ragwort I have had it with the myths

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I actually don't know precisely what Esther Hegt's qualifications are but that is not at all relevant. I rather suspect that most people here don't have relevant qualifications either.To know about such an esoteric subject in detail requires a great deal of effort and ability. Some people of course just openly admit that they "can't be bothered" to listen, but still seem rather bigoted. Her botanical knowledge however is utterly impeccable. She is regarded as an expert in the Netherlands and she knows her subject well. To even be able to put together such resources as she has on the subject requires good technical knowledge and intelligence.

If however you are looking for relevant qualifications, the co-author of the article she pointed you at recently on her website is Dr Pieter Pelser who most certainly is a world leading expert on the subject of ragwort. He is a researcher in the field, with a PhD specifically on the plant in question. Since such a well-known expert is prepared to work with her I think a sensible option would be to listen rather than to pour scorn.

There seems to be a great deal of unacceptable prejudice and discriminatory language against her in this form and people are risking looking like snobs. You are not dealing with some foreign oik or pleb don't you know old chaps :-) but someone who is knowledgeable about the subject about which she is talking. Just because someone has slightly flawed English does not mean they are not intelligent.
 
Oh dear. Now it's spread.

Have you read the entire thread? Have you not noticed that many people tried to explain just why ragwort IS a problem and why they try to eradicate it in areas where it will affect pasture and more importantly, forage crops?

And do you not rather think that after nearly forty thousand views and 645 replies - none of which agree with her, whatever her or her colleague's qualifications are - one could conclude that we agree to differ on the topic?

Well, you would have thought so, but it seems that Ester didn't want to take this into account in the slightest hence why posters lost their patience.
As for ‘effort’, ‘ability’, ‘intelligence’? You seem to be implying that none of us have any of these and therefore should take her word as Gospel: that a combined several hundreds of years of experience on this site of looking after horses should bow to her superior knowledge …

And you think we’re snobs?

I suspect you are Pieter anyway, especially as you put those particular words in bold, just in case we were to thick to be impressed.

*reaches for stronger Paraquat*
 
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Wetenshapper you didn't actually read the thread, did you?

Can we get DDT from somwhere it's not banned? How about Agent Orange, anyone got some tucked at the back of the garage???
 
Wetenschapper said:
I actually don't know precisely what Esther Hegt's qualifications are but that is not at all relevant. I rather suspect that most people here don't have relevant qualifications either.To know about such an esoteric subject in detail requires a great deal of effort and ability. Some people of course just openly admit that they "can't be bothered" to listen, but still seem rather bigoted. Her botanical knowledge however is utterly impeccable. She is regarded as an expert in the Netherlands and she knows her subject well. To even be able to put together such resources as she has on the subject requires good technical knowledge and intelligence.

If however you are looking for relevant qualifications, the co-author of the article she pointed you at recently on her website is Dr Pieter Pelser who most certainly is a world leading expert on the subject of ragwort. He is a researcher in the field, with a PhD specifically on the plant in question. Since such a well-known expert is prepared to work with her I think a sensible option would be to listen rather than to pour scorn.

There seems to be a great deal of unacceptable prejudice and discriminatory language against her in this form and people are risking looking like snobs. You are not dealing with some foreign oik or pleb don't you know old chaps :-) but someone who is knowledgeable about the subject about which she is talking. Just because someone has slightly flawed English does not mean they are not intelligent.
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We have no problem with the information she gave us originally but we do with the manner in which she has delivered it!

Having treated us like ignorant yokels we aren't likely to be amenable to her comments!

No one appreciates the same thing being rammed down their throats over and over again.

Ragwort is not a native to the UK or New Zealand so neither are the caterpillars that feed on it. Some idiot brought it back decades ago to Kew Gardens from there it proceeded to spread throughout the country. It needs to be sprayed off, dug up, whatever can be done to remove it - the moths can find a new plant to eat - no doubt they are still doing so in the country of its origin.

Here in New Zealand it probably hitched a ride on hay brought out to feed stock during early settlement. We don't see much of it here especially in the South Island where the majority of sheep are raised. I've sen more of it since moving to the North Island which is predominantly cattle/dairy country.

Whether or not a person is a specialist in their field bashing others is not on!
 
Mrs B said:
Oh dear. Now it's spread.

Have you read the entire thread? Have you not noticed that many people tried to explain just why ragwort IS a problem and why they try to eradicate it in areas where it will affect pasture and more importantly, forage crops?
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I have actually read the entire thread. I rather suspect from what you say that you have not or do not remember what it says.

And do you not rather think that after nearly forty thousand views and 645 replies - none of which agree with her, whatever her or her colleague's qualifications are - one could conclude that we agree to differ on the topic?
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Of course not. Having had scientific training I know not to accept arguments like that. Some thing is not right because a lot of people believe it. My critical thinking skills tell me that something is right or wrong because of the evidence that supports it not because of the number of people who believe it.
Esther believes what she does because she has the evidence to support it. There are myths about ragwort. It is poisonous, but it really isn't as dangerous as people are claiming.

It is also a clear fact that what you are saying about no-one agreeing with her is untrue. Several people who are knowledgeable about the subject have said she is right. Anyone who does seems to be subjected to a barrage of vituperation.

From the moment Esther started posting here she was attacked. Primarily it seems for not being English. We have had a number of postings which seem to say. "You're not one of us go back to where you came from" That is really unacceptable behavior.



Well, you would have thought so, but it seems that Ester didn't want to take this into account in the slightest hence why posters lost their patience.
As for ‘effort’, ‘ability’, ‘intelligence’? You seem to be implying that none of us have any of these and therefore should take her word as Gospel: that a combined several hundreds of years of experience on this site of looking after horses should bow to her superior knowledge …
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That is another one of those unscientific arguments. Experience doesn't make you right. It is the scientific evidence that does this. She has the evidence on her side. You don't.



And you think we’re snobs?

I suspect you are Pieter anyway, especially as you put those particular words in bold, just in case we were to thick to be impressed.

*reaches for stronger Paraquat*
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This is another point where you are clearly wrong about this.
I am not Pieter Pelser. A bit of research should tell you that he lives in New Zealand and that my earlier posting would have been made in the early hours of the morning in that country.

I think that that you need to pay more attention to the evidence
 
Tnavas said:
We have no problem with the information she gave us originally but we do with the manner in which she has delivered it!

Having treated us like ignorant yokels we aren't likely to be amenable to her comments!
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What I see is someone who quite admirably has turned the other cheek at repeated abuse of the "go home you dirty foreigner" type and who has striven to stick to the subject rather than descend to the level of her opponents.
[quote
No one appreciates the same thing being rammed down their throats over and over again.
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Perhaps but as she says she is fed up of people ramming myths down people's throats.

Ragwort is not a native to the UK or New Zealand so neither are the caterpillars that feed on it. Some idiot brought it back decades ago to Kew Gardens from there it proceeded to spread throughout the country. It needs to be sprayed off, dug up, whatever can be done to remove it - the moths can find a new plant to eat - no doubt they are still doing so in the country of its origin.
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That is exactly the kind of myth that Esther is complaining about. Anyone with proper knowledge of the plant in any way at all would know that that is nonsense. You need to check your facts.

Any elementary botanical text will tell you that the plant under discussion Ragwort, also known as Common ragwort Jacobaea vulgaris, is native to the UK. You seem to have got it muddled up with a very very different plant that is a ruderal weed, a weed of waste ground that does not grow in pastures. (At least not unless your pasture is full of rubble or similar problems.)

I have seen this myth in this precise form before.
Oxford ragwort was introduced to Oxford Botanic gardens. Hundreds of years ago and not decades ago. It is not a problem plant at all since it just grows on waste ground. It is not a particularly close relative of common ragwort. It is in a different botanical genus and is called Senecio squalidus. The Botanic Gardens are part of the university. This is the first time I have seen Oxford University described as "idiots".

The issue isn't about moths or insects. It is about telling the truth not spreading falsehoods. It is about understanding critical thinking and the scientific method.

It is perfectly understandable that you should believe this myth. I understand from the publicity surrounding it that adverts have been banned by the advertising regulator for repeating myths like this. I would suggest you check your facts before attacking anyone else's position on-line.

Whether or not a person is a specialist in their field bashing others is not on!
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I have not seen any evidence of her bashing anyone. Just a surprisingly patient attempt to correct incorrect information in the face of a barrage of personal attacks, bullying and prejudice against foreigners.
It is really evident there are lots of myths. You have proved this by stating one yourself.
 
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In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter?
Us in the UK have been dealing with ragwort our way for ages, and will carry on - it's no big deal. Yes, we might moan about it, but off we go into our fields to pull it up. Job done.
What exactly is your issue with that?
Why can't we just quietly go about our business as before?
 
Ooh scientific training ;)

I have a PhD and am an expert on a particular micro organism, doesn't always make me right about it and there are a few other experts (not many as it is quite novel and quite a few of us disagree).
 
My, Wetenschapper! You do take yourself terribly seriously, don't you?

Not only did I read the thread, I did remember what it said - dumb though you obviously think me to be. However, as you admit yourself, ragwort IS poisonous, it is invasive and I and many other horse owners are not willing to take the risk of it (either variety) being anywhere near our horses or our source of winter forage. By the way, I couldn't care less if you are Pieter or not - that part was tongue in cheek.

Now, may I suggest if you or Ester decide to join a forum again to impart such information, that you start a polite post which doesn't open with 'Ragwort, I've had it with the myths'? That just gets people's backs up before you post another word.

You might find something along the lines of "Hello! I'm new to HHO and I work in the field of X. You may be interested to know that I have been studying y in particular for z number of years and I think you, as horse owners, might be interested to read the results' gets a better reception. And no, that's nothing to do with where someone comes from or their ability in a particular language. It's just called social skills.
 
You can play the xenophobia card all you like Mr Wetenschapper (great name by the way) but the long and the short of it is; your Esther tried to discredit a very well-respected professor and I'm afraid that's just not cricket.
 
Fellewell said:
You can play the xenophobia card all you like Mr Wetenschapper (great name by the way) but the long and the short of it is; your Esther tried to discredit a very well-respected professor and I'm afraid that's just not cricket.
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She also persisted in writing comments that to a native English speaker could only be interpreted as criticism of the way we keep horses in this country. If you check back, I and others politely explained this to her and asked her to desist.

When she refused, all gloves were off. Now she has resurrected this thread after it was dormant for a year, doubly so.

Please, anyone out there got a small thermonuclear device that we can put this to bed with, I'm getting desperate now. :D



ps. Mr Wetenschapper, If you think that posting in the early hours of the morning means that someone cannot come from a particular country then your own scientific method leaves something to be desired. I assume you have heard of both insomnia and working a night shift?
 
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'Dutch Noun

wetenschapper f, m (plural wetenschappers, diminutive wetenschappertje)

scientist (one who activities make use of scientific method)'

Nice name Wetenschapper, but you do come across as bit pompous and as if you are the only one with any scientific qualifications around here. As pointed out, that's not the case - there are quite a number of people who read these forums who are well qualified in the scientific method.

TBH, Esther doesn't get my goat because of what she is saying, but because of the fact that for whatever reason, be it lack of language skills or just plain ignorance, right throughout the thread she has just ignored the information given back to her from horse owners here on the ground. She just replies with the rhetoric 'you haven't read my website or understood' - this is a little frustrating, essentially treating us all as ignorami. A forum is usually based on conversation, and I'm afraid Esther only seems to process one way traffic. We understand, you guys have a bee (or moth) in your bonnet and for whatever reason you want to make us believe we are buying into a myth that ragwort is dangerous for our horses when you believe it isn't. WHY you keep bothering with us, I'm not sure. And actually, you know, ragwort is dangerous for horses and I have seen a horse die from over ingestion of the plant, as I have pointed out to Esther before.

That horse's pasture wasn't well looked after and neither was it, but I can tell you, no amount of websites, blogs or forum posts on how to manage pasture from you guys would have made any difference, as the owner of that horse wouldn't have read them, and even if he/she did, they wouldn't have done anything about it as they were lazy owners who didn't care until it was too late.

The average HHO reader probably isn't stupid or lazy when it comes to horse care. As we have all said on here before - you are preaching to the converted on this forum. We know the risks and manage our pasture accordingly.

Personally I don't have any problem with ragwort in my horses' field - we have occasional plants coming through and they are removed quite swiftly before they get a chance to seed, as are all weeds in my fields. I'm quite happy with my horses having good grass based pasture with nothing nasty in it thank you very much. There are plenty examples of Senecio jacobaea on the fells and verges all over the county without them being in my field.

I'd also like to say I'm not hysterical when I see ragwort; I simply see the plant, dispose of it and don't give it a second's more thought. I don't why I have wasted my time typing this, but I do get cross seeing folk trying to use the fact they have a PhD in something to proselytise to the plebs!
 
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