ragwort I have had it with the myths

[Tnavas]

ps. Mr Wetenschapper, If you think that posting in the early hours of the morning means that someone cannot come from a particular country then your own scientific method leaves something to be desired. I assume you have heard of both insomnia and working a night shift?

Hear, Hear.

I often post on here during UK daytime - and guess where I live NEW ZEALAND! Sometimes/often I can't sleep so go on the computer and chat with my family in UK and visit HHO and catch up on the WORLD horse chats.

We remove Ragwort from our grazing regardless of myths because Ragwort can kill and you never know what your horse has eaten in the past before you owned it - and it is accumulative - so one day the horse may eat the Ragwort that broke the camels back! and DIE!

We remove ragwort from our grazing because it takes up valuable grazing land - wherever there is a Ragwort plant there is no grass.

Grazing is expensive and an important part of our horses diet and to get the best out of our grazing land, we remove ALL weeds, Ragwort, Dock, Thistles, Buttercup, Fat Hen (gives horses the runs) Penny Royal etc, etc.

My horse is allergic to Buttercup - her face swells to hamster proportions if she eats around these plants. I'm fortunate with my grazing as the land owners are very diligent in removing Buttercup for my horses wellfare.

My friends horse is allergic to Penny Royal - it makes him head shake.

 

[cptrayes]

Tnavas do you ride Clydesdale in NZ???????

 

[Tnavas]

Tnavas do you ride Clydesdale in NZ???????

Yep

This is my girl at Horse of the Year - ridden by one if my Pony Clubbers for me

 

[cptrayes]

Awesome!! I love them, they have such movement. I keep resisting the temptation to buy a mare and breed some tbx babies to dressage and hunt with.

 

[Alyth]

LOL The Arab x Clydie are popular here (New Zealand!) as well.....as are TB x Clydie....in fact we have a Clydie x GP dressage horse here.....ridden by Bill Noble who I am sure you have heard of!! Bowie even has a fan club!!

 

[Tnavas]

LOL The Arab x Clydie are popular here (New Zealand!) as well.....as are TB x Clydie....in fact we have a Clydie x GP dressage horse here.....ridden by Bill Noble who I am sure you have heard of!! Bowie even has a fan club!!

My Clydie x TB youngster I sold just before I went on hols to UK - three weeks from being first ridden

and Bill Noble and Airthrey Highlander (aka Bowie)

credit for this photo to Debbie Stevens Photography

 

[cptrayes]

Fantastic. Ever since I first saw one move I reckoned they would make cracking dressage horses. They really lift and have a superb front leg action, from the ones I've seen.

I love Bowie!!! I'd pay a lot of money for a baby him with four white legs.

Can anyone tell me what proportion of TB x Clydie would you expect to have feather? I really don't want to have to care for feathered horses with my mud.

Alyth, Arab x clydie really raised my eyebrows - picture pretty please????

 

[Tnavas]

Can anyone tell me what proportion of TB x Clydie would you expect to have feather? I really don't want to have to care for feathered horses with my mud.

My first one was Clydie x Holsteiner and has minimal feather but is a heavier type with a very fine coat, the Clydie x TB - the one above jumping has virtually no feather in the summer but grows a beard and hairy legs in winter. You just don't know what you'll get. I'd have expected the TB x to have minimal feather.

The Clydie x Holsteiner

 

[pootleperkin]

They all look fab - have to say OH and I have always thought clydeys are fab movers, such lovely long legs and fab uphill paces. OH is 6'5'' so they would suit him too!

 

[babymare]

Didnt see thread first time around - some hilarious posts btw - but finally we have what this forum is all about.Horses!and some great piccies of lovely horses yay

 

[Wetenschapper]

So on her advice, it's absolutely fine to go and feed my valuable 3yo ragwort? I'm not sure the HHO legal team would agree.

I would suggest that you actually read what she as said. I would also suggest that you read some of the links she has posted.
They might just be a bit more informative than romantic pulp fiction would be.

 

[Wetenschapper]

TBH, Esther doesn't get my goat because of what she is saying, but because of the fact that for whatever reason, be it lack of language skills or just plain ignorance, right throughout the thread she has just ignored the information given back to her from horse owners here on the ground. She just replies with the rhetoric 'you haven't read my website or understood' - this is a little frustrating, essentially treating us all as ignorami.

Well unfortunately some people here are ignorant and repeat the myths. We have recently had the one about ragwort not being native in the UK. I wouldn't point this out if there hadn't been all of the bullying of Esther on the grounds of her poor English, but the correct English plural of ignoramus is actually ignoramuses. I wouldn't say my English is perfect either but then I do have the excuse of coming from a nation where it isn't the indigenous language.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Just thought I'd pop back in and see the latest crazy posts and its lovely to see another of Esther's pals. However, if Wetenschapper actually read the forum, she/he'd know we have well respected members from all over the world.

However, stupidity is treated the same regardless of nationality.

 

[abracadabra]

Oh no no no, Wetenschapper. We don't dislike Esther because she is foreign. We dislike her for a whole host of other reasons, but her nationality isn't one of them. This is an international board, being foreign is fine here, however...being Esther is not.

 

[Wetenschapper]

You can play the xenophobia card all you like Mr Wetenschapper (great name by the way) but the long and the short of it is; your Esther tried to discredit a very well-respected professor and I'm afraid that's just not cricket.

"Oh dear. Isn't it frightful! We have some bally foreign oik who dares to question a top hole British professor. How dare these people behave like that. Bad eggs the lot of 'em. Not the done thing old bean, don't you know! It isn't cricket. Would never have happened when we had the empire. What ho!"

My attempts at humor aside. Logic dictates that someone isn't right because they are a professor. This is a logical error called "Argument from authority". It is the facts and evidence that determine what is true not the status of the person making them.

You might be able to make some case that the expert would know what he is talking about from his standing in the community and publications on the subject, but if we are talking about the same individual there is very little published research from him on the subject in the peer reviewed literature.

Esther seems to think she has found better sources of information and the evidence seems to suggest that she is right.

Is this the same professor who claimed in a letter to a newspaper about the number of cases of ragwort poisoning " In my own clinic it is more than 10 per year out of a hospital population of 2,500". When the hospital have released figures saying they did not record a single case over an extended period?
Is it the same professor who wrote about the British ragwort plant, "In South Africa the plant is causing massive concerns.", when the experts in South Africa say that they have no evidence that the plant has ever grown there?

Is it the same professor who wrote. " each plant will produce around 150,000 seeds.", when the claim was repeated by a horsey charity in their advertising and they were forced to change it by the advertising regulator, because the regulator, who demand facts and evidence, didn't receive any that convinced them it was true?

Don't you think that there might just be some grounds to question what is being said? That he might just be exaggerating just a little bit?

 

[Wetenschapper]

We remove Ragwort from our grazing regardless of myths because Ragwort can kill and you never know what your horse has eaten in the past before you owned it - and it is accumulative - so one day the horse may eat the Ragwort that broke the camels back! and DIE!

First of all, and remember you were criticizing Esther for her poor English, the correct word is "cumulative" not "accumulative" if you get a good dictionary there is a difference.
This really does betray the fact that you are not familiar with the scientific publications, if you were you would not have made that mistake.

To get it straight the biochemistry it seems very clear. It is only cumulative if more than a toxic dose is absorbed in the first place. It is very clear that small doses have no effect.
This is perhaps why, when you look for properly documented cases of ragwort poisoning you find there are very few and that they are associated with heavy consumption either in conserved forage or as a result of starvation. (Not cases where a vet just says are ragwort poisoning without proper evidence which is far too common.)

You keep getting things wrong like telling people ragwort isn't a UK native. You were wrong about that, shouldn't you then question what else you have been told?

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Well unfortunately some people here are ignorant and repeat the myths. We have recently had the one about ragwort not being native in the UK. I wouldn't point this out if there hadn't been all of the bullying of Esther on the grounds of her poor English, but the correct English plural of ignoramus is actually ignoramuses. I wouldn't say my English is perfect either but then I do have the excuse of coming from a nation where it isn't the indigenous language.

Wetenschapper, sweetie, ignorami is perfectly acceptable. According to Merriam-Webster:
ig·no·ra·mus noun \ˌig-nə-ˈrā-məs also -ˈra-\: a person who does not know much : an ignorant or stupid person
plural ig·no·ra·mus·es also ig·no·ra·mi

Isn't it a tad hypocritical of you to try to pour scorn on a fellow poster for what you (incorrectly) perceive to be incorrect usage of the English language?

 

[Wetenschapper]

Oh no no no, Wetenschapper. We don't dislike Esther because she is foreign. We dislike her for a whole host of other reasons, but her nationality isn't one of them. This is an international board, being foreign is fine here, however...being Esther is not.

It might be for some but what about comments like this made about her " I'm not going to have some Frog claim it's not as bad as we think."

 

[Wetenschapper]

Wetenschapper, sweetie, ignorami is perfectly acceptable. According to Merriam-Webster:
ig·no·ra·mus noun \ˌig-nə-ˈrā-məs also -ˈra-\: a person who does not know much : an ignorant or stupid person
plural ig·no·ra·mus·es also ig·no·ra·mi

Isn't it a tad hypocritical of you to try to pour scorn on a fellow poster for what you (incorrectly) perceive to be incorrect usage of the English language?

I suggest you actually read a proper dictionary. The Oxford English Dictionary says differently. It is because ignoramus is actually a VERB in origin not a noun.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

"Oh dear. Isn't it frightful! We have some bally foreign oik who dares to question a top hole British professor. How dare these people behave like that. Bad eggs the lot of 'em. Not the done thing old bean, don't you know! It isn't cricket. Would never have happened when we had the empire. What ho!"

My attempts at humor aside.

Wetenschapper - as an attempt at humour this is a massive fail. It is bordering on racist though.

 

[pootleperkin]

I wouldn't point this out if there hadn't been all of the bullying of Esther on the grounds of her poor English, but the correct English plural of ignoramus is actually ignoramuses.

Actually either 'uses or 'i is correct, depending on which dictionary you care to look at. You can stick with the Oxford if you like, and I admit that am relatively conservative in terms of spelling and grammar, but as part of my job is scientific editing, I find that you have to move a little with the times and accept that language isn't always tied to the dinosaurs. For example, I hate using American English spelling, but even certain European journals now demand it.

Anyway Mr Wettenschapper, if you have nothing better to do than try and pull me on spelling, go for it - I don't profess to be perfect, and if you want to miss the point of my/our posts, so be it.

 

[Cragrat]

It seems that neither Wetenschapper nor Esther really read the replies, and therefore don't understand our objection to ragwort.

It CAN kill horses, usually slowly and painfully. Personally, that means I don't want even a single ragwort plant in my horse fields, or in the hedgerows or fields near my horses fields.

We all know that horses don't usually choose to eat fresh ragwort, but cannot detect that dead ragwort is still toxic. All plants periodically haves leaves which die or fall off the main plant for various reasons: these parts can be eaten and begin the liver damage.

Ragwort IS invasive- I don't really care exactly how many seeds each plant produces, but it must be quite a few. Most horse owners have seen the results of a horse owner for some reason neglecting to pull ragwort before it flowers- it doesn't take long before the entire field is covered in ragwort. Apart from the risk from eating dead parts of the plant, it reduces the space, light, and nutrients available to the grass. Therefore the horse becomes hungry, and is even more likely to eat the ragwort.

This is why ragwort is unwelcome in horse pastures, and near horse pastures. Even one slow painful death, from a cause which is fairly easy to prevent, is one death too many.

You can argue all you like about precise numbers, but removing ragwort can prevent deaths, prevent suffering even if the horse survives, and also makes financial sense.

In view of these facts, I will continue to to strive to eradicate ragwort from my pastures and neighbouring hedgerows.

 

[Wetenschapper]

Wetenschapper - as an attempt at humour this is a massive fail. It is bordering on racist though.

Perhaps you don't recognize a stereotype of the kind of snob that we have among some on this forum. After all I didn't start accusing anyone's behavior of being " Not cricket". Right through this thread there has been
Bertie Wooster-esque criticism which will indeed be funny to some, but not to those whom it characterizes perhaps.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Perhaps you don't recognize a stereotype of the kind of snob that we have among some on this forum. After all I didn't start accusing anyone's behavior of being " Not cricket". Right through this thread there has been
Bertie Wooster-esque criticism which will indeed be funny to some, but not to those whom it characterizes perhaps.

Oh, I recognise a racial stereotype when I see one. Bit pathetic that you have to stoop so low to make your argument.

 

[Wetenschapper]

It seems that neither Wetenschapper nor Esther really read the replies, and therefore don't understand our objection to ragwort.

It CAN kill horses, usually slowly and painfully. Personally, that means I don't want even a single ragwort plant in my horse fields, or in the hedgerows or fields near my horses fields.

We all know that horses don't usually choose to eat fresh ragwort, but cannot detect that dead ragwort is still toxic. All plants periodically haves leaves which die or fall off the main plant for various reasons:

All plants haves[sic] leaves. and you criticise Esther!

these parts can be eaten and begin the liver damage.

If you look at the science animals are not poisoned by plants they encounter naturally. They all have a level of resistance that prevents this happening. We know very very clearly that small doses have no effect from the biochemistry.
One of the mechanisms involved is the same as for paracetamol which is a liver toxin, as most people will know, but which can be consumed in doses daily as long as it isn't enough to overload the bodies defenses to its toxic effects.

 

[ester]

My attempts at humor aside. Logic dictates that someone isn't right because they are a professor. This is a logical error called "Argument from authority". It is the facts and evidence that determine what is true not the status of the person making them.

No, as I suggested earlier the same applies to Esther's friend/writer/contributor who has a PhD.....

I also think there is a difference between typos (on what is a forum not official documentation) and completely poor tone to a series of posts.

Pootleperkin, I hate having to use american spellings for papers too.

 

[hairycob]

I wouldn't class myself as either a scientist. I would also consider not to have extensive experience of horses - I've only ever owned 4 & had 2 on loan & have always been on very small yards in the 9 years I have had horses. BUT I had one horse die of ragwort poisoning shortly after I got him on loan from a yard with a lot of ragwort growing in the fields & I know another that was seen to eat live ragwort & when pts for other reasons was found to have an extremely damaged liver, only just short of fatal. If my very limited experience can pull up 2 examples it can't be as uncommon as you think. Frankly, I don't give a damn what papers you point me to & what you say about the biochemistry I will destroy every last ragwort I find in my horses paddock. Having nursed a horse with a failing liver once I have absolutely no desire to do it again & would consider myself a failure as a horse owner if I allowed it to happen.
But even this is not the reason Esther really, really annoys me. It is the fact that she completely ignores the often repeated information that the dense lush pastures she recommends are totally inappropriate for the cobs & natives that many of us in the UK have & would kill them faster than force feeding them ragwort. When she stops being so arrogant & actually listens to what people are telling her, we might start listening to her.

 

[Cragrat]

I personally have never criticised Esther for her language or spelling. To me, she writes well enough that I can understand her.

I do object the way she, and you, ignore the fact ragwort has been proven to be the cause of more than one horse death, takes up valuable and expensive pasture space, and that is why we eradicate it.

And paracetamol is not a good choice- cases of liver damage and death from long term paracetamol use are well documented. That is why there is clear labelling limiting the frequency and duration of use.

Also, horses confined to a field are NOT in their natural environment. They naturally would roam huge acreages, and not remain for days or weeks in areas covered in ragwort.

 

[ester]

quite- why would you want to have ragwort in your pasture when you could have grass in that spot instead , the same applies to non-toxic weeds too.

 

[Wetenschapper]

Oh, I recognise a racial stereotype when I see one. Bit pathetic that you have to stoop so low to make your argument.

It is interesting what happens when someone signs into the board and appears to be a foreigner . They are clearly discriminated against. Even accused of racism when they criticise and mock the use of toffee-nosed snobbish phrases like "its not cricket" against their opponents.
You cannot accuse me of anti-British racism, I am, as far as I know, entirely British by ethnic origins and I was born there, although I have spent time in a number of countries including the Netherlands. My English is, I know, flawed on occasions.

All my toffee-nosed terms were borrowed from British literature and comedy. The Major in Fawlty Towers used "bad eggs" for example and most of the rest is as I said Bertie Wooster.

But I would submit that to criticise me for saying something as a foreigner most
definitely is criticising me on grounds of apparent race. There is, however, no question that Esther has suffered clear racist attacks, like calling her a "Frog", an abusive term for a person of a foreign nationality.

There is an awful lot of snobbery on this forum.