Orangehorse
Well-Known Member
That was an extremely interesting and well researched article. It really was simply bad luck that the two horses died.
That was an extremely interesting and well researched article. It really was simply bad luck that the two horses died.
That was an extremely interesting and well researched article. It really was simply bad luck that the two horses died.
Come to think of it I can't recall the last time a horse died between the shafts of a cart? Maybe we should all take up driving!
Don't look into Harness Racing then as it will shatter the dream (please don't think I'm anti racing of any kind for the comment, but ALL sports involving horses have death rates)
I had completely forgotton about harness racing! In my head I had the show carraiges and the skurry driving! But yes, I can now only imagine the fatalities in that.
What might have been a better way of expressing the sentiment, was 'that the finger is rarely pointed at other equine sport with a much vigour and righteous condemnation than it is at racing, but that other sports such as SJ and dressgae also have welfare concerns'. Would that be less incredibly aggrogant?
But by the same token the road riding owner is putting their charge at risk, what is the difference if the horse is bought down by a car or another horse, they are both 3rd party actions?
Badminton can never be made as a straighforward equivalent to the National due to the nature of the event, i.e. a rider and horse at Badminton does not have to contend with 39 other riders and horses all trying to get over the jump at the same time!
And also how many show horses and ponies get put down through lammi because of over feeding to get "Show Condition"? ....... Idiotic owners who don't have a clue?
Whilst it is probably predictable that a number of horses will die in road accidents every year,
A horse road traffic death is never expected, never predictable, not normal behaviour for the horse and almost always caused by inadequate, and often illegal, driving.,
If you were to search on this forum just a little bit you will find plenty of utter condemnation of how top horses are trained and kept in all disciplines, especially in dressage.
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Exactly so, but if it caused deaths in the numbers that the Grand National does, it would not continue without major alterations.
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Maybe so but you rarely see this type of condemnation in say the red tops or the RSCPA making statements to the press or on the TV about these matters.
And two horses died at Badminton in 2007, and the changes for 2008 were?. Even so, as has been stated previously you can not make a direct comparison with an event like Badminton.
That's proportional to the number of people who watch the event. A footballer dies on a pitch in Redditch on a Saturday afternoon local league. It makes the local papers. A premier league footballer dies on the pitch in a televised match, it makes the evening primetime news. If Badminton killed horses year after year the RSPCA would comment.
It isn't a regular year after year occurrence. You may not like me to, but I think you can make a comparison of horse deaths in two annual horse events that are the "pinnacle" of their sport.
I don't know why those two died, but if it was the year that one was spiked by a fence flag pole jumping up off the floor after he broke it in half, then those types of poles have never been used since. If it was found that running horses too close together caused more fatalities, then the time interval between starts would be increased even if it meant fewer than 60 horses could compete.
It is perfectly well documented that a very significant number of fallers in the Grand National are brought down by other horses, and yet they continue to run year after year with 40 starters. How about trying 25 next year, or even 30?
Originally Posted by cptrayes
Whilst it is probably predictable that a number of horses will die in road accidents every year,
Doesn't this^^^^^ contradict..
Quote:
Originally Posted by cptrayes
A horse road traffic death is never expected, never predictable, not normal behaviour for the horse and almost always caused by inadequate, and often illegal, driving.,
^^^this
Fair point, but that is why the thread it titled 'putting the fatalities into perspective' (SP)
No. It is predictable that a number of horses will be killed somewhere in the UK in the course of a year as a result of road traffic accidents. A tiny, tiny number of horses will be killed somewhere in hundreds of thousands of miles of road at any time of daylight on 365 days. Any one accident is not predictable.
Deaths in National Hunt racing are so frequent, and in addition related to horse ability, ground conditions and field size, that a statistician could easily produce odds on a horse dying in any particular race at any particular NH meet.
How should I know, it isn't my thread
Sorry, dont follow how that is not contradictory!
Doesn't the title of the thread give it away????
National Hunt deaths are not random, they are a predictable and frequent outcome of National Hunt Racing.
Then I can't help you much more, sorry. If you want to understand I suggest you study some statistics.
Road accident deaths are random accidents and cannot be predicted except in the widest possible terms that some will occasionally happen.
National Hunt deaths are not random, they are a predictable and frequent outcome of National Hunt Racing.
Ah but they ARE random! Don't you see! I can't remember how many Jumps tracks there are int he UK at the moment but at each one there will be a minimum of 6 chase fences and 8 hurdles. You can't be sure of which particular fence is going to take a horses life that day, if at all that year or decade thus unpredictable. You also can not be sure of which horse it will affect - unpredictable. Now if more horses died at one particular fence or hurdle then it would be looked into and either moved a bit or completely rebuilt to make it safer.
The National has a unique course and horses have been known to die all over the course, not always at the same fence. So that in itself is unpredictable. You start out with 40 horses - which ones fall - unpredictable - which ones get brought down due to fallers - unpredictable - which ones get injured running loose - unpredictable. There are far too many variables to say that it is predictable and frequent.
So going by your theory of predictability you should know exactly which horse is going to die on which road at what time so please - do tell us!
I think perhaps all you are saying is that you want the deaths put into a different perspective than the one I choose to take.
The point is that National Hunt deaths are not accidents.
They are a completely logical and expected outcome of the sport. They are so expected that they are planned for and prepared for in such detail that the race continues around them.
And for me, they happen far too often to be justified.
62.5% of major injuries to horses happen whilst turned out in the field. Should we start expecting not to have a horse o bring in of an evening anymore then?
The point is that National Hunt deaths are not accidents.
They are a completely logical and expected outcome of the sport. They are so expected that they are planned for and prepared for in such detail that the race continues around them.
And for me, they happen far too often to be justified.
But again by the same token deaths on the roads are expected and logical outcome of being in that position! The exact nature and location of the accident is not predictable, but it is so expect that they will happen somewhere that the emergency services are trained and prepared to deal with them.