Rant! Does Nobody want to work with horses anymore??!

I am surprised at your low response rate as even with 'timewaster' you should have had more people call. I have advertised for a (p/t admittedly) groom three times and had well over 50 responses each time. About half of those were silly people, half of the rest were possible and from those I would end up interviewing 4-5.

Have you tried your local paper? I always got good responses from the Yorkshire Post and then the Shropshire Star.
 
If you can't find anyone experienced OP, why don't you employ the farmer and train him? I'm thinking farmers are hard working people and not afraid of dirt etc, so would probably be a reliable employee, even if he couldn't do much about breaking or schooling for a long time. Or employ two people, one for the yard work on minimum wage and one for the riding work on a higher wage to reflect their experience?

I agree with what's been written so far. Would like to add the equestrian employers attitude to 'health and safety' often leaves a lot to be desired, even in the official jobs. Employees generally are expected to push or lift heavy loads without assistance and to put themselves at risk of injury when handling or riding the horses. Then not only is there no sick pay when they get injured, but they're often expected to come to work next day (and every other day), no matter how this impacts on the chance of lifelong injury versus a full recovery.

How people get away with paying less than minimum wage, is they create illegal jobs, pay cash in hand and give their employee absolutely no rights whatsoever. This has created a culture where any equestrian employer who is willing to create an official job, pay minimum wage and holiday pay, then expecting their employees to be forever grateful for this massive favour :rolleyes:

You think people would rather work minimum wage with horses than in a bar etc? How many people do you know, who have worked ten years or more with horses in a physical capacity (rather than eg instructor), who don't have a permanent back problem caused by the job? Or permanent damage to a joint due to a work related injury that was never allowed to properly heal? Not so common with other kinds of work.

I'm not saying you are a bad employer, but many are and it puts people off working in the industry. Employers tend to think - well I'd do it so why shouldn't I expect someone else to do it? Not realising that what you're willing to put yourself through for your own horses or your own business, is a lot more than what people will put themselves through for low pay as an employee.
 
I know a couple of people that ride really well but they work in Tescos doing shifts because they pay well, in a clean enviroment with benifits and they can get to ride and spend money on competeing on their days off.
When I left school eons ago there were horrer stories about yards that used and abused you. I was lucky, I got excellant tuition, worked hard learnt a lot and got paid pocket money.I realised I was never going to make a living at it and went on to have a fairly well paid carear. It seems very little has changed.
I have been trying to find someone local to help me for a few hours each week,paying over minium wage plus milage and had very little response.
If I was needing someone full time I think good self contained accomadation would be a real incentive as there are loads of peope looking for rented rooms, with a proper contract with specified hours and days off.
My daughter has been doing care work for the past two years which by no means well paid or easy but she is still better off than if she had worked with horses
 
I'm afraid that the days of paying people a pittance for quite skilled work are over.
There is plenty of money in horses, take racing for example.
If people don't want to pay a proper wage, do it your self.
 
Firstly have you advertised in all the right places?

Secondly the pay. I won't set foot on a yard now for less than £55 for a full day. I would rather sit on my bum at a checkout earning the same wage but with a staff discount and where I could go enjoy my horses as a hobby.
 
Hmmm the ever present problem of staff!! I get fed up with it as a yard owner. I don't pay myself £55 a day! And so why the hell should I have to go in to debt to pay some one else this much? ESP when they aren't much cop on the back of the horse, are incredibly slow mucking out and require lots of training. My point is this- if you can find a decent member of staff, who can do everything to a high standard and increase yard profit and in my case cash flow from helping produce better horses, then yes, they are worth the money. However, I have yet to find a groom/ rider who is really up to the job. I've got a new girl starting for me in jan. she's a lovely girl but her riding leaves A LOT to be desired. I will have to spend a good hour of my day teaching her, just to get her up to speed. Therefore having her on the yard is going to cost me money / time and she won't be able to be left in sole charge or able to produce on a youngster for a while. Hence I will pay her a training wage. She has tried to argue this with me as like a lot of girls, has been to equine college and thinks that this equals a good foundation. Reality is I would have rather had her straight from school and taught on the job as she would be up to speed a lot more quickly. Now with the government forcing young people to stay in education till they are 18 it's only going to get worse! Yard running costs are very high, feed, bedding, insurance, muck removal all cost a fortune and yet livery prices have stayed the same. Please do explain where this leaves the increased staff costs! Hence horsey jobs are stuck in a timewarp
 
I would..

People seem to want textbook knowledge over practical life accrued knowledge much of the time now though..

There is little or no offerings for those that don't want to ride and often the wages are apprentice level or minimum wage, which isn't often near enough for those of us with mortgages and our own families and horses..
 
But she can earn £55 a day in any other job - and how can she pay rent and other living expenses on less . There is a very good rider who works a bit at our yard and then also works at her main job in a yard producing young event horses . She is barely paid min wage for her main job, which takes a lot of skill and can be risky to herself .She also works a few evenings in a pub to make ends meet and this must be tiring for her as she has to get up early the next day. Thinking about it, all the grooms I have known have had second jobs, evening cleaning and waitressing.
 
Here's the thing I'm self employed with horses. My choice. Not much left over after properly taking care of horses. But if I were to employ somebody how could I not expect to pay a living wage? Some of you are sounding bitter and I understand to a point. But working set hours in a controlled climate beats horse work all day long. Might be boring or mundane but less likely to get hurt. When you've put in a full day and are about to leave, your boss isn't finding one more job or the cash register isn't colicking or the farrier isn't late. So you end up working far more hours than supposed to and employers are like, well that's horses. Who wants that. No normal person. It's fun when your young to live in a crap hole, live on ramen noodles, and work your fingers to the bone to get some experience, but who wants that for a lifetime.

My husband and I used to work 14-16 hour days doing the horses properly when we had a larger business. Would love to have hired someone to work WITH us, but we couldn't really afford to pay a living wage and so we just trudged on ourselves.

When I left America I was clearing $1800 every 2 weeks, had my $1000 rent paid and a second office job in racing clearing $225 a week. I galloped horses and worked at most 5 hours per day. Ambulance on site, insurance, protection from health and safety and so on. It was a dangerous job and you got paid for it. Came here and wanted to get on some to stay fit. Was getting on an average of 12 a day, if you got hurt you most likely got shoved in a car for the hospital, worked 6-7 hours, and at the end of the week got $230 in my hand. It wasn't worth it to me. And flat I flat out refused to gate school. Sorry watched too many riders getting banged up because just anyone handled the horses in the gate. Back home you're pulled to safety before you even know there's a problem.

I'm sorry you all aren't finding help but you chose to start a horse business knowing the slim profit margins. To expect people to work for little money and more hours than a normal job is silly. I personally wouldn't have a breaking business if I had to hire riders. But that's me. Riding just started horses is a skill set and I'd expect a living wage.

Terri
 
Who can afford to work with horses ? My daughter would love to return to it, she's excellent with horses and customers and a quick worker, but there's no way she can afford to subsidise an employer.

Employers get what they pay for and the best employees wake up after a few short years and leave for better paid jobs.
 
Terri - as always talking sense.

In addition to poor wages a lot of horsey people may be great with horses but terrible at people management. Therefore working at these places is often a pretty miserable experience in addition to rubbish pay. Having seen how a lot of YM/YO treat their staff I'm surprised they keep them for as long as they do!
 
When I left school I tried a WP position as it was my dream to work with horses. I'd had my own for most of my life, had years of lessons and plenty of experience of the nitty gritty, although by no means did I think of myself as being 'all that' (and still don't actually!). I expected only a training wage as part of the offer was training on YO's horses and my own if I wanted, being put through the BHS stages plus shared accommodation.

However, what I didn't expect was to be treated like absolute *****. I wasn't considered an employee, or a pupil, or anything like that. I was made to feel like the lowest of the low, and also quickly cottoned on to the fact that the promised ridden training would be once a fortnight if I was really lucky, not daily as I was told at interview, and nor would I have time for my own horse, who was my priority.

So at 16, I junked it in, got an office job on my GCSE qualifications and immediately started earning literally thousands of pounds more than I would have as a WP or even as a trained groom/rider. Not only that, earning my money this way means I can ride my horse every day, compete at weekends and have lessons from whoever I want. I'd still love to work with horses, I hate being sat on my bum 5 days a week, but the pay offered for the working conditions involved is far from attractive, and is in fact completely unaffordable unfortunately. As so many posters above have said, people have cottoned on to this fact. Another effect of so much info being available thanks to the web etc I'd imagine, the girls who would have gone straight into horses without thinking twice are now realising that they can earn better money in nicer conditions just as I did.
 
Cuppatea said:
But its the legal minimum wage - how do people get away withpaying less??? :(
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There is an old saying "If you pay peanuts you get monkeys". People insist on paying the minimum wage & then wonder why they can't get really good staff..... they can't because the minimum wage may be legal but it certainly isn't a living wage. I know money is tight & costs need to be kept down but if you want a quality groom you need to give good conditions & pay a decent wage.

I know a pro show jumper & his staff have a beautiful very modern flat to live in. They are paid a good wage & the equipment they use is first class. They are even given quality warm & waterproof clothing to wear at work. He said to me that if you want good staff you have to do this otherwise you won't keep them.
 
natalia said:
I've got a new girl starting for me in jan. she's a lovely girl but her riding leaves A LOT to be desired. I will have to spend a good hour of my day teaching her, just to get her up to speed. Therefore having her on the yard is going to cost me money / time and she won't be able to be left in sole charge or able to produce on a youngster for a while. Hence I will pay her a training wage.
She has tried to argue this with me as like a lot of girls, has been to equine college and thinks that this equals a good foundation. R
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Hmm, However, if this girl went and worked as an admin or office junior in an office doing say..... 37-40 hrs a week, starting at 9 and finishing at 5.30-6, she could be getting a min of 14k a year to start.
Its a complete no-brainer for the younger ones, most stick the horses for a year or possibly up to 3 before getting out.
As others have said, its the hours & labour that kill off most grooms.

Going back to my 1st post I made on this thread, I was contemplating going back as have been asked by a couple of old clients.

However:
I know that finishing time would not be as agreed as there is always something else to do at the end of the day, unlike setting the answerphone, turning off the lights & locking the door till the next day in the office.
I'd also be working in some pretty poor conditions (not necessarily the yards, but the weather).
Agreed hours always change & not always recompense is made.
I would be losing money big time (as having to go back to self employed) as eyebrows shot up on discussing ££'s per hour.

I pay £15 per hour when mine are done by another totally trusted person, I know that everything is done to my liking & I'm happy to pay this for total piece of mind. When comparing to the costs of paying for a cat/dog to be in kennels etc, its NOT much more!

:)
 
and yet how many people here have complained about the cost of livery..


it's a fact that if people paid livery yards what it actually costs to keep their horses then the vast majority of owners couldn't afford it. I now rent a yard and the sheer amount of time it takes to maintain the 12 acres and facilities is staggering-even as an ex groom I had no idea about that side of it.

like many others I worked with horses-as a working pupil, groom, instructor, vet nurse and in a spelling/breaking yard. Got to 28, realised that £12K a year (late 90s) just wasn't going to cut it although I did have a mortgage (no horse, 2 lodgers to help pay for it). So I went to uni so that I could afford what I have now (which is hardly flash). I did a stint as a freelance groom during a period of redundancy for 6 months at 36-completely ******ed my right wrist and at £10/hour self employed, it still wasn't a living wage with the hours I could get.

If you can offer training plus a decent wage that might be the way to go.
 
Oh yeah and one winter I was sent to the California division. Gof the rent paid on my NY apartment and a rental car paid for. I worked for a top SJ after I got done riding at the track. Just ride for the trainer. Grooms did everything else. That was $300 a week for just riding top class horses. He asked me to go full time and have a much better wage plus competing. I thought about that long and hard but stuck with the racehorses.

Terri
 
Most people will happily pay their cleaner a bigger hourly rate than their groom......god knows why, surely lookng after/exercising their expensive horses is a more responsible and skilled job than polishing and washing floors???!!!
 
Why would they? Low wages, cold, rain, higher than average risk of injury, often dealing with snotty/rude people, a job which is going to get harder as you get older.....or, a nice warm office, with proper benefits and health and safety! It's a no brainer, unless you get on with a horse employer who is good and fair.
 
dotty1 said:
Most people will happily pay their cleaner a bigger hourly rate than their groom......god knows why, surely lookng after/exercising their expensive horses is a more responsible and skilled job than polishing and washing floors???!!!
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there was a letter years ago in H&H, regarding the adverts for grooms you used to get-went along the lines of 'in no other industry do we demand that young people are capable of riding to a good standard, turn out to a good standard, be good with youngsters, kids, dogs,pets, not mind some house duties, drive, drive an HGV, efficient at yard duties, not smoke, work for nothing and must be cheerful about it!'

I remember when Labour got in-I was in racing at the time. the day after the election I walked into breakfast and everyone looked depressed. they (the lads) were convinced that minimum wage would see them all out of jobs!In the flat racing industry with a yard full of of race horses outside lol
 
A good yard should never advertise - so I've been told. The good workers are keepers, because the whole deal is right. If anyone should have to leave then by pure word of mouth someone very quickly is in line waiting to take over. (wasn't it JanetGeorge that has a queue of people WANTING to work for her?).
I threatened to leave my p/t yard job the other week, over a really petty issue, and got told ''no no, don't do that, I value you''... for anyone to say that to a worker is a huge :D!!!
 
Very surprised about the comments on livery prices staying the same, I'm paying more than double what I was 15 years ago...
 
Ahhhh this all makes me lol sorry. You are all sitting there basically having a go at Cupatea because she is offering a minimum wage job (one that is much needed in this area as jobs are few & far between round here) & one couldnt possibly live on that amount of money. Well welcome to the real world! West Wales has few well paying jobs, most things round here are minimum wage & if you can get something that pays more, well good on you. My partner slogs his guts out every day & is out of the house just gone 4am 6 days a week, for just above minimum wage, at the end of the day its a job......what would you rather, he sat on his backside on the dole because it didnt pay enough? Your attitudes are the exact reason people do sit on their backsides on the dole, because one couldnt possibly get out of bed in the morning for the pittance minimum wage offers! Its a job, get over it, someone would probably bite Cupateas hand off for it (have to say i havnt seen it advertised locally, so possibly needs to improve her advertising), i know of several people who would be interested if its in the right location & right hours.
 
Cuppatea, it may be that you need to be a lot more flexible on what you are looking for - can you split the jobs?

I think there are people who would like to help with horses but have children/other commitments so could do maybe one or two days a wee, or mornings only, or whatever. A few part timers is often a whole lot more flexible than having full timers.

It maybe that you could split the ridden work (which maybe a good college person could do, sometimes they have days off - it really might be worth a notice in your local college).

The other thing you can do is see if there is someone who needs support and you can train (ie learning difficulties, they often have placement officers). They are very cautious about putting the in equestrian yards, as they often do get exploited, but if you could put together a proper package, you may well find that you have a loyal hardworking delightful person.

Just trying a few creative thoughts!!!
 
navaho said:
Ahhhh this all makes me lol sorry. You are all sitting there basically having a go at Cupatea because she is offering a minimum wage job (one that is much needed in this area as jobs are few & far between round here) & one couldnt possibly live on that amount of money. Well welcome to the real world! West Wales has few well paying jobs, most things round here are minimum wage & if you can get something that pays more, well good on you. My partner slogs his guts out every day & is out of the house just gone 4am 6 days a week, for just above minimum wage, at the end of the day its a job......what would you rather, he sat on his backside on the dole because it didnt pay enough? Your attitudes are the exact reason people do sit on their backsides on the dole, because one couldnt possibly get out of bed in the morning for the pittance minimum wage offers! Its a job, get over it, someone would probably bite Cupateas hand off for it (have to say i havnt seen it advertised locally, so possibly needs to improve her advertising), i know of several people who would be interested if its in the right location & right hours.
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That's NEED though, not WANT. Not saying OP particularly, but people don't want to work in those conditions, so if there's another option, people will likely choose that
 
Well I must have it good!!

I work a 9-5 horse job with a day off on Sunday and a half day on. Weds. I had the option to keep 4 horses here for free bar vet and farrier but chose livery to get some away time! I rent the most lovely house for 375pcm with my boyf
 
navaho said:
Ahhhh this all makes me lol sorry. You are all sitting there basically having a go at Cupatea because she is offering a minimum wage job (one that is much needed in this area as jobs are few & far between round here) & one couldnt possibly live on that amount of money. Well welcome to the real world! West Wales has few well paying jobs, most things round here are minimum wage & if you can get something that pays more, well good on you. My partner slogs his guts out every day & is out of the house just gone 4am 6 days a week, for just above minimum wage, at the end of the day its a job......what would you rather, he sat on his backside on the dole because it didnt pay enough? Your attitudes are the exact reason people do sit on their backsides on the dole, because one couldnt possibly get out of bed in the morning for the pittance minimum wage offers! Its a job, get over it, someone would probably bite Cupateas hand off for it (have to say i havnt seen it advertised locally, so possibly needs to improve her advertising), i know of several people who would be interested if its in the right location & right hours.
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your attitude that 'you're lucky to have a job and be paid at all- get over yourself ' thats coming across on here makes me give a fair guess you'd be like Cruella De Ville v Scrooge rolled into one as an employer..

God help any staff you employ! :D

..and if you get them, how long will they stay?
 
I don't think people are having a go at cuppatea. There's no reason to believe op is anything but a fair & pleasant employer. We're just stating why there are few experienced grooms around. I can & have been sole charge with a yard of comp horses, I can do the yard stuff, everything from menial stuff at high speed to more experienced stuff, & I can ride at a decent standard. But I'd earn the same doing that highly skilled job as I would in a less skilled office job or a warehouse. By the time you add in the extra pay for unsociable hours, overtime, bank holidays etc you'd get in a warehouse, I bet its more than I'd get as a higher paid grooms job. And tbh, I want a better lifestyle than either offer.
 
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