for union barrons and jumped up acountants and these dicks with some potty management qualfication who woudent last the day in the private sector , Mind if you take privatised heath care as an example if you have health insurance and a reasnable income you would get far better care in the USA and be treated
as what you are ie a customer, unlike here where things vary greatly and you can be made to feel like a nusance that's getting in the way of more important things !!!

 

[perfect11s]

How do you think they are going to have 710,000 less people in the Public Sector by 2017 if they aren't outsourcing. You are looking at 4 years consultation and 2 years implementation - then lots less Public Servants.

lets hope the jobs that go are all the useless managers and penpushers but sadlyI think it will be the usefull frontline service providers, street cleaners , care workers, etc however we canot go on as we are jobs will have to go to pay for the important stuff like EU bailout , foreign aid
and subsidys for people like Cameron's FiLs wind farm aparently about £1000 per day .....

 

[SpottedCat]

- if you pay your planning permission submission fee to your local authority, you will also most likely be required to get a bat survey, a badger survey and an environmental impact survey, at a cost of up to £2000 from ostensibly private contractors from an approved list of whom the council will accept.

This isn't accurate. I don't know of any councils that keep a list of approved contractors for this sector, and I've worked in it for 10 years. If you need an EIA, it will cost you a damn sight more than 2K, but there are very prescribed situations in which one is needed. If people start doing full EIAs for 2K, I'm changing professions, I couldn't even write the ecology chapter of one for that, and I have a fraction of the overheads of a large multi disciplinary consultancy. You only need protected species surveys in certain circumstances, not for all planning applications. And the industry certainly isn't 'pseudo-public-sector' in any way - in fact all the councils I deal with specifically say they do *not* endorse or approve any particular contractors.

 

[siennamum]

Um I think few people want to see more PS privatised but just run better and not like a fiefdom for union barrons and jumped up acountants and these dicks with some potty management qualfication who woudent last the day in the private sector , Mind if you take privatised heath care as an example if you have health insurance and a reasnable income you would get far better care in the USA and be treated
as what you are ie a customer, unlike here where things vary greatly and you can be made to feel like a nusance that's getting in the way of more important things !!!

It's bizarre that you think private companies are such a great idea delivering front line services. I'm sure there are some success stories, but instead of bloated PS organisations, we now just have bloated private co's doing the same, Capita, Serco & if you really want a laugh a4e. It's a mystery to all how some of these organisations continually manage to accumulate more work to do badly.

 

[perfect11s]

It's bizarre that you think private companies are such a great idea delivering front line services. I'm sure there are some success stories, but instead of bloated PS organisations, we now just have bloated private co's doing the same, Capita, Serco & if you really want a laugh a4e. It's a mystery to all how some of these organisations continually manage to accumulate more work to do badly.

No that was'nt my point yes I would agree these quasi public sector co's seem to have the worst of all worlds, crappy PS mentality maybe because they recruit from them!!!!, with short term gain for shareholders ...

 

[Dirtymare]

So when the Public Sector is outsourced and the 710,000 Public Sector jobs are turned into Private Sector jobs will that make everything OK as the Private Sector will then be paying Private Sector wages rather than Public Sector Wages plus of course the Private Sectors profit margins.

This debate is pretty pointless as the Public Sector is going once they have been TUPE'd across the pensions will all disappear when the TUPE terms run out.

Exactly.
Your local council is gradually divesting all services. In fact Selby council only have 14 employees. All services have been put to private companies. The health service will not be far behind.

 

[Anglebracket]

Santa Paws is bang on, by the way.

Public sector taxes are paid out of salaries that have been paid for from the taxes of private sector employees. So all you're doing by paying tax is recycling the money through the system. Think about it: who pays your pay-cheque? The treasury (ultimately). Where does your tax money go? The treasury. So you're just handing back money, not contributing extra funds.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/britains-trillion-pound-horror-story/4od

Say someone works for Tesco and buys their groceries there too. Would you say that they are just handing back money, not contributing towards Tesco profits?

Public sector workers receive a wage for the work they do. This money now no longer belongs to the tax payer or the treasury but to them. Public sector workers then pay a proportion of their salary as taxes. In exchange for that they get NHS care, education for their children etc.

 

[Wundahorse]

What usually happens is that certain services go out to tender,and private and public sectors can bid for that service.Increasingly private sector companies win the tender,but then struggle to communicate effectively with other agencies who have an interest in that,or allied services.They cannot always be relied on to provide decent services,and i have witnessed this in some private hospitals.Poorly performing staff have also been attracted to work in the private sector,of which i am aware of certain practitioners who were sacked from the NHS,finding work in private hospitals.It is not an ideal world, unfortunately,and public services are so big and unwieldy that there are no easy solutions.Society is also changing how services can be delivered which puts a lot of financial pressure on to provide for all.If only we could have a clean slate and start again,learning from the mistakes of the past.Medical progress and advancements in treatment,diagnostics etc has added to the overburdening of health and social services too.

 

[cptrayes]

Public sector workers receive a wage for the work they do. This money now no longer belongs to the tax payer or the treasury but to them. Public sector workers then pay a proportion of their salary as taxes. In exchange for that they get NHS care, education for their children etc.

No, they would still get the care whether they were paid net of tax and NI and paid no tax or NI or not. Because the money is ALREADY in the system. You are getting confused between being paid your current salary without paying tax, which would clearly be an atrocious overpayment, and being paid net of tax, leaving you with exactly the same take home pay as you have now.

If you are paid from the public purse you do not contribute ONE PENNY of tax or NI to fund your own healthcare, welfare benefits or pension. ALL your own public services are paid for by the tax take from the private sector.

Think about it Wundahorse. If there were no private sector employees at all, where would your salary come from, for you to pay your taxes to fund your own healthcare?

 

[cptrayes]

Say someone works for Tesco and buys their groceries there too. Would you say that they are just handing back money, not contributing towards Tesco profits?

OK, that's a good question. Here is the answer.

Agnes works for Tescos on the till and is paid around £200 a week.
She buys her groceries at Tesco with a 10% staff discount, paying £90 for what would cost anyone else £100.
Tesco bought in the goods which Agnes has just bought for £33 and it cost them another £33 to put them on the shelf and sell them, including Agnes's wages.
They have made a profit from Agnes's purchases of £24.

Jim is a banker who earns £1000 a week and pays £200 in tax.
Agnes's husband Fred is a Hospital Porter and is paid around £200 a week, which he got from Jim, via the Treasury, and on which he pays £40 tax.
Fred has a toenail operation on the NHS which cost £40.
Fred's £40 tax paid for his toenail operation. But he was given that £40 by Jim, so Jim actually paid for Fred's toenail operation.


I'm sorry you don't like the idea of it, but you do not actually pay one penny towards your own health care, pensions or welfare benefits if you are employed solely in the public sector.

 

[cptrayes]

I should have said Anglebracket earlier, not Wundahorse, sorry for any confusion.

 

[Wundahorse]

Sorry but public sector staff still have to live,pay the rent/mortgage,do the shopping,buy shoes and clothes etc etc,all of which go straight to the private sector to keep people in business and work.For all i know Santapaws i am probably contributing to your salary,whatever it is that you do.Money just moves around the economy like that.I also trained as a Nurse because that is what i wanted to do,and i gave no thought then to pensions.I am sure the same applies to other public sector staff.If more public sector lose their jobs,which is on the agenda,then this will have an effect on local economies,as there will be much reduced spending power.Public and private sectors have some reliance on each other,thus a total disparate divide as evidenced from some folks here will never resolve the issues without a bit more understanding and awareness.This and the previous Government have created the current situation,along with bankers and investors,the latter of who, by my reckoning were in the private sector before some messed up and were bailed out by the state.

 

[Horlicks]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but this is begining to sound like a "I hate public sector workers" and "lets blame them for everything" thread.

I'm proud to be a hard working NHS midwife, married to an equally hard working policeman who both pay TAX and NI and will both eventually get a pension but if we didn't do these jobs who would?

I'm not for one minute saying that the pensions shouldnt be amended/brought into line but we are all going to have to make sacrifices to get this country back on its feet - public sector and private sector.

So lets quit the arguing about who pays for who and work together to improve the situation for everyone.

I await the customary rant back in response......

 

[cptrayes]

Sorry but public sector staff still have to live,pay the rent/mortgage,do the shopping,buy shoes and clothes etc etc,all of which go straight to the private sector to keep people in business and work.For all i know Santapaws i am probably contributing to your salary,whatever it is that you do.Money just moves around the economy like that..

If the calculations that I have given above have not shown you that this is not correct, then I am at a complete loss as to how to explain any more. Let me think ....


OK, let's say I work in Tesco and I earn £200 a week and pay £40 of that in tax which goes back into your salary as a nurse, say.

You come into Tesco and you spend that £40 on your groceries for the week.

Fine, you have contributed to my wages.

But if I did not pay tax and NI in the first place, I would still have that £40 and I would spend it for myself, thankyou very much

There may be a question of what an awful society it would be to have no public sector, but this is not it. Neither is it Public Sector bashing.

The fact remains, that ALL the money generated in the economy is generated by the private sector. The public sector cannot exist before the private sector generates taxes.

 

[cptrayes]

I'm proud to be a hard working NHS midwife, married to an equally hard working policeman who both pay TAX and NI and will both eventually get a pension but if we didn't do these jobs who would?

Oh PUHLEEZE!

Do you REALLY think no-one would do your jobs if you didn't? I don't hear of any difficulties recruiting trainee policemen, nurses, firemen, CPS lawyers, or indeed ANY public sector workers except perhaps science teachers who can earn so much more out in Industry.

 

[cptrayes]

This and the previous Government have created the current situation,along with bankers and investors,the latter of who, by my reckoning were in the private sector before some messed up and were bailed out by the state.

The pension issue has been caused primarily by longer life expectancy. It was known about more than ten years ago, when the private sector started closing final salary schemes, but Labour didn't want to cause any upset with the Unions and Labour voters by addressing it.

The current economic situation has simply made it impossible to ignore any longer. It is not the primary reason for the adjustments having to be made.

 

[Dirtymare]

If the calculations that I have given above have not shown you that this is not correct, then I am at a complete loss as to how to explain any more. Let me think ....


OK, let's say I work in Tesco and I earn £200 a week and pay £40 of that in tax which goes back into your salary as a nurse, say.

You come into Tesco and you spend that £40 on your groceries for the week.

Fine, you have contributed to my wages.

But if I did not pay tax and NI in the first place, I would still have that £40 and I would spend it for myself, thankyou very much

There may be a question of what an awful society it would be to have no public sector, but this is not it. Neither is it Public Sector bashing.

The fact remains, that ALL the money generated in the economy is generated by the private sector. The public sector cannot exist before the private sector generates taxes.

Yes, we get what you are saying Santa Paws.
But you are chosing to ignore the fact that services are being divested to the PRIVATE sector.
As I have stated, Selby Council actuallty only employ 14 workers. This is the future and reality. And is going to happen to the NHS.
You may scoff at those in the NHS and other services, and tell us there would be plenty to take their places.
However, there wont be any jobs left in the Public Sector soon for others to take.

 

[siennamum]

So if you work for a private sector company who work for government are you earning money from the Govt. or the company? Is it real money or are you in fact a public sector worker in disguise........ I'm really confused (in case you hadn't realised)

 

[Magicmillbrook]

I dont think there is a single public sector worker who doesnt agree that something has to give with their pension schemes. My pension scheme was revamped 3 years ago (or possibly longer) to make it more sustainable and I understand that further cuts are needed, either that or the government is going to have to hire hit men to bump some of us off at the age of 70.

What I and many others disagree to is the extent of the changes, the lack of consultation and the disparity in what is happening to us when other public sector workers are not being included in these pension changes - for example MP's. If you add this to the job losses, pay freezes, regrading (wager cuts) and massive cuts and in many cases loss of the services that we provide with love and pride and you end up with a lot of very angry people. I feel the public sector worker has now taken over the mantle of 'whipping boy' from the bankers.

Regarding the circular questions about tax - of course everyone understands that money comes from production. What p****s the public sector worker off is when people carp on that they pay your wages - we all pay tax, yes its true that tax from the public sector doesnt increase the tax pot, but the feeling of seeing how much your actual wage is against your gross pay every month is painful for a public and private sector alike. Is a public sector worker supposed to say 'yes I pay a lot of tax, but thats ok, it doesnt count because it wasnt my money in the first place'. Then we hear that unemployment benfits are increasing in line with inflation, whereas our wage, that has been cut, or at the very least frozen for three years may or may not rise by 1% in two years time - it blinkin well rankles.

My job isnt just a 'job', its a vocation. I my field I could earn more in the private sector, in fact only a few weeks ago I was offered a consultancy posts in the private sector for a bigger salary, company car and private health care, gym membership and all my training and proff fees paid. I chose not to take it because I prefer to work for the little person and I love the challenges that it brings. I dont like the long unsociable hours, unpaid overtime or the beurocracy - but hey, on the whole I am lucky. My department being given the master plan for its restructure on Monday -15% loss in workforce without the loss of any front line services (yeah - right), perhaps I was a little hasty.

Once the government has raped and pludered this resource - what is left....