tazzle
Well-Known Member
couldnt agree more ...... . need clapping hand smilie
RANT. Pink and fluffy would be Parelli- ites should not be allowed to ...
- Thread starter Enfys
- Start date
couldnt agree more ...... . need clapping hand smilie
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
tazzle
My problem with circus tricks is associated with use and abuse of animals especially non domesticated ones. That's a long standing foible of mine.
couldnt agree more ...... . need clapping hand smilie
What you normally find on here is that people put in emotive phrases like 'Circus Tricks' in order to provoke a response.
Of course they get one.
My problem with circus tricks is associated with use and abuse of animals especially non domesticated ones. That's a long standing foible of mine.
couldnt agree more ...... . need clapping hand smilie
What you normally find on here is that people put in emotive phrases like 'Circus Tricks' in order to provoke a response.
Of course they get one.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Actually, I don't think I have the strength to get into desensitsation and flooding. I've had a great afternoon out with the pones, and now I've got work to do. I can't set off at another tangent.
I'll just peer in when i get bored and see what everyone's saying.
lassiesuca
Well-Known Member
Joining in on the discussion late. But am a fellow clicker trainer **waves**
I will only be echoing what Laura (Tazzle) and Francis has said, but wanted to add my two cents in.
I think, that people are scared to venture to try new things, particularly food training, as people think treat training = bad habits. Well my question, is how many of you feed your horses from a bucket in a stable or in the field? Does he mug you? Does he chase you around trying to consume you
I think, as with punishment, it is all about timing which is that clicker training is all about! I think it's unfair to assume that you can train any horse with out needing to use clicker or not use clicker! We're all individuals as are our horses and we have to respect that our horses are the same- individuals. Some horses don't respond to totally to negative reinforcement based training (i.e. using a dually or pressure and release system).
I think that there are huge misunderstandings also in treat training. My horse used to mug me for treats before we began clicker training, but I taught him not to mug using treats. I think it's unfair to assume that this system is causing bad horses. My horse has developed both physically and more importantly mentally. A lot of clicker training is done through trail and error on the horses behalf. Without writing an essay, we usually use shaping or chaining plans, which allow the horse to do things at his own accord. The thing I find with some of these ideas, is that horses are forced to comply and submit, or they are here all day. My horse has the choice to work with me in the field, and 90% of the time, he comes to play and we do some training. Will attach a vid in a second.
I totally respect why people are skeptical of using treat training, I was, but I used the thing that motivated my horse the most and used it to train him, we then, as Taz said, fade the clicker, after moving onto a variable schedule of reinforcement. It sounds ridiculous and lots to learn, but it's amazing.
It's great if you can train without needing to use a clicker, of course, but there is nothing wrong with using one too. It doesn't make you a better trainer or a worse trainer, it makes you a trainer of your horse and that is that.
What people forget, is clicker training is just a general phrase, it's much easier than saying ''I am a positive reinforcement, clicker/cllucker/voice/body language and treat trainer''. I personally use the click sound, for several reasons.
1) I use voice combined with clicker, however I use my voice to cue behaviours and then the click as a consistent sound to mark the end of the behaviour. I use a ''goooood'' as a keep going cue, and the click as a terminal stimulus.
2) I have speech issues, without going into huge details, I have respiratory issues, since I was a baby and my voice can fluctuate in sound greatly, things come out perhaps poorly and therefore not how I mean it. People misinterpret that, sometimes I sound snobbish other times I mutter and other times I sound sarcastic. So, for my horses sake, I combine the clicker with my voice, as the consistent end cue.
I've taught behaviours with the clicker, which are now asked for without needing to click and treat and he doesn't mug me anymore either. Clicker training is not a system, it wasn't founded by anyone, it's learning and theory and behavioural science, from years of tests- from Pavlovian conditioning to Fred Skinner's work and Karen Pryor introducing it into the dog world and so on. Nobody pioneered this or founded the method, it's a system based on solid, hard scientific evidence, which is practical and a good tool to add onto your training regime. It aids training, you don't need anything special, you can use scratches instead of treats, you can use a cluck or an 'x' or special word instead of a 'click'. I use treats and a click because my horse is more motivated by treats and thus training progresses faster and the click as stated above.
Nobody is suggesting you train like this, nobody thinks it's a better system. We combine clicker with other things, just as you apply your system of working (i.e. praising with your voice and scratches) it may work for you and that's fantastic, but your horse isn't my horse and vice versa, it's unfair to mock a system because you think it's rubbish because what you do works. I despise Linda and Pat Parelli, however, have used their 7 games on my youngster! I'm not a brain washed, cult follower, I just take good bits and apply them. Although I'm a fan of the classical training school of work and riding, which also fits in well with clicker!
Now, for the videos, a lot of these are work in progress. I am at school and have little time to see Shadow because he's kept quite a way away and I have restricted facilities yadeya ya. Anyway, feel free to critique, because I put my vids on youtube for that reason, however please respect that these aren't all finished products and we're both novices, who are learning an awful lot of one another, he's a different horse now and I am proud of him and what he does for me. He's forgiving and patient when I make mistakes, and tolerates my faffing around now. So please don't mock my horse or begin stereotyping, cos he's a clever lad, with a high IQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXVE6mDYSRU&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ1mJAzNSmk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
May I also add, that many of these behaviours aren't pointless, and come in very handy for what we do! They may look pointless. I think nothing is pointless, because sometimes you can just have fun training a behaviour. I used to compete and ride dressage an awful lot, however since having Shadow, I've learnt that we can have fun without riding/ After all, one coulisd argue what is the point in riding horses don't actually NEED to be ridden, not really. But we ride them to keep their minds active, for our own pleasure and to develop their fitness. Training on the ground with or without clicker, is good fun. It isn't all doom and gloom and is a great way to get to know your horse and earn his respect and trust. For that, I couldn't be happier to have met my horse and gained a wealth of understanding of horses in general. How to appreciate them 
Happy horse training everyone. Whether you clicker train, clucker train, ''non-circus-trick'' train, or just train in general 
I will only be echoing what Laura (Tazzle) and Francis has said, but wanted to add my two cents in.
I think, that people are scared to venture to try new things, particularly food training, as people think treat training = bad habits. Well my question, is how many of you feed your horses from a bucket in a stable or in the field? Does he mug you? Does he chase you around trying to consume you
I think, as with punishment, it is all about timing which is that clicker training is all about! I think it's unfair to assume that you can train any horse with out needing to use clicker or not use clicker! We're all individuals as are our horses and we have to respect that our horses are the same- individuals. Some horses don't respond to totally to negative reinforcement based training (i.e. using a dually or pressure and release system).
I think that there are huge misunderstandings also in treat training. My horse used to mug me for treats before we began clicker training, but I taught him not to mug using treats. I think it's unfair to assume that this system is causing bad horses. My horse has developed both physically and more importantly mentally. A lot of clicker training is done through trail and error on the horses behalf. Without writing an essay, we usually use shaping or chaining plans, which allow the horse to do things at his own accord. The thing I find with some of these ideas, is that horses are forced to comply and submit, or they are here all day. My horse has the choice to work with me in the field, and 90% of the time, he comes to play and we do some training. Will attach a vid in a second.
I totally respect why people are skeptical of using treat training, I was, but I used the thing that motivated my horse the most and used it to train him, we then, as Taz said, fade the clicker, after moving onto a variable schedule of reinforcement. It sounds ridiculous and lots to learn, but it's amazing.
It's great if you can train without needing to use a clicker, of course, but there is nothing wrong with using one too. It doesn't make you a better trainer or a worse trainer, it makes you a trainer of your horse and that is that.
What people forget, is clicker training is just a general phrase, it's much easier than saying ''I am a positive reinforcement, clicker/cllucker/voice/body language and treat trainer''
. I personally use the click sound, for several reasons. 1) I use voice combined with clicker, however I use my voice to cue behaviours and then the click as a consistent sound to mark the end of the behaviour. I use a ''goooood'' as a keep going cue, and the click as a terminal stimulus.
2) I have speech issues, without going into huge details, I have respiratory issues, since I was a baby and my voice can fluctuate in sound greatly, things come out perhaps poorly and therefore not how I mean it. People misinterpret that, sometimes I sound snobbish other times I mutter and other times I sound sarcastic. So, for my horses sake, I combine the clicker with my voice, as the consistent end cue.
I've taught behaviours with the clicker, which are now asked for without needing to click and treat and he doesn't mug me anymore either. Clicker training is not a system, it wasn't founded by anyone, it's learning and theory and behavioural science, from years of tests- from Pavlovian conditioning to Fred Skinner's work and Karen Pryor introducing it into the dog world and so on. Nobody pioneered this or founded the method, it's a system based on solid, hard scientific evidence, which is practical and a good tool to add onto your training regime. It aids training, you don't need anything special, you can use scratches instead of treats, you can use a cluck or an 'x' or special word instead of a 'click'. I use treats and a click because my horse is more motivated by treats and thus training progresses faster and the click as stated above.
Nobody is suggesting you train like this, nobody thinks it's a better system. We combine clicker with other things, just as you apply your system of working (i.e. praising with your voice and scratches) it may work for you and that's fantastic, but your horse isn't my horse and vice versa, it's unfair to mock a system because you think it's rubbish because what you do works. I despise Linda and Pat Parelli, however, have used their 7 games on my youngster! I'm not a brain washed, cult follower, I just take good bits and apply them. Although I'm a fan of the classical training school of work and riding, which also fits in well with clicker!
Now, for the videos, a lot of these are work in progress. I am at school and have little time to see Shadow because he's kept quite a way away and I have restricted facilities yadeya ya. Anyway, feel free to critique, because I put my vids on youtube for that reason, however please respect that these aren't all finished products and we're both novices, who are learning an awful lot of one another, he's a different horse now and I am proud of him and what he does for me. He's forgiving and patient when I make mistakes, and tolerates my faffing around now. So please don't mock my horse or begin stereotyping, cos he's a clever lad, with a high IQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXVE6mDYSRU&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ1mJAzNSmk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
May I also add, that many of these behaviours aren't pointless, and come in very handy for what we do! They may look pointless. I think nothing is pointless, because sometimes you can just have fun training a behaviour. I used to compete and ride dressage an awful lot, however since having Shadow, I've learnt that we can have fun without riding/ After all, one coulisd argue what is the point in riding
horses don't actually NEED to be ridden, not really. But we ride them to keep their minds active, for our own pleasure and to develop their fitness. Training on the ground with or without clicker, is good fun. It isn't all doom and gloom and is a great way to get to know your horse and earn his respect and trust. For that, I couldn't be happier to have met my horse and gained a wealth of understanding of horses in general. How to appreciate them Happy horse training everyone. Whether you clicker train, clucker train, ''non-circus-trick'' train, or just train in general
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
That's an interesting post, good read, thanks.
(I think it's generally worth sticking to using people's forum names?).
I had a friend who worked for a reputable equine rescue. She found clicker a really useful tool when the babies came in, as they did every year. Maybe 4 little foals to a stable, that had been weaned from their mothers at the auction and manhandled about, completely traumatised. She used to introduce them to clicker over the door, then teach them to target on a stick, and once that was established she could at least start to make move them about without a halter. They would follow her to and from the paddock just by following the stick. She continued to use clicker with them during their education, and also (I cringe as I type this...) Parelli. All I can say is that it worked very well for her and the frightened little ponies.
(I think it's generally worth sticking to using people's forum names?).
I had a friend who worked for a reputable equine rescue. She found clicker a really useful tool when the babies came in, as they did every year. Maybe 4 little foals to a stable, that had been weaned from their mothers at the auction and manhandled about, completely traumatised. She used to introduce them to clicker over the door, then teach them to target on a stick, and once that was established she could at least start to make move them about without a halter. They would follow her to and from the paddock just by following the stick. She continued to use clicker with them during their education, and also (I cringe as I type this...) Parelli. All I can say is that it worked very well for her and the frightened little ponies.
amandap
Well-Known Member
That's just how I feel atm.Actually, I don't think I have the strength to get into desensitsation and flooding. I've had a great afternoon out with the pones, and now I've got work to do. I can't set off at another tangent.I'll just peer in when i get bored and see what everyone's saying.
Back from a fair and did resist various donkeys, goats, ducks, piglets, calves and ponies.
Very nearly aquired some bantums though.Golf Girl
Well-Known Member
Hear hear! It seems to be a common misconception on this forum that 'we' are a small, elite 'clique' who all know each other and share the same views and value sets. We're not. This is a large, public equestrian forum and like it or not, 21st century 'horsemanship' is much less exclusive, and much more wide and varied than ever before. Different viewpoints can't just be rubbished and shouted down any longer - 'natural horsemanship' is as valid as any other branch of equestrianism. Better get used to it
Golf Girl
Well-Known Member
They are very different. Desensitising is much preferable and more effective, in my humble opinion
Natch
Well-Known Member
I completely agree that there is a huge difference in the emotional result on the horse. I have been doing a lot of thinking about behavioural and training theory, and one of the outcomes of my thoughts is that I think the two can be different ends of a continual scale - when does one become the other and what defines that?
Actually, I don't think I have the strength to get into desensitsation and flooding. I've had a great afternoon out with the pones, and now I've got work to do. I can't set off at another tangent.I'll just peer in when i get bored and see what everyone's saying.
Oi you, you started it!
Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
Interesting thread.
The cavalry used to sound a cannon at midday which is when the horses got their hard feed -- and that is how they got horses to gallop towards the Russian guns at The Charge of the Light Brigade!
Coming to training horses from parallel disciplines, it was natural to me to desensitise my youngsters and was amazed at the criticism I got from some other horse owners. Do they not send their kids to nursery school?
Dog proofed....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llLgWst3UlQ
Umbrellas....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YvSxLA7A_U
Training a youngster....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ia34rjhBgA
The cavalry used to sound a cannon at midday which is when the horses got their hard feed -- and that is how they got horses to gallop towards the Russian guns at The Charge of the Light Brigade!
Coming to training horses from parallel disciplines, it was natural to me to desensitise my youngsters and was amazed at the criticism I got from some other horse owners. Do they not send their kids to nursery school?
Dog proofed....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llLgWst3UlQ
Umbrellas....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YvSxLA7A_U
Training a youngster....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ia34rjhBgA
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
They are very different. Desensitising is much preferable and more effective, in my humble opinion
Whilst I agree they are different, it can be argued that flooding may be the result of a handler/trainer who may not be subtle enough or not understand how a desensitizing technique can be the cause of flooding.
For example, using the green ball, I say this because it is what I am familiar with, can easily cause flooding rather than the desired desensitizing. Where there is no escape the horse may submit to having the ball placed on its back. When done properly the horse accepts this as par for the course, understands there is no danger or threat of danger and stands relaxed. Conversly, the ball placed on a flooded horse's back is still there but the horse is not relaxed and can and will explode.
The result appears to be the same but to the skilled trainer the difference in the horse is obvious. To some trainers what I have said is blindingly obvious, to others it is not.
tazzle
Well-Known Member
Agree with you there ..... great example of this today at our agility club.
we had a new obstacle to build and it include a lot of rustly tarp style material so we the opportunity to increase the "energy" we could put into a flappy tarp ..... both horses are already habituated to tarps including it being placed right over them. However his is a different colour and much, much bigger so they both had bit of a look as we shook it.
so I took it and let Taz have the full lenght of the line while I shook it vigourously, She looked andmoved a foot or two but did not take up the slack. I jsut kept on at the same energy and as she relaxed I gradually moved closer.... did this till she was happy ( floppy ears) to have it all over, down the back and pulled around her legs.... and this is about 20 foot long.
other person holds horse on short rope and tells him to stand ( which he didnt) while she shook the tarp. She did get him eventually to "accept" it but he was a hand taller and very "alert".
I accept there might be vallue is sometimes being able to get a horse to stand when the proverbial hits the fan so not saying she is wrong.... just an illustration that I feel differentiates between desenitisation and flooding.
baymareb
Well-Known Member
This is an interesting thread actually. My take on a couple of things -
Desensitizing - I don't generally set out to deliberately do this but I always take the opportunity to work around potentially scary things. My stable is a big one with a lot of activity so there are often people filling up large plastic bags with manure, tractors driving about, vaulting shows with fluttering flags, visitors with dogs, people with umbrellas on rainy days, etc.
Honestly I think the most valuable thing when working a horse near anything like that is the handler's expectations - if I'm holding my breath and expecting my horse to freak out, she's probably going to. If I treat it as a normal occurrence, she barely flicks an ear.
Training with treats - I did some clicker training with my mare and she caught on quickly but she really didn't seem to need the clicker to "lock" the behavior - the treat itself did that. As someone else said, as far as treats go, it's all in the timing - I would add also the frequency.
My mare is very food oriented - she really equates a treat with her behavior. I only treat her when she perfectly performs whatever behavior I'm asking for and I don't treat every time - in fact, I generally only treat once or at most twice in a session. Their natural optimism works as well (or better) than the knowledge that they'll get a treat every time.
She never, ever mugs for treats. She knows that she only gets them by hand during a training session and only rarely then. She also doesn't nip. My daughter's horse, on the other hand, makes no association between a treat and his behavior so there's no sense using it as a training tool. It all depends on the horse.
As for Parelli, I don't use any one system to train. I've taken bits and pieces that I agree with from a number of clinicians, used a number of tried and true traditional methods and added in a large dose of common sense to train my mare. It seems to be working well and no one appears to be confused.
Much of Parelli seems to be similar to others but with cutesy names - the porcupine game, the friendly game, etc. Much of it I don't like at all. My horse has learned to keep out of my space by me using my body language to push her out of it, not by shaking a lead rope at her. I don't like the idea of my horse trailing behind me on a lead - I prefer to have her next to me on a loose lead. And I do think too many people are using it who are looking for a fits-every-size handling method because they don't have the experience or common sense to appreciate the diversity in horses.
Sorry, longer than I meant it to be.
Desensitizing - I don't generally set out to deliberately do this but I always take the opportunity to work around potentially scary things. My stable is a big one with a lot of activity so there are often people filling up large plastic bags with manure, tractors driving about, vaulting shows with fluttering flags, visitors with dogs, people with umbrellas on rainy days, etc.
Honestly I think the most valuable thing when working a horse near anything like that is the handler's expectations - if I'm holding my breath and expecting my horse to freak out, she's probably going to. If I treat it as a normal occurrence, she barely flicks an ear.
Training with treats - I did some clicker training with my mare and she caught on quickly but she really didn't seem to need the clicker to "lock" the behavior - the treat itself did that. As someone else said, as far as treats go, it's all in the timing - I would add also the frequency.
My mare is very food oriented - she really equates a treat with her behavior. I only treat her when she perfectly performs whatever behavior I'm asking for and I don't treat every time - in fact, I generally only treat once or at most twice in a session. Their natural optimism works as well (or better) than the knowledge that they'll get a treat every time.
She never, ever mugs for treats. She knows that she only gets them by hand during a training session and only rarely then. She also doesn't nip. My daughter's horse, on the other hand, makes no association between a treat and his behavior so there's no sense using it as a training tool. It all depends on the horse.
As for Parelli, I don't use any one system to train. I've taken bits and pieces that I agree with from a number of clinicians, used a number of tried and true traditional methods and added in a large dose of common sense to train my mare. It seems to be working well and no one appears to be confused.
Much of Parelli seems to be similar to others but with cutesy names - the porcupine game, the friendly game, etc. Much of it I don't like at all. My horse has learned to keep out of my space by me using my body language to push her out of it, not by shaking a lead rope at her. I don't like the idea of my horse trailing behind me on a lead - I prefer to have her next to me on a loose lead. And I do think too many people are using it who are looking for a fits-every-size handling method because they don't have the experience or common sense to appreciate the diversity in horses.
Sorry, longer than I meant it to be.
Spudlet
Well-Known Member
Common sense - the most valuable tool any trainer, whatever their chosen method, can ever have!
There's more than one way to do anything you care to mention, so why should training a horse be any different? Do what works best for you and your horse, remember there is always something new to learn for everyone, and you won't go far wrong
There's more than one way to do anything you care to mention, so why should training a horse be any different? Do what works best for you and your horse, remember there is always something new to learn for everyone, and you won't go far wrong
amandap
Well-Known Member
Hehe. I'm dying to know what is going through that hounds mind... "how do you get up there?"... lol
Incidentally, does this vid show the power of food? lol
Natch
Well-Known Member
Very true. The click is only really needed if a) you're interested in seeing how it works and/or b) you're planning on working at a distance or in a type of work which you can't stop and treat for (or are working from a distance and can't get the reward to the horse quickly).
The voice is also a great and widely used secondary reinforcer.
Now then, can anybody who knows their behavioural theory help me here? I have:
Cicker and reward (secondary and primary reinforcer)
Voice (another reinforcer)
Wip to tap tap horse to illicit desired response (what is this called?)
M action which I want the horse to respond to (cue)
So say I want my horse to raise his left leg when I raise mine.
I raise my leg (provide a cue, or is it a primary reinforcer? Something else?). Gie horse a chance to see and respond. No response, so I tap leg gently with whip indicating I'd like him to do something with that leg (is that called a secondary cue?) He picks up leg (offers correct response) and I click (secondary reinforcer) and treat (primary reinforcer) and use my voice (out of habit not necessity - but is this a 3rd reinforcer??)
Anyone who can help me by coming up with the technically right names for the above sequence gets a cup of hot chocolate with extra whipped cream on top!
Captainmouse
Well-Known Member
well had my thoughts on Parelli well and truely confirmed this weekend having watched a horse rear up and go over, whilst being parellied and being told it was good cos she was locking on, I'll continue to avoid like the plaque!
Natch
Well-Known Member
Hello and welcome to the forum captainmouse. Have you been here before?
Captainmouse
Well-Known Member
Nope 1st post, have been reading for a while
tazzle
Well-Known Member
it is not a cue as it means nothing yet to the horse, its not linked to an established behaviour ..... unless of course your horse already has learnt the principles of copying body actions in which case maybe rethink this
,
the tap of the leg is an aversive if he is sufficiently bothered by it to move the leg away. It can later become the cue.
hmm technically it depends on the timing .... if you released the pressure (stopped tapping) before you clicked then its was negative reinforcement taking place. If you click just before you release the pressure then it is more likely to be viewed by the horse as positive reinforcement. This is a huuuuge topic and it depends on which "expert" you listen to as to whether they think any or what level of aversive should be used.
Has your horse for definate made the connection that your voice means he is correct........ it could be a conditioned ( learned) reinforcer
It is hard to say categorically as human voices have such variation and we use certain words like "good girl" so often when not linked to an actual action its very confusing for the horse........... although indeed I was able to tell that new loaner of Bonney was using those words as the "click" before she told me or I saw .... Bonney "told" me
well I have done this very quickly ....... but I like hot chooccy
do I get a mouthful ?suejs001
Member
Why blame it on the horse - why blame it on Parelli - get over yourself have you ever thought it could have been YOU that was the problem!
FGS the Parelli method is just fine if it is taught correctly as is every other method.... but everything is down to interpretation and rather than MOANING about said livery on here and the horse and Parelli you would be better speaking to the owner CONSTRUCTIVELY if that is at all possible. Just because you don't do Parelli does not mean that it is not a good way to teach and train your horse. Come play with my boy sometime anytime lets see what kind of horse woman you really are ... Mmmm Narrow Minded and biggoted perhaps????
FGS the Parelli method is just fine if it is taught correctly as is every other method.... but everything is down to interpretation and rather than MOANING about said livery on here and the horse and Parelli you would be better speaking to the owner CONSTRUCTIVELY if that is at all possible. Just because you don't do Parelli does not mean that it is not a good way to teach and train your horse. Come play with my boy sometime anytime lets see what kind of horse woman you really are ... Mmmm Narrow Minded and biggoted perhaps????
DragonSlayer
Well-Known Member
Who is this aimed at? There are many for and against people participating on this thread....
fatpiggy
Well-Known Member
The biggest problem is that an awful lot of people have jumped onto the bandwagon of "horse whispering", Parelli, "natural horse methods" or whatever and embraced them with biblical zeal, but as with most things in life, it takes YEARS of practice to become good at anything, so you get someone who has watched a couple of, say, Parelli demonstrations, thinks they know it all and set to work ruining horses, and the reputation of the technique. I taught my horse to back up on command simply by touching her chest and saying back. Now, after many years I just say BACK and she will keep going until I stop saying it. Its a method I've used for donkey's years, stresses no-one and WORKS. When I first got her I did use join-up with her as much to see what she knew and what she didn't, but us old fogeys know that join-up is just plain and simple and totally obvious body language and has been going on since the year dot. You don't need a tickling stick, tambourine or speaking in tongues to train animals, just common sense, fairness and empathy.
suejs001
Member
Sorry I didn't realise it was 36 pages long i just saw the initial comments and posted a reply at the person who was ranting to begin with. (I was searching for something came across pink / parelli and I felt the urge to reply!!!
I have used the method on my 8 year old since he was a foal and I also use it on my yearling it has nothing to do with the horse or method it is down to how it is interpreted IMO
I have used the method on my 8 year old since he was a foal and I also use it on my yearling it has nothing to do with the horse or method it is down to how it is interpreted IMO
Enfys
Well-Known Member
Are you talking about the original post? Untwist your knickers lovely, you'll give yourself a headache too with all that bitchiness bubbling about in there
Presumably you have read everything else too then, let me get something straight here, no I didn't beat the pony, OR leave it running around with a rope attached either, Okey dokey?
You aren't Sue James are you? From Carms?
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DragonSlayer
Well-Known Member
Ah, I see!
I too, have had dealings with Parelli, personally, I didn't rate it, and that wasn't just from seeing one horse......but perhaps thats because the human didn't know what they were doing, I don't know.
But as I have also said, it is down to the individual horse and the owner. If it works for you, then thats great, and keep at it.
I call my handling of horses 'Herd Mentality'. No, it doesn't mean I boot them in the gut with metal shoes on just coz they stuck their nose in my feed bucket...! I believe it's all about being firm and consistent, and showing the horse that unfortunately, I'm top of the shop but I DO respect the fact they are a horse.
The result?
Well-mannered and pleasant animals to deal with, and the family are all safe if they all handle them.
suejs001
Member
I agree fat pig it is a mind-set last night I was helping with an un-handled wild brood mare - direct line thinking was not going to work she was terrified but using body language and empathy did ... I know how long parelli as a method takes and it takes a great deal of hard work time patience understanding and being prepared to look like an idiot and to be bullied by those who are not willing to let it be. There are a lot of people who talk Parelli who practice who are not very good but is that not the same for any horse person??? just coz you can ride one horse does not mean you can ride! My point is it isn't the horses fault, it isn't the methods fault - the method has proved itself to be sound - it is how that is interpreted and then put into effect. I myself used to think it was just circus tricks until i had the need to venture down this route - i was very much a traditionalist but sometimes you have to do what you have to do. It opens your eyes to see actually yes this stuff works.
If my horse rears - it begs the question why is he rearing - If my horse bolts why does he bolt if he bit or kicked the same thing - horses don't do these things there is a reason and those that don't understand horse psychology should look into this before knocking natural horsemanship of any ilk.
I don't go round bashing people up for using a gag / draw reins / as saddle that is too small / spurs / whip / riding too hard handed etc etc as the list is endless - just let people do what they want to do ...
If my horse rears - it begs the question why is he rearing - If my horse bolts why does he bolt if he bit or kicked the same thing - horses don't do these things there is a reason and those that don't understand horse psychology should look into this before knocking natural horsemanship of any ilk.
I don't go round bashing people up for using a gag / draw reins / as saddle that is too small / spurs / whip / riding too hard handed etc etc as the list is endless - just let people do what they want to do ...
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Suejs001, why don't you wind your neck in for an hour, make yourself a coffee and sit and read the whole thread?
(I can't believe it's been resurrected yet again LOL!).
p.s. I'm an ex Parelli student and yes, it does work fine when applied properly, but I do think it's a pretty harsh way to go about things. People keep telling me things have changed. Well, I was at a clinic last weekend where there was a lovely lady with her horse. They are STILL teaching people to smack their horses around the face with the clip in the Yo Yo "game". And it still hurts horses. And there are still better and fairer ways to go about things.
Are you Sue James then???)
(I can't believe it's been resurrected yet again LOL!).
p.s. I'm an ex Parelli student and yes, it does work fine when applied properly, but I do think it's a pretty harsh way to go about things. People keep telling me things have changed. Well, I was at a clinic last weekend where there was a lovely lady with her horse. They are STILL teaching people to smack their horses around the face with the clip in the Yo Yo "game". And it still hurts horses. And there are still better and fairer ways to go about things.
Are you Sue James then???
)suejs001
Member
As previously mentioned I did a search for a pink halter and came across this post I replied without realising it was 36 pages long.... I have read quite a bit of this now but not all and as previous I have said I am sorry for jumping in with two feet without realising that it was 36 pages.
As for the comment about winding my neck in ... and other remarks, I do not apologise for the comments I made about blaming the horse or the method, this is just indicative of my experience.
I have said my bit (a bit too hasty) and that is that ... I have nothing further to add or subtract on the subject and it looks like it has all been said both for and against and i believe we all have the right tho choose and not be criticised / made to feel an idiot out of what we chose to do with our horses and keep our opinions to ourselves. What I cannot stand and the reason I replied was that rather than ranting on here about the horse and its lack of manners and the parelli method - speak to the owner. Dont blame the horse. For all we know the person who owns the horse may say she does parelli but may do it really badly ?? how do we know?? There are two sides to everything. Sue is a fairly common name!
whilst you were at the clinic did you not ask the PP taking the clinic why they were using a phase 4 on the yo yo? Anyway, enough said on the subject and each to there own!
As for the comment about winding my neck in ... and other remarks, I do not apologise for the comments I made about blaming the horse or the method, this is just indicative of my experience.
I have said my bit (a bit too hasty) and that is that ... I have nothing further to add or subtract on the subject and it looks like it has all been said both for and against and i believe we all have the right tho choose and not be criticised / made to feel an idiot out of what we chose to do with our horses and keep our opinions to ourselves. What I cannot stand and the reason I replied was that rather than ranting on here about the horse and its lack of manners and the parelli method - speak to the owner. Dont blame the horse. For all we know the person who owns the horse may say she does parelli but may do it really badly ?? how do we know?? There are two sides to everything. Sue is a fairly common name!
whilst you were at the clinic did you not ask the PP taking the clinic why they were using a phase 4 on the yo yo? Anyway, enough said on the subject and each to there own!
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Sorry for offending with the wind yer neck in comment, it wasn't meant as sharply as it came over when typed. ;-)
It was not a Parelli clinic. She had been having some lessons with one of the newer Parelli professionals currently on their list of UK instructors. Fortunately I don't think she's going to be having any more.
I wouldn't have needed to ask her why she was using the Yo Yo, or why she was using phase 4. I spent some years as a Parelli student and worked for them for a while, so I know the answer to that one. It's a rough and ready way to get a horse to back up though. I also puts in all sorts of braces you don't want on the ground or when you ride, it has them reversing in a state of tension with their neck on upside down.
It was not a Parelli clinic. She had been having some lessons with one of the newer Parelli professionals currently on their list of UK instructors. Fortunately I don't think she's going to be having any more.
I wouldn't have needed to ask her why she was using the Yo Yo, or why she was using phase 4. I spent some years as a Parelli student and worked for them for a while, so I know the answer to that one. It's a rough and ready way to get a horse to back up though. I also puts in all sorts of braces you don't want on the ground or when you ride, it has them reversing in a state of tension with their neck on upside down.