Rant - why can't greyhound breeders remove dew claws!

[Leo Walker]

It's amazing to watch isn't it? If you take photos - some of the angles they get themselves into just seem to deny gravity!

My heart literally sings watching them! I'm fat and disabled so watching my 2 run for the sheer joy of running literally takes my breath away! I can be limping and lurching along and then I let them off and its poetry in motion!

 

[{97702}]

Fair enough about the bone cancer but surely the dental issues are environmental rather than genetic? I was under the impression that racers are fed their food as slop to aid re-hydration which would unfortunately not do anything to promote healthy teeth.

That is definitely a factor for ex-racing greyhounds, but poor teeth are also a genetic thing - e.g. some lines of dogs within my mum's breed have worse teeth than others

 

[{97702}]

Regardless of our different views about removing dew claws, I hope your girl is soon well again. (((Vibes)))

Thanks FL She is doing fine at the moment and is (amazingly) leaving it alone so fingers crossed it is healing nicely

 

[{97702}]

As regards the removal of dew claws, they are present in most wild canids and I've never felt the need to remove them. Where a breed has been changed by breeders from what I would call a "normal" shape, perhaps there is a need. But that choice if best left to their owners. I've noticed the dew claw being brought into use when a dog tries to claw it's way up a steep incline and they do use that part of the foot when cleaning/grooming their faces and ears.

To me that is the equivalent of saying that horses still have ergots, or humans still have an appendix - yes, they do, but domesticated versions of animals (or humans themselves) have evolved to the extent where those attributes are no longer needed?

Perhaps my dogs should just think themselves fortunate that we don't live in a particularly hilly area of the country - and no, nor do we encounter barbed wire on our walks

 

[planete]

planete, yes, and that's why we keep them, don't we?

Stunning pics, just stunning. He's(?) got a fair bit of back, and he does look rather 'well', but a particularly handsome animal. He's so like our boy Dave! I can't post pics. I would that I could!!

Alec.

Thanks for the comments. He does look 'well'. He is certainly not working fit, I am too old and decrepit to put in the hours and the miles!

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Thanks FL She is doing fine at the moment and is (amazingly) leaving it alone so fingers crossed it is healing nicely

Glad to hear that it is healing well .

Fingers crossed for that it continues that way.

 

[{97702}]

LOL love the smiley as usual FL I can see this thread is descending into the ridiculous as usual when certain users get involved, so I won't bother posting on it again - oh for the good old days of AAD lol

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I think its a sighthound thing! People genuinely dont understand how fast they go and how sharp the turns are until they have one! Even when we are just playing fetch in the park, mine go at full speed and if the ball bounces they can literally turn on a knife edge! My dog is only 21 TTS but hes still caught up with hares who zig zag all over the place! He doesnt run in a straight line even when playing. He runs on a curve, and if theres something hes chasing he does knife edge turns. Full 360s even when hes flat out. I assume its bred into them as if he was catching food for the pot as a living he'd have to be sharp and athletic to do it

No, I haven't owned a sighthound, and I willingly admit that I don't know if the ones that I've met have been good or less fortunate examples of their breed/breed group, but as said, I've seen some run and play (one of the main goals for my old dog club, was to provide an opportunity for good dog socialization with lots of different breeds), and I'm just basing my reply on what I've experienced.

Norwegian Buhunds was developed to be able to e.g. herd goats up and down steep cliffsides in Norwegian fjords. I would describe their tight turns, as that they're also capable of making fast turns on a knife edge. Even though I have deep respect for dogs capable of catching a wild hare, if Norwegian fjords doesn't count as knife edges, what does?

As I remember it (my last Buhund died 2008, so it's been a few years since I've seen it), my Buhunds usually did their fastest tight turns by, sort of, bouncing up and start to turn in the air, but I can't recall having thought about if they did or didn't use their dewclaws as an aid when they landed and finished the turn. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't, I don't know.
I agree that watching sighthounds run, can be like seeing poetry in motion, and I'm sure a Buhund would lose in a real Greyhound race on a track. But since they're smaller than most sighthounds breeds, it to me looked as if they needed less distance to reach their top speed. So when the sighthounds they've played with has managed to reach their top speed, and do their fast, tight turns in a higher top speed, I sometimes only saw it in the corner of my eyes, because my Buhunds had often already turned around and was heading in another direction.

Maybe there is a specific sighthound way to lean and use their dewclaws as an aid in a tight turn, but I can't change the fact that I've read about other breeds using their dewclaws in some situations too, sometimes leading to them getting debris stuck on their dewclaws.
E.g. I've read this page about Boxers, http://www.old.euro-boxer.com/study/pet_level/boxer_exercise/boxer_puppy_exercise.html, it is about puppies and exercise, but it also mentions dewclaws:
(Quote) Additional evidence comes from the fact that working dogs will get grass and dirt stuck in the dewclaws, indicating that they are being used, and from photos showing the dog's foot on the ground and the dewclaw dug into the ground. The pressures on the dog's foot are the same, but if there is no dewclaw there to grip the ground, the pressures will go to the elbow, the other toes, the wrist, the shoulder possibly causing unsoundness and arthritis later on. Gratefully, most Boxer breeders in Europe recognize the important function of dewclaws and don't remove them.(/quote)

Since I thought it was fascinating to hear that 2Greys had read

... an article in the past about agility dogs were it was suggested those minus dew claws were more suseptible to (I think) carpal injury instead...

I did a search, but I didn't find the article. But I did e.g. find this page http://retrieverman.net/2013/08/14/the-purpose-of-dewclaws/ where one response says that "Coursing dogs (and others) use their dewclaws in cornering and braking. Agility dogs use their dewclaws in gripping, turning, braking." And this page http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art1863.asp, where it says that "Dogs that regularly compete in agility or work as herding dogs have also been shown to use their dewclaws for practical applications."

I also found this page http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/dewclawexplanation_rev_apr_10_2013.pdf

I don't know if what I've quoted from the links is correct or not, but I feel lazy, so instead of going through my dog books to find where I've read about dogs of different breeds using their dewclaws, I'm just using the above as examples of what I've read and heard before this thread.

Lastly, I've not intended to say that I know that none of my bitches has definitely never gotten any debris stuck between a dewclaw and the leg. Maybe they have, and have cleaned it away themselves, before I saw it, or maybe I have at some time during about 24 years of dog owning found some debris stuck on a dewclaw, removed it and forgot about it.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

LOL love the smiley as usual FL I can see this thread is descending into the ridiculous as usual when certain users get involved, so I won't bother posting on it again - oh for the good old days of AAD lol

In general, I don't mind people having a different opinion than mine, as long as I do not have to agree with them. My biggest problem is usually to stop trying to explain why I think the way I do.

 

[{97702}]

In general, I don't mind people having a different opinion than mine, as long as I do not have to agree with them. My biggest problem is usually to stop trying to explain why I think the way I do.

I dont mind people having a different opinion than mine, as long as they know what they are talking about. Which generally they don't in some cases

 

[Fides]

To me that is the equivalent of saying that horses still have ergots, or humans still have an appendix - yes, they do, but domesticated versions of animals (or humans themselves) have evolved to the extent where those attributes are no longer needed?

Perhaps my dogs should just think themselves fortunate that we don't live in a particularly hilly area of the country - and no, nor do we encounter barbed wire on our walks

I thought ergots were what kept the back legs together in the womb (and chestnuts the fronts)?

I dont mind people having a different opinion than mine, as long as they know what they are talking about. Which generally they don't in some cases

That is your opinion

 

[{97702}]

I thought ergots were what kept the back legs together in the womb (and chestnuts the fronts)?



That is your opinion

Wikipedia (which of course is always right ) says "the ergot is thought to be a vestige of some part of the ancestral foot of the multi-toed Equidae" - it doesn't serve any useful function any more.

Indeed it is my opinion....but then I know who I would rather belong to if I were a greyhound

 

[Alec Swan]

LOL love the smiley as usual FL I can see this thread is descending into the ridiculous as usual when certain users get involved, so I won't bother posting on it again - oh for the good old days of AAD lol

I dont mind people having a different opinion than mine, as long as they know what they are talking about. Which generally they don't in some cases

Why are you so aggressive? Why is it that when you choose to contradict someone, you refer to them, as being ignorant? I rarely reply to your irrational tirades, because there seems little point. I would point out to you though, that I am not ignorant, my experience with dogs is such that though I feel a degree of confidence, I'm more than happy to learn from a child. Your apparent aggression would suggest that you too could benefit by listening to others.

Were the 'Good old days of AAD', those days when others didn't contradict you, and point out that your mostly irrational outbursts, contributed nothing to the relevant discussion?

Your continual refusal to accept any points made by Dry Rot, really does your credibility little in the way of favours. Rarely would I take the side of another, and I hope that this doesn't embarrass D_R, but I can assure you that not only is he a Qualified Vet, but though now a man of advancing years, in his day, he trained English Pointers, extensively, he made up many Field Trial Champions, in itself no mean feat, and also many to International level. Amongst the most fierce of competition, he held his own and succeeded, and importantly, he held the respect of his peers.

Greyhounds, Pointers, GSDs, Sheepdogs, Labradors and Poodles, are all dogs. They will probably have breed traits which need to be worked around, BUT; A dog is a dog, and with a few variances, most canines think alike. Some will be more tractable than others, but if we accept that an understanding of the canine thought processes, MUST be the precursor to working with the animal itself, then Dry Rot's opinions, are worth listening to. With the greatest respect to you, I'd suggest that instead of arguing that 2+2=5, that perhaps you make the attempt to listen.

I do hope Levrier, that you will accept that this thread is not an attack upon your person, but an attempt to encourage you to consider the views of those who do actually know what they're talking about. The other option, of course, is to place those with whom you seem to have such problems, on User Ignore.

I'm offering the above thoughts in a kindly manner, and I hope that that's how you accept them.

Alec.

 

[Spring Feather]

I dont mind people having a different opinion than mine, as long as they know what they are talking about. Which generally they don't in some cases

But you see this is where I'm confused; you said you'd never seen a dog using it's front dew claws; that I find a very odd comment to make because I've never seen a dog not use it's front dew claws. My dogs use theirs for holding things, climbing, scratching, motability etc.

 

[Fides]

Wikipedia (which of course is always right ) says "the ergot is thought to be a vestige of some part of the ancestral foot of the multi-toed Equidae" - it doesn't serve any useful function any more.

Indeed it is my opinion....but then I know who I would rather belong to if I were a greyhound

My statement was somewhat rhetorical as I have witnessed several birthings now and seen how the foals come out with their legs attached together.

Also what an odd point to make how greyhounds would be happier with you - can you qualify that please?

Alec - I agree with your point wholeheartedly. This poster has got my back up... For what end?

S_F - mine use their dew claws all the time too, and the one that doesn't have them frequently falls over or crashes into things due to not being able to corner properly

 

[{97702}]

But you see this is where I'm confused; you said you'd never seen a dog using it's front dew claws; that I find a very odd comment to make because I've never seen a dog not use it's front dew claws. My dogs use theirs for holding things, climbing, scratching, motability etc.

I am not sure why that causes you confusion - I haven't seen it, you have. I thought that was quite straightforward?

 

[{97702}]

My statement was somewhat rhetorical as I have witnessed several birthings now and seen how the foals come out with their legs attached together.

Also what an odd point to make how greyhounds would be happier with you - can you qualify that please?

Alec - I agree with your point wholeheartedly. This poster has got my back up... For what end?

S_F - mine use their dew claws all the time too, and the one that doesn't have them frequently falls over or crashes into things due to not being able to corner properly

Ahhh you see unfortunately I do not have a crystal ball and therefore didn't appreciate it was a rhetorical question, apologies in that case! I'm not quite sure what qualification of my comment you are looking for however? I am sorry you feel that I have "got your back up" this was not my intention with my original post, which was simply a minor rant about the unnecessary injury caused to my dog which could so easily be avoided by a responsible breeder. As with every post on this forum, that was my opinion and I am free to articulate it if I wish to do so in the same way that others are free to disagree as some have done.

Interestingly my largest greyhound chased a cat over tarmac/gravel the other day, he has done 5 1/2 years on the track so is pretty experienced and he was running flat out and cornering sharply on many occasions ... he came back with grazes on his hind legs between hocks and paws, his stopper pads raw and bleeding, the claws on all four feet scraped down to nothing so some of those were bleeding too..... and no damage or impact on his dew claws at all.

 

[Fides]

I'm not quite sure what qualification of my comment you are looking for however? I am sorry you feel that I have "got your back up" this was not my intention with my original post,

I was asking why you think a grey would have a better life with you than, say, me?

Interestingly my largest greyhound chased a cat over tarmac/gravel the other day, he has done 5 1/2 years on the track so is pretty experienced and he was running flat out and cornering sharply on many occasions ... he came back with grazes on his hind legs between hocks and paws, his stopper pads raw and bleeding, the claws on all four feet scraped down to nothing so some of those were bleeding too..... and no damage or impact on his dew claws at all.

Odd.

 

[{97702}]

I was asking why you think a grey would have a better life with you than, say, me?

I wasn't referring to you when I made my original comment

 

[Fides]

I wasn't referring to you when I made my original comment

Oh I wasn't implying you were, I just said '...say, me...' As I hold the opposing viewpoint to you so am curious as to what you could offer to my dogs, that I don't offer myself. The scientist in me means that I am always learning and have changed my views on things I have believed, when shown 'the errors of my ways'. For example my views on fox hunting have taken a complete 180. I want the best for my animals and would love to know any tips on improving how I keep them.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

In my first replies on this thread, I became one of those persons who wrongly writes a compound word, dewclaw, as two words

. Could people please stop to tempt me to fall back in that pattern, or give me an example on why Wiktionary and Google translate are wrong, and dewclaw is in fact not a compound word, without correctly spelled with two words.


Even though I've in some situations sometimes noticed that my bitches uses their dewclaws, there is also situations where they might be using them, but I'm still completely oblivious to whether they use them or not. I presume that if my bitches had had more problems with their dewclaws, I might very well have agreed with Lévrier, and also said get rid of them.

I hope that day never comes, but if it comes a day when I would not want to be a dog that lived in my home, it is the day it's time for me to stop owning dogs.

ETA: I don't think that there is only one perfect way of owning dogs. I know owners who do things different than me, but I don't automatically think that either of us have to be doing something wrong, without I think that there is room for individual differences.

 

[{97702}]

I was suggesting that as a greyhound I would rather belong to me than other forum users who have been documented as saying that (for example) they don't worm their puppies, that they think a dog needs to know who is boss & can be trained by fear and intimidation and who appear to think that every bitch should be bred from purely because it has a womb.

 

[Fides]

I was suggesting that as a greyhound I would rather belong to me than other forum users who have been documented as saying that (for example) they don't worm their puppies, that they think a dog needs to know who is boss & can be trained by fear and intimidation and who appear to think that every bitch should be bred from purely because it has a womb.

This has no relevance to the thread

 

[{97702}]

It has every relevance to the point I was making in that particular post, which was whether I respect the opinions of certain forum users and whether I feel they know what they are talking about. I fully appreciate that there are differences of opinions about dew claws, that much is clear

 

[Dobiegirl]

Gordon Flipping Bennet, what is wrong with you all, the girl was having a rant fgs, we've all had those, some people on here take themselves far too seriously and when people start to talk down to people and be arrogant what do you expect the reaction is going to be?

 

[bonny]

Gordon Flipping Bennet, what is wrong with you all, the girl was having a rant fgs, we've all had those, some people on here take themselves far too seriously and when people start to talk down to people and be arrogant what do you expect the reaction is going to be?

My thoughts exactly, Levrier knows her dogs and is entitled to just have a rant if she wants one !

 

[Clodagh]

I thought ergots were what kept the back legs together in the womb (and chestnuts the fronts)?

You are joking, aren't you? I'm being slow tonight - need more wine!

 

[Alec Swan]

Gordon Flipping Bennet, what is wrong with you all, the girl was having a rant fgs, we've all had those, some people on here take themselves far too seriously and when people start to talk down to people and be arrogant what do you expect the reaction is going to be?

I agree with you, entirely, and I think that it's a great shame when AAD, such a usually friendly thread, declines in to one of personal insults, whether we agree, or not.

Perhaps it might be an idea for you to take 'the girl', as you refer to her, on one side and point out that her rudeness and her insults which have been aimed at others, and for some while now, could be perhaps reduced in their focus. It seems to me that 'the girl', by her spite and her discredit of others, rather brings the criticisms upon herself.

Me? Mostly I ignore her silly asides, but if you wont tell her, then others will. Again, a sad day for AAD, but for how long do others tolerate her rudeness? Veiled, or on occasion open insults can only be tolerated for so long.

Eventually the recipients of her constant sniping will decide that enough's enough. I would that there was another way.

Alec.

 

[Fides]

You are joking, aren't you? I'm being slow tonight - need more wine!

Nope I'm not...

Sheep don't have them and quite frequently they will be born with a leg back requiring human intervention. As the chestnuts on foals are fused together this doesn't happen (or rarely).

cant find the fab pic I had of it

 

[Dry Rot]

Just a bit of an aside really as I couldn't care two hoots who cuts dew claws/dewclaws off their dogs, but is this a permitted surgical procedure under the veterinary surgeons act or something that may only be performed by a vet? I think tail docking now has to be done by a vet and i suspect the old fashioned cropping of ears in some breeds is also prohibited, (a) because it is surgery, and (b) the vet won't do it anyway if it's for cosmetic reasons!

And before I am dragged out and burnt at the stake, I don't cut dew claws/dewclaws, dock tails, and I certainly don't crop ears!

For the record, I too am grateful that the OP isn't my dog, so that's at least two of us happy! As for the spelling of dew-claws, the correct version is the one that clearly and concisely gets the meaning across. English is a living language and is in a constant state of change. 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'' Quite rightly so too!