RANT. Pink and fluffy would be Parelli- ites should not be allowed to ...

[Tinypony]

Tazzle, when I first met you, you were postively reinforcing every time she stood still to be mounted. (Bearing in mind here that you were re-training a very traumatised horse that had been ridden before). It's a simple example, but I haven't seen you do that when you've got on for a very long time. So, it appears to me that when the treats dried up that behaviour stayed firmly in place. Of course, the horse can be trained to stand well for mounting in other ways, but that's just a different approach surely, it doesn't mean that one is wrong and one is right. There is more than one way to back a horse "properly".

 

[amandap]

Of course, the horse can be trained to stand well for mounting in other ways, but that's just a different approach surely, it doesn't mean that one is wrong and one is right. There is more than one way to back a horse "properly".

So true imo. For me the way we train has to fit both horse and human and be flexible.

 

[tazzle]

Tazzle, when I first met you, you were postively reinforcing every time she stood still to be mounted. (Bearing in mind here that you were re-training a very traumatised horse that had been ridden before). It's a simple example, but I haven't seen you do that when you've got on for a very long time. So, it appears to me that when the treats dried up that behaviour stayed firmly in place. Of course, the horse can be trained to stand well for mounting in other ways, but that's just a different approach surely, it doesn't mean that one is wrong and one is right. There is more than one way to back a horse "properly".

thanks tinypony . sorry didn't acknowledge you and * wave * earlier as I was in a bit of a rush just in from work and checking mails etc before heading off to yard ......... and still have not worked out all the "buttons to press" to quote / modify etc easily yet. takes me a while to find them


For those that dont know me I work with people who have learning difficulties, many of whom present very challenging behaviour, so have to use very adaptable and mixed means of faciltating learning (and modifying some behaviours ) . The one thing we can NEVER use is physical punishment ....... ( if a person is biting me I have to use other means to try and prevent reccurence. ). I also cannot use food as a reward ..... so have to find whatever motivator I can to provide incentive for change.

Just like with horses one learning tool rarely works in isolation .... most training methods utilise parts of each "section" of positive and negative reinforcement / positive and negative punishment. What we tend to do however is polarise towards either positive or negative reinforcement and "label" ourselves whether we realise or or not. Other people then get preconceptions based on their own defintions / interpreations of that label and make judgements ..... sometimes without evaluating all the evidence.

Off to have more of a look around

 

[Tinsel Town]

hehe, your post has made me giggle (altough i know not intended) bless you how ANNOYING!! galaxy ripples being sent to you along with some faggs

 

[tazzle]

is there some purpose to your horse being able to stomp on balloons?

well yes she was such a nervous horse we did a lot of getting her used to scary stuff ..... including ... .balloons ( and pushchairs / umbrellas plastic bags etc etc etc. Balloons seemed to be everywhere on gateposts in villages and towns telling folks where parties were . Maked sense for her to be habituated to as much as possible as she seemed to have not had much of an education even before she was messed up by someone .... the less scary stuff being met for the first time out on our walks / hacks the better


We were planning a demo day at EMW and as the finale (and a bit of fun which also demontrated how far rescue pones had come ) we put in as much "scary" stuff as we could based round a fairytale style commentary. We were helping the prince to get through and past loads obstacles the wicked witch had put in his way to find his princess (so they could get wed and live happily ever after). Taz was destroying the poisonous fungi ( to show that even sudden bangs right next to a horse need not necessarily be an issue ).

Plus seeing unusual stuff that most horses don't do makes people remember and go ahhh or laugh ( hopefully) ....... and maybe donate just a little bit more to the charity

bit like the police horses doing their demo stuff ... jumping through fire makes for great watching but rare indeed will an officer need to ask his horse to do it in real life .

 

[DragonSlayer]

is there some purpose to your horse being able to stomp on balloons?

It looks clever?

 

[tazzle]

It looks clever?

well she is but the reason at the time was the demo ..... something "different" ..... if its also useful so much the better !

 

[cptrayes]

is there some purpose to your horse being able to stomp on balloons?

Well you can bet your bottom dollar she won't be one of those people who post every darned Fireworks night, (as if we don't know it's coming and don't have long enough to desensitise our horses), to complain that people are allowed to set off fireworks and it should be banned because their poor ickle horse is afraid of the bangs.

 

[Tinypony]

well yes she was such a nervous horse we did a lot of getting her used to scary stuff ..... including ... .balloons ( and pushchairs / umbrellas plastic bags etc etc etc. Balloons seemed to be everywhere on gateposts in villages and towns telling folks where parties were . Maked sense for her to be habituated to as much as possible as she seemed to have not had much of an education even before she was messed up by someone .... the less scary stuff being met for the first time out on our walks / hacks the better


We were planning a demo day at EMW and as the finale (and a bit of fun which also demontrated how far rescue pones had come ) we put in as much "scary" stuff as we could based round a fairytale style commentary. We were helping the prince to get through and past loads obstacles the wicked witch had put in his way to find his princess (so they could get wed and live happily ever after). Taz was destroying the poisonous fungi ( to show that even sudden bangs right next to a horse need not necessarily be an issue ).

Plus seeing unusual stuff that most horses don't do makes people remember and go ahhh or laugh ( hopefully) ....... and maybe donate just a little bit more to the charity

bit like the police horses doing their demo stuff ... jumping through fire makes for great watching but rare indeed will an officer need to ask his horse to do it in real life .

Purpose = raising funds for a great charity. Purpose = helping to make a nervy horse less nervous. Wish we had a like button.

 

[tazzle]

Well you can bet your bottom dollar she won't be one of those people who post every darned Fireworks night, (as if we don't know it's coming and don't have long enough to desensitise our horses), to complain that people are allowed to set off fireworks and it should be banned because their poor ickle horse is afraid of the bangs.

ohhhhh you have hit that button soooo precisely

that and the much ado about the england flags for the world cup ... doh , it happens every four years for goodness sake ..... and we have royal weddings and st georges day ..


same with kids and balls and bikes and toys etc.......so many people dont habituate their horses too all this stuff and end up trying to sort it out on a hack or at a show

thanks goodness I did some "silliy" stuff like throwing balls not only over her but ON her . .... last year I saw this little kid in his garden eliberatley line his football up and kick it over the fence right at her . ok she winced a little as she had not seen it coming till the last millisecond.... but she did not have a meltdown into the traffic *phew.

She is not perfect and not immune from having ... "oops that's a scary new traffic sign been put up in mY village.... how dare they" day ... but hey, she is a horse she has an "off" day like we all do sometimes

 

[DragonSlayer]

CPT....my ponies take no notice of firework night WSE TBH..and they dont stomp on balloons

Mine don't bother either, they stand and watch, when we are down the field checking them!

Don't bother with bird-scarers, we ride past the shooting range on the bridle-way, and they don't give a hoot when it sounds like WW3 in there.....

...and mine don't stamp on balloons.

 

[cptrayes]

And neither do mine but I can't see any reason to question why someone else teaches their horse to do it. It looks like a lot of fun.

 

[DragonSlayer]

And neither do mine but I can't see any reason to question why someone else teaches their horse to do it. It looks like a lot of fun.

If they wanna do it then that is fine.

HOWEVER...like others on this thread who might go 'a different way' on training horses against 'tradition'....the poster in question is once again implying that those people might not 'be bothered' to 'train' their horses correctly.

Those, like me...who have used traditional methods for years, find this rather trying after a time, do these people think that are 'mightier than us' because of their 'alternative' training methods?

Not in my book.

Tazzle said -

'.......so many people dont habituate their horses too all this stuff and end up trying to sort it out on a hack or at a show...'

I hack and go to shows. Yet my horses seem to be unfazed by the heaviest traffic, loud sudden noises etc etc etc.....

I have not once implied that those whose use 'alternative' methods are wrong, so it is only natural to expect back the same respect, don't you think?

 

[cptrayes]

Tazzle said -

'.......so many people dont habituate their horses too all this stuff and end up trying to sort it out on a hack or at a show...'

But she didn't say you had to habituate yours using the same methods as her, did she, or have I missed something on previous pages? I think we just all agree that they should be habituated to scary things, don't we?

I don't clicker train either, but I have no problems with someone who really knows how to do it using it to teach her horse to pop balloons. I would think that could raise a lot of money at a charity event

Alligator40 you had confidence in the pony after your desensitisation, breaking it in with a brand spanking new saddle

 

[Natch]

Tazzle said -

'.......so many people dont habituate their horses too all this stuff and end up trying to sort it out on a hack or at a show...'

I hack and go to shows. Yet my horses seem to be unfazed by the heaviest traffic, loud sudden noises etc etc etc.....

I have not once implied that those whose use 'alternative' methods are wrong, so it is only natural to expect back the same respect, don't you think?

But there ARE people out there who don't habituate their horses to stuff. I don't think Tazzle has ever said that everyone who does things traditionally is wrong? I know another contributor did seem to be saying that a few pages back, but not Tazzle?

we can all desensitise..without clickers..or balloons..or any other circus tricks..

spar bags/empty fab cond bottles/stuffed overalls..etc...

Good lord you used a dummy jockey?! They shoot you for that on here you know

Desensitisation can be done in any manner of ways, agreed.

 

[tazzle]

I dont think I ever said it was necessary anywhere for any horse to burst balloons in order to get them used to loud noises like birdscarers.... normal habituation will do just fine in most cases ..... but no reason not to either. ....why is it such an issue


Since we also drove father chrismas and his fairies to the christmas party ..... and gave carriage rides to kids at birthday parties .... balloon training generally came in handy.


The reason for posting the actual picure was illustrating that I can do things like this and not just talk about it . Too many people say their horses can do stuff but dont show any examples . I am new here so provided evidence that of what I say I do.

 

[tazzle]

If they wanna do it then that is fine.

HOWEVER...like others on this thread who might go 'a different way' on training horses against 'tradition'....the poster in question is once again implying that those people might not 'be bothered' to 'train' their horses correctly.

Those, like me...who have used traditional methods for years, find this rather trying after a time, do these people think that are 'mightier than us' because of their 'alternative' training methods?

Not in my book.

Tazzle said -

'.......so many people dont habituate their horses too all this stuff and end up trying to sort it out on a hack or at a show...'

I hack and go to shows. Yet my horses seem to be unfazed by the heaviest traffic, loud sudden noises etc etc etc.....

I have not once implied that those whose use 'alternative' methods are wrong, so it is only natural to expect back the same respect, don't you think?

Can I ask you please to go back and re read my posts ........... I have said several times that I am not disrepecting any other methods or saying CT is the only way to do all this stuff. I am saying that many people I see out and about do not prepare their horses properly.. ...... often I dont know what training method they have used on their horses.


Please note that I have said just the same about those who choose CT /NH /IH ( or any other acronym) . .....a poor / just learner practitioner of any persuaion will make mistakes or not be able to use the method properly or fairly and mis represent the "method".


I came here only to present evidence that a CT horse properly trained and prepared can do anything other horses can ..... and to refute the very prejudicial and biased statments that were being made by some that CTing produced frustrated horses .... and that they or NH folks were afraid to ride and did not actually "do" anything.


I am missing reading posts that are crossing my own as I am slow to type ... so please excuse any inconsistancies or apparrent ignoring of questions / comments in my replies.

 

[Tinypony]

I've re-read a couple of times and I think that some are looking for a fight where one doesn't exist.
Nobody's made any sweeping generalisations. People are just happily chatting away about alternative ways of approaching things. I don't know why some are outraged at the concept of teaching a horse to burst a few balloons, life with horses doesn't always have to be serious, or have some great "purpose" does it?
If someone cared for their horse well, and chose to play with things like balloons rather than ride, I personally wouldn't have a problem with it. Who's to say what should or shouldn't be done?

 

[tazzle]

do these people think that are 'mightier than us' because of their 'alternative' training methods?

I think the first inferrence made on the thread was that those who practice "alternative" methods wont / cant ride and confuse / scare their horses .

I admire good horsemanship not any particular method as an entirety.

A good friend and hacking companion of mine is BHS through and through ...... and judged at windsor horse show ......... she respects what I do and I respect her ways...... and we both have polite neddies

 

[tazzle]

we can all desensitise..without clickers..or balloons..or any other circus tricks..

spar bags/empty fab cond bottles/stuffed overalls..etc...

6 weeks later...after being petrified of a brush touching his back...

2 weeks after....

it can be done without "circus tricks"

brilliant work


yup , of course it can ...... the "circus trick" was special for the fundraiser . made it fun for the kids to watch too.

 

[Tinypony]

Circus tricks that aren't unkind to the horse can be fun though. Another thing to do with the horse, adds variety.

 

[Tinypony]

Thinks. Another interesting discussion might be desensitiing and flooding - what makes them different?

 

[amandap]

I applaud both tazzle and alligator40 for sensitively (lol) desensitizing their horses. I agree with tazzle that it is often largely over looked and may (imo) be one reason for some horses panicing when out and about.

I see no problem training tricks within a respectful and caring relationship. My problem with circus tricks is associated with use and abuse of animals especially non domesticated ones. That's a long standing foible of mine.

Surely we are 'allowed' to enjoy the process as well as hoping our horses do or at least are stressed as little as possible. I think we should applaud anyone who trains a confident, generally relaxed and content horse however they get there.
I don't know which way is 'best' I only know what I like and feel right with. I don't think others should do exactly the same as me.

I will read your desensitizing v flooding thread with interest kas.

 

[AndySpooner]

It would be really nice to get folk to understand the reasons behind the pedestal and green ball exercises in the Parelli program.

With regard to desensitizing v flooding, it seems ironic that when the green ball first made its's appearance, the general opinion was that it was a gimic and what was the point of frightening horses with something like that anyway.

Now, fortunately the more enlightened can see the sense in familiarizing horses with unusual objects and occurances. Rather than avoiding anything which may cause a reaction.

Obviously flooding a horse just masks a reaction and an explosion is never far away, desensitizing is a technique which builds a horses confidence to a level where it easily copes with situations which may otherwise cause an adverse reaction.

Of course you don't need a green ball, and there are many ways to do this, Police riot training of horses springs to mind.

 

[fburton]

I don't "have" anything.

I meant "have in mind", although I also assumed the scenario you described isn't entirely hypothetical for you in that you have had to deal with this behaviour in the past!

I reward all desireable behaviour with approval. I never use titbits, I find them unnecessary to start with and counterproductive later.

For approval to work, it has to mean something to the horse. I think that has to be learned one way or another. Whether it's always a "strong enough" motivator could be debated; I still think the extra motivation provided by a food reward can sometimes make all the difference.

I agree with you completely, but I have no fear of my horses perceiving me as an occasional aggressor.

So we'll have to agree to disagree on the use of aggression. In any case, I don't doubt that you have an excellent relationship with your horses. I sincerely mean that.

 

[fburton]

Okay, back to the usefulness (or otherwise) of clicker training...

Let me say first of all, I don't use a clicker for routine training - so I am a long way from being any kind of expert. However, I have used it successfully several times to address specific problems. Here's an example.

Some years ago, I knew a young Welsh Sec A pony stallion that the farrier insisted on being sedated for trimming because he misbehaved so badly. Fear caused him to detest having his feet touched, let alone held, pared and rasped. However, a few short CT sessions completely turned him around.

The pony had received minimal handling from birth and had never learned to accept people messing with his feet. Instead he would react aggressively to attempts to restrain him for hoof care - rearing, striking out and biting. The root cause of his aggression was fear, and the fact he was a stallion gave it an extra edge. He had already gone through a lot of unpleasantness in previous farrier visits. As far as I know, the routine sedation started at about age 3. Before that, physical force was apparently sufficient to get the job done - though I don't imagine it could have been particularly 'routine' or safe. I wouldn't rule out that he had been slapped or punched either, in response to his unruly behaviour and lack of manners.

(It would be easy to blame the 'owner' for not giving this pony the early handling experience that every horse deserves, except that the 'owner' was not one person and the whole situation was rather complicated and messy. The fact that he was not gelded early on, as he should have been in my opinion, is also due to this situation.)

Anyway, I wanted to see how useful clicker training would be in solving this problem, and to help the pony. Before doing this, however, I spent a little while just seeing how far I could get with gentle, sympathetic handling and 'advance and retreat'. The answer was not very far because he would quickly get upset as soon as any attempt was made to get close to his feet or lower legs. That clearly brought back bad memories for him.

Teaching the pony what the click means -- always be the first lesson -- took less than five minutes, as I have found it does with every horse I've tried it with. (I usually use a traffic cone for that.) Subsequently teaching him to lift each foot reliably to a cue using CT took three or four sessions of 5-10 minutes.

The cue for lifting a forefoot was putting my hand over the pony's nose in a particular way and pointing to the foot I wanted lifted; for a hindfoot it was putting one hand on the croup and pointing to the foot on the same side as me. I associated the cue with the behaviour once it had been produced and reinforced. However, to cause foot lifting initially I didn't even need to touch the foot or leg. In fact, I specifically wanted to avoid doing that. Simply moving my hand towards the leg in the act of pointing was sufficient mental pressure to cause a reaction. No physical pressure was needed or used.

It's worth emphasizing that what the pony felt wasn't merely relief from pressure. That would not have been sufficient to permit me to go beyond pointing to actually touching/cradling his foot, because physical contact would have constituted an even greater pressure. (This example illustrates the fundamental difference between 'relief of pressure' and true reward, and why it's incorrect to view them as the same.)

The clicker training dispelled fear. The fear that something bad might happen to his feet (and to him) was diminished by experiencing that good things were happening in relation to them. That's why acceptance of my getting even closer and touching them came so readily. CT effectively short-circuited this pony's bad feelings about people touching his feet and legs: he couldn't be happy and eager to do something and fearful about it at the same time. Once the pony had learned to lift feet on cue - to offer the behaviour himself - it was a straightforward matter to habituate him to having the foot held for longer and longer periods of time, manipulated, tapped, rasped and so on. The only reason he let me hold his feet in the first place was that foot-lifting had become an activity with positive associations.

By the way, targetting rewards is vastly more effective than simply plying a horse with food - otherwise one might expect (wrongly, of course) that plonking a bucket of feed in front of a horse will miraculously produce good behaviour. That is one crucial difference between rewards and bribes. Rewards are more meaningful for a horse when they are linked to specific behaviours. The pony thought he was in control of the situation because it was his own actions (i.e. lifting his feet) that made pieces of carrot appear. So there was no confrontation or struggle or upset, no need for ropes or restraint. The rest of the habituation process could then proceed from a new baseline of willingness that would not have been there, I believe, if I had simply used advance and retreat.

The outcome was a pony that previously needed to be sedated to have his feet trimmed had learned, without any fuss, to lift each foot to a cue and stand quietly while the foot was manipulated. He didn't need sedating for the farrier again (and he didn't start nibbling at pockets). I'd say that was pretty useful!

Incidently, although I didn't use CT with this pony again, I found that in doing other things with him his general attitude had improved in the following days - he was a bit less fearful, touchy and aggressive.

Okay, I'm not saying there is anything special or 'magical' about this. It isn't rocket science. As far as I am concerned, it's just applying basic principles - as basic as (and complementary to) 'pressure and release'.

Cptrayes... I would be interested to hear how you would deal with a case like this.

It just seems a bit of a shame to limit one's options by declaring a tool to be useless or incompatible with a particular kind of horsemanship.

 

[cptrayes]

Some years ago, I knew a young Welsh Sec A pony stallion that the farrier insisted on being sedated for trimming because he misbehaved so badly. Fear caused him to detest having his feet touched, let alone held, pared and rasped.

Cptrayes... I would be interested to hear how you would deal with a case like this.

I think the answer to this is that I do clicker training without a clicker or titbits And that I will, perhaps, more often deliberately cause the behaviour that I want to reward, rather than waiting for the horse to display it so that I can reward it.

I have bought several unhandled horses in the past with varying amounts of fear of having their feet picked up, and one mare who had been ruined by someone else and was terrified of anyone picking up her feet.

If it is that bad, I would start with laying my hand on the leg wherever the horse will allow me and praising it. I would work my way down the leg until it would allow me to leave my hand on the foot. More praise. I would ask him to pick his foot up and reward, with praise, any movement towards doing that, even if it is just a shift of weight. (I might cause that weight shift by turning the horse or backing it up, or a strategic push on the shoulder with my hip, but as soon as the horse moves the foot, praise) At some point the horse will pick the foot off the floor, cue big praise even if he stamps it down again. Eventually you can pick it up, hold it, pick it out, hammer it, etc. Then get OH to do the same, then the farrier.

It's pretty much the same as clicker training, but I don't click, I speak. And I don't have a titbit, the tone of my voice is the reward. Just like clicker training, the timing of the praise is everything, the horse has to understand what it did that was right. I've never failed, with one exception*. It's never taken more than a week (two in the case of one very unbalanced very big horse with his back nearside leg).

I have always found horses very reactive to an approving voice. Perhaps I'm lucky with how I sound or something? I know confidence has a lot to do with it, if you radiate enough confidence that the horse looks to you for leadership, it makes everything much easier.


I did teach my Shetland to "beg" by lifting one paw and "counting" with it, to the command "ask", with food. I was absolutely astonished when he generalised his "ask" trick into asking for a gate to be opened so that he could come in, and he will use it in other situations when he wants a back scratch, for example, and no food is involved. How clever a horse is THAT ???





* the 4 year old chestnut mare I bought who had been ruined also came from a racing line with a lot of very mentally "odd" horses in it. She never accepted the farrier banging nails into her hind feet, though she was happy with the rest of the shoeing process. I'm a barefooter now and looking back at her extreme reaction I am convinced that nailing on actually hurt her. However, if clicker training had been around then (this was loooong ago!) I would happily have tried it for that mare.

 

[tazzle]

soooooooooooo really you both might be not that far apart in some respects ..... . you both want to use positive reinforcement to train the same behaviour ..... and whether that involves edible treats /scratches / verbal praise does it really, really matter as long as the horse considers it pleasant enough to be a motivator of sufficient value for it to change its perception of the human and / or action it has a negative association with ( in CT terms a "poisoned cue" ).


food treats def come in handy as a motivator when a horse is sooo scared you cant touch it and scratchies at the time are most def not a pleasant prospect / association for it ( thats the sad place we were when I first had Taz.


I like to have as many tools in the box as possible and use whatever is appropriate to the situation ... there are some horses / people I cetainly dont reccomend CT to.... some just dont want to for various reasons. I use whatever is needed and imo will serve the horse best.



We didn't use CT for all of the horses in the yard to get them used to stuff. either ....... Taz was the only CT one there anyway ... but we just left things around, let the kids play with all sorts noisy toys etc and did normal habituation ...... and I consider all four of them safe to be left loose and walk around the yard whatever happens. I can, and have, used the "squeeze " game and similar when needed cos sometimes its appropriate to "tell" a horse rather than ask.......Many roads to Rome

I applaud both tazzle and alligator40 for sensitively (lol) desensitizing their horses. I agree with tazzle that it is often largely over looked and may (imo) be one reason for some horses panicing when out and about.

The only vital thing I think is that we create safe and non fearful horses if we go out an about on the roads especially ...... it is the thing that can get me to "rant" for sure especially since an occurence a year or so ago.

I was out and met two people out for a hack in the same direction as me, one of whom I was friendly with and I was invited to join them. A few mins later a cycle passed us and the lady I did not know had to deal with a very prancy horse and told us he was really scared of bikes. erm ok thinks... bikes are rather common around here, this will be fun ( not). Mabye the other two will give him some confidence though.


Later in the hack I was in front when suddenly no2 horse rushed up behind and to the left of us shoving Taz a step or two to the right ... and circling / rearing to the right of us was the "scared of bikes" horse .... with several racing bikes having to swerve wide onto the other side of the road to avoid a collision. Had a car or van ( or heaven forbid a lorry) been coming the other way it would have been utter carnage and maybe have cost lives including the rider and her horse.

Such an unneccesary risk and sooo forseeable with the commonality of bikes around. It has really made it a bit of a "thing" with me I do admit, failure to habituate ( however its done) or prepare a horse for walking on the most dangerous track it ever will, our roads.

 

[Natch]

Desensetising v flooding, tiny pony. I reckon the (only?) difference is how intense the stimulus is for the horse. Oh, sorry, and if its escapable. Or continuous. Guess those depend on the methods used though.

 

[AndySpooner]

Desensetising v flooding, tiny pony. I reckon the (only?) difference is how intense the stimulus is for the horse. Oh, sorry, and if its escapable. Or continuous. Guess those depend on the methods used though.

I really do think that there is a massive difference, if you flood the horse you will cause massive problems, it should never be continuous, and there should always be an escape, but, if you do it sensitively the horse should not feel the need to leave.