Public sector pensions

[Wundahorse]

Following from the outrage caused by Jeremy Clarksons unfortunate rant about the strikes, I felt inspired to challenge the misnomer perpetrated by the media about so called,"gold plated pensions".Firstly most front line staff will only receive a modest pension,which accounting for inflation will not keep them from the breadline in years to come.NHS senior managers i.e directors,assistant directors,chief executives,and all of that ilk,will get huge pensions,as they earn vast salaries compared to the front line staff who deliver patient care.Most of these managers are usually incompetent practitioners who then make incompetent decisions in their managerial roles,often making massive cut backs to front line services while ensuring their own jobs are preserved. mp's and Ministers also receive platinum encrusted with diamond pensions,protected from inflation,and not necessarily earned over a career span.For instance,if "call me Dave" loses the next election,he is likely to be booted out with a massive pension,for what,serving only 5 years in office.I wont rant about their expenses either,but have to stress that as a community Nurse,i only receive 11p per mile for work mileage.With the price of fuel,the maths do not add up,and i am paying to deliver a service to my patients.I gather Mp's get 50p per mile!There is so much inequality in this great British system,all of it deriving from the top.
I pay around £400 each month into my public sector pension so after 32 years in practice so far,i think my hard working colleagues and i deserve a reasonable pension.All fans of Jeremy Clarkson also need to appreciate that this "buffoon" receives a big salary from the BBC,which i understand as a corporation,makes it a public service.Such hypocrisy.
I realise there are probably people who think all Nurses neglect their patients on the wards,and in the community,but will point out that the Nurse to patient ratio is so low that inevitably they cannot manage the case loads,or provide the service they want to deliver.This is the product of legislation and sweeping cut backs.Do not believe the myth that front line staff have been protected from the cuts.The reality is they are the first to be made redundant,while managers retain their jobs.

 

[VikkiL]

Yup totally agree. I am also public sector, and its driven me mad the misreporting of our pensions- sure the senior managers etc may have great gold plated pensions, but our front line pensions arnt quite so brilliant.

In the area of the sector I work in the contribution rate is 9%, which I simply cant afford, so I currently do not have a pension.

It is planned that the contributions increase to over 11%- looks like I wont be in the pension scheme for a good while!

I do appreciate times are hard for everyone, and that everyone has to make sacrifices at the moment- but I am so totally fed up by public sector bashing by people misinformed by the media!

 

[FairyLights]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...sector-pensions-reform-may-not-be-enough.html

 

[katherine1975]

Well said Wundahorse. I am struggling now and work full time as a nurse. It is hard enough not having a pay rise for two years, I wouldn't be able to afford to pay extra into my pension as well!

 

[cptrayes]

Yup totally agree. I am also public sector, and its driven me mad the misreporting of our pensions- sure the senior managers etc may have great gold plated pensions, but our front line pensions arnt quite so brilliant.

In the area of the sector I work in the contribution rate is 9%, which I simply cant afford, so I currently do not have a pension.

It is planned that the contributions increase to over 11%- looks like I wont be in the pension scheme for a good while!

I do appreciate times are hard for everyone, and that everyone has to make sacrifices at the moment- but I am so totally fed up by public sector bashing by people misinformed by the media!

Can you afford to keep a horse? If so, you are making a choice to have a horse now rather than pay into a pension scheme which, even after the reforms, is beyond what most private sector employees can even dream of.

Remember that when you are 70 and can't afford to heat your house.

 

[cptrayes]

I felt inspired to challenge the misnomer perpetrated by the media about so called,"gold plated pensions".Firstly most front line staff will only receive a modest pension,which accounting for inflation will not keep them from the breadline in years to come

It is not a misnomer to call them gold plated, because they are based on your salary and index linked, neither of which apply to the vast majority of private sector pensions. They also contain a condition of being able to retire early on the grounds of ill health, shoudl the situation arise, which is not the case for private sector money-purchase pensions.

 

[YorksG]

Please be aware that the poster who cannot afford to pay into the NHS pension is already paying tax and national insurance, along with the community nurse who is subsidising the NHS by paying to visit her patients. If, like me, she also has to put in VAT receipts to claim the small amount of milage re0mbursment, she is paying the VAT, which is then claimed back by her employer, thus subsidising the NHS againm never mind the unpaid overtime etc, etc,
The pensions changes are merely another way for this government to tax public sector workers and I hope those who make the comments they do about nurses etc. never need to use the public sector, because before long there will be no front line staff left to do the job.

 

[cptrayes]

First, I do feel genuinely sorry for people whose pensions are being changed. But it happened to the rest of us, employed and self-employed, years ago and it is not fair for us to continue to pay for your benefits to be so much better than ours.

The trouble with most Public Sector workers, it seems to me, is that you simply don't realise how much it costs to provide your pensions. If the basic benefits that you get were to be bought by someone in a standard money-purchase pension they would need a fund of £100,000 to get every £4000 or so a year pension. So if you are a nurse on £25,000 a year set to retire on a bit under half that, £12,000 you would need a fund of £300,000. Now can you see that your 10 or 11% of your own salary a year goes nowhere near providing the amount of money needed?? You would work for 100 years and still not have nearly enough. And that doesn't include a provision for early retirement on the grounds of ill health, worth another mint.

 

[cptrayes]

Please be aware that the poster who cannot afford to pay into the NHS pension is already paying tax and national insurance, along with the community nurse who is subsidising the NHS by paying to visit her patients. If, like me, she also has to put in VAT receipts to claim the small amount of milage re0mbursment, she is paying the VAT, which is then claimed back by her employer, thus subsidising the NHS againm never mind the unpaid overtime etc, etc,
The pensions changes are merely another way for this government to tax public sector workers and I hope those who make the comments they do about nurses etc. never need to use the public sector, because before long there will be no front line staff left to do the job.

She has made choices not to pay into it. She could afford it but she is choosing horse ownership (I believe, unless corrected) over her future retirement income. Her choice. Plenty of people are making a different one, private and public sector.

Please remember that NONE of your jobs can exist until private sector people earn money and pay taxes.

 

[cptrayes]

as a community Nurse,i only receive 11p per mile for work mileage.With the price of fuel,the maths do not add up,and i am paying to deliver a service to my patients..

This is completely outrageous, it does not even cover the cost of fuel. What the hell are your Union doing not getting that sorted?

I do a voluntary Public Sector job and my mileage rate is 35p for a 1600cc vehicle.

 

[YorksG]

The local government pension scheme which I pay into is in good health and can indeed continue to fund the pensions it is committed to. There is a difference between public and private sector working (not much difference in the admin staff role and other non public facing jobs admittedly) I know of no private sector job where it is the norm to subsidise your employer through your mileage, or where it is the norm to provide basic equiplent yourself. Those of us who have worked for many years in the public sector, in front line roles have accepted poor and innadequate working conditions, on the understanding that we would have a decent, appropriate pension at the end of our working lives.
Of course if people wish to return to the days of the work house and the hospital almoner, then feel free to support these changes.

 

[dieseldog]

i only receive 11p per mile for work mileage.With the price of fuel,the maths do not add up,and i am paying to deliver a service to my patients.I gather Mp's get 50p per mile!

MPs do not get 50p a mile, the most they can claim, along with everyone else who pays tax is 45p a mile. Are you aware that you can claim the difference between 11p and 45p a mile back if you do your own tax return?

 

[cptrayes]

the norm to subsidise your employer through your mileage, or where it is the norm to provide basic equiplent yourself..

Those things are outrageous and I am baffled why your Union is not publicising them and fighting like crazy to get them sorted.

It is just plain wrong. If unions aren't there to correct that sort of thing, what are they for?

 

[katherine1975]

Santapaws - I can still pay for my horse but only because I work full time and have chosen not to have children and have horses instead. It's not our fault we are paying this money into our pensions and the government are spending it instead of investing it to grow.

 

[ClobellsandBaubles]

First, I do feel genuinely sorry for people whose pensions are being changed. But it happened to the rest of us, employed and self-employed, years ago and it is not fair for us to continue to pay for your benefits to be so much better than ours.

No it isn't fair but I think one of the points that the OP was trying to make it that it isn't fair between public sector workers those who are actually doing the graft caring for patients are not those who get much benefit at all compared to managers and MP's etc. where the vast majority of the money actually goes.

Why can't they taxed equally in order to make the system a little bit fairer to everybody.

 

[cptrayes]

Santapaws - I can still pay for my horse but only because I work full time and have chosen not to have children and have horses instead. It's not our fault we are paying this money into our pensions and the government are spending it instead of investing it to grow.

You obviously have no idea what has happened in the last ten years to pension funds "left to grow". If I had not moved my own into a cash fund paying no more interest that you can get in the bank - less than inflation - it would have lost about 40% of its value. It is this kind of risk that the private sector now have to face, and why your own pensions are justifiably described as "gold plated".

 

[cptrayes]

No it isn't fair but I think one of the points that the OP was trying to make it that it isn't fair between public sector workers those who are actually doing the graft caring for patients are not those who get much benefit at all compared to managers and MP's etc. where the vast majority of the money actually goes.

Why can't they taxed equally in order to make the system a little bit fairer to everybody.

I do agree with you that all public sector workers (except perhaps Police, Army and Fire Service) should have the same pension provisions.

But in terms of the vast majority of the money going in their direction, I think you will find that because of the much greater number of lower level staff than managers, changes to their schemes to bring them down to match yours would not produce the amount of money that you expect. It should be done though!

 

[cptrayes]

The local government pension scheme which I pay into is in good health and can indeed continue to fund the pensions it is committed to..

Not according to the Audit Commission. Full report here with all the figures for anyone interested:

http://www.audit-commission.gov.uk/...onalStudies/100729localgovernmentpensions.pdf

 

[YorksG]

Then perhaps the fraud squad would be interested. The last statement from my LG pension fund, less than two months ago, showed it to be in good health and more than able to meet its obligations.
(by the way the link did not work)

 

[animal]

ignore this post!

 

[cptrayes]

http://www.audit-commission.gov.uk/nationalstudies/localgov/localgovpensions/Pages/Default.aspx

"The Local Government Pension Scheme is the UK’s largest public sector pension scheme by membership. In our latest information paper, we examine its long-term affordability, and find that although it is backed by local funds, recently investments have failed to deliver the anticipated returns, and the funds currently cover only about three-quarters of the scheme’s future liabilities. "

 

[Wolfie]

I literally don't think it matters what anyone says, the views are too entrenched. The Private sector very obviously think that the public sector are bumbling, incompetent dolts that are latched onto a lucrative nipple and living a life of luxury with the promise of more reward in retirement. The public sector are exasperated and frustrated because they feel they have been robbed. The two sides will never see eye to eye, unless of course all public sector workers are reduced to minimum wage or something.

From my perspective things appear thus: I am a lecturer in FE. I work pretty hard, pay loads of tax and am expecting to work until I am about 70 before I can afford to retire. However, I am also a temporary member of staff, since cuts have placed an embargo on appointing anymore permanent posts. I do indeed enjoy long holidays, enforced by the fact that the college closes and I am not paid for this time, so struggle along by saving to pay rent etc. I could live better if I didn't have a horse, but on the other side I don't have children so I think they are comparable in cost. I doubt very much I will be taking home a massive pension, and don't think I am living in enviable conditions compared to a private sector worker. I am sure I will be told to suck it up, and I did end up choosing this career so must bear some of the responsibility, but the same can be said for anyone who chose private sector over public - you made a choice, so don't castigate others for the choice they made. The govt promised a certain pension per worker, they can no longer deliver. How or why they can no longer deliver is somewhat irrelevant as they made a deal and now are reneging. The fact they already did something similar to the private sector does not make it right.

I also find it infuriating that C**tron and his colleagues rake in huge salaries, retire on huge pensions and seem to do very little more than make quips at each other across the house of commons. I would feel more vindicated if these swine were forced to endure the same conditions and cuts as their "employees" as it were.

And Mr Clarkson, a spanner who spends his days having d*ck measuring contests with his friends by driving around in cars, has a brass neck on him for suggesting that he works hard. Faffing around in a car and occasionally ejaculating some diatribe intended to offend and bait those of a sensitive nature does not equate to hard work in my book!!

 

[perfect11s]

I blame anyone who voted lib, cons or Liebour!!!!.... you got what you deserved, a load of selfserving tossers ..... lIebour spent all the money Bliar gave us an ilegal war/s gordo wrecked the economy, the libs are plastering the country with windmills so no reliable electric just massive bills and genraly interfering with goverment, cameron lot are slighty better and a making an atempt to ballance the books but they are going to sell us out to the EU so it looks like we are doomed.. kids

 

[luckyoldme]

) I know of no private sector job where it is the norm to subsidise your employer through your mileage, or where it is the norm to provide basic equiplent yourself.

no we all have nine to five monday to friday jobs. We have huge exspense allowances and are generally treat much better than the public sector. Yes everthing is wonderfull here in Narnia.

 

[criptic]

great piece! well put too.

 

[Wundahorse]

One thing i did not mention is that many staff in the public sector are being regraded,which in reality means they are being forced to drop a pay band and take a big cut in pay,all of which will lead to a reduced pension.I do appreciate things are very tough,and unlikely to improve in the foreseeable future,but please do not use this as an excuse to bash public sector workers.The fault lies with bankers and Government.In addition,a lot of the information in the media,particularly papers such as the Daily Mail,is based on erroneous and deliberately inflammatory nonsense,that is designed to manipulate and divide the nations workforce.Rather being at odds with one another,both private and public sectors need to show a more united front,as we are all affected by these dreadful economic times.

 

[YorksG]

no we all have nine to five monday to friday jobs. We have huge exspense allowances and are generally treat much better than the public sector. Yes everthing is wonderfull here in Narnia.

Well rather than the somewhat childish response, please give examples of where people pay for the privilege of visiting clients/patients etc, other than the 'caring' professions.

 

[cptrayes]

we are all affected by these dreadful economic times.

We are, but it's only a small part of what is wrong with Public Sector pensions. The problem is that we are living too long. People are now routinely living 25 - 30 years after their retirement date and that is, quite simply, unaffordable unless you save about half what you earn.

It was unsustainable money-wise and grossly unfair morally for the Public Sector to continue to be paid pensions that the Private Sector, who generate the cash for the Public Sector to exist at all, cannot even dream of.

Like everyone else, though, I do wish we could have the same rules for Directors of companies and Higher level Public Servants.

 

[Mithras]

The public sector is so disparite its difficult to make meaningful comments that apply to all. There seems to be a notion amongst public sector workers that the trade off for a lower salary than in the private sector is a better pension, but I don't think thats borne out in practise. In reality, many lower-mid level public sector jobs are better paid than private sector jobs would offer people of the same skills/experience. Certainly in Scotland, where I live, you have electricians, binmen (it is always men), admin staff, maintenance staff on 30-40k a year (inc overtime where they seem to build up a backlog of work to ensure the need to work at double time over Christmas), which is way higher than the private sector would pay for most of these jobs.

Theres also talk of poorer working conditions, but I'm not sure what these are, beyond specific jobs like nursing, which is something IMHO that should be primarily public sector provided. When I worked in the public sector, I benefitted from flexitime, a low workload, subsidised canteen, long holidays, a lot of admin support and no need to work beyond 9-5 usually. As well as the pension. Unfortunately, as a lawyer, I got fed up being paid the same as someone with no degree or not a qualified professional, as did my colleague, who got a 5k pay drop on regrading of his job and left.

Surely everyone knows that a work pension is quite likely not to provide enough for a comfortable retirement, and you should either top it up, or take the risk? I pretty much knew that on coming out of uni, so I don't see why other people don't, and then claim surprise on finding out. Pensions are such a risky business anyway, but people in the private sector have to deal with these risks. The world is changing - new graduates now have student loans and fees to pay off, while some of the people moaning about their pensions now recieved student grants and free uni education, for goodness sake!

IMHO there are too many non-essential public sector jobs anyway, certainly in Scotland, and cutting some of them would probably improve my day to day life (who wants their bins micro-monitored or City of Edinburgh Council's common repairs scheme fraud anyway?)

 

[cptrayes]

Well rather than the somewhat childish response, please give examples of where people pay for the privilege of visiting clients/patients etc, other than the 'caring' professions.

I am still gobsmacked by your mileage rate. What do your Union say about it? What do your employers say about it? How is it possible to be paid a mileage rate which does not even cover the petrol costs for any normal small saloon on the road?

Are you also paid a fixed essential user car allowance?
Are you paid a higher rate for the first x,000 miles?
What job do you actually do? Nurse mileage rates are 2 and 3 times what you get.


What would happen to you if you refused to do the journey unless your full petrol costs were reimbursed - surely they would have trouble winning that one at an employment tribunal?

If you struck over that I would support you completely.