Rant - why can't greyhound breeders remove dew claws!

[{97702}]

For the record, I too am grateful that the OP isn't my dog, so that's at least two of us happy!

I am so pleased to read that....although I suspect you do not do the things I have listed above either....

 

[{97702}]

Gordon Flipping Bennet, what is wrong with you all, the girl was having a rant fgs, we've all had those, some people on here take themselves far too seriously and when people start to talk down to people and be arrogant what do you expect the reaction is going to be?

LOL DG thank you - but I think this will fall on deaf ears to some extent

 

[Dobiegirl]

I agree with you, entirely, and I think that it's a great shame when AAD, such a usually friendly thread, declines in to one of personal insults, whether we agree, or not.

Perhaps it might be an idea for you to take 'the girl', as you refer to her, on one side and point out that her rudeness and her insults which have been aimed at others, and for some while now, could be perhaps reduced in their focus. It seems to me that 'the girl', by her spite and her discredit of others, rather brings the criticisms upon herself.

Me? Mostly I ignore her silly asides, but if you wont tell her, then others will. Again, a sad day for AAD, but for how long do others tolerate her rudeness? Veiled, or on occasion open insults can only be tolerated for so long.

Eventually the recipients of her constant sniping will decide that enough's enough. I would that there was another way.

Alec.

Are you reading the same thread as me? Im being really kind now but that is a very patronising and condescending post, as far as Im aware Levrier dosnt post much on here so for her to constantly snipe at others would be an impossibility. Ive disagreed with her in the past but as adults we have agreed to disagree, some views we share and others we dont which is what a forum should be about. I havnt noticed her rudeness, She did say several pages back that you were ignorant of Greyhound genetics, that is not the same as calling you ignorant in fact I could say the same of me, my knowledge of Greyhound genetics is woefully inadequate hence my ignorance on the subject.

You make the op to be the source of AAds troubles which she isnt, I remember you asking SusieT if she was drunk, now that is rude, stop making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[minesadouble]

Nope I'm not...
I
Sheep don't have them and quite frequently they will be born with a leg back requiring human intervention. As the chestnuts on foals are fused together this doesn't happen (or rarely).

cant find the fab pic I had of it

I may be ignorant when it comes to the pros and cons of leaving dewclaws on dogs (and have read the discussion with interest) but I do know for definite that chestnuts on foals in utero are not fused together.

 

[Alec Swan]

Are you reading the same thread as me? Im being really kind now but that is a very patronising and condescending post, .......

Offence is taken, and not offered. It was an attempt at bridge building, perhaps not a pearl, but waisted, none the less.

Alec.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Just a bit of an aside really as I couldn't care two hoots who cuts dew claws/dewclaws off their dogs, but is this a permitted surgical procedure under the veterinary surgeons act or something that may only be performed by a vet? I think tail docking now has to be done by a vet and i suspect the old fashioned cropping of ears in some breeds is also prohibited, (a) because it is surgery, and (b) the vet won't do it anyway if it's for cosmetic reasons!

And before I am dragged out and burnt at the stake, I don't cut dew claws/dewclaws, dock tails, and I certainly don't crop ears!

For the record, I too am grateful that the OP isn't my dog, so that's at least two of us happy! As for the spelling of dew-claws, the correct version is the one that clearly and concisely gets the meaning across. English is a living language and is in a constant state of change. 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'' Quite rightly so too!

The Kennel Club's site doesn't mention a veterinary surgeons act, instead as I understand it, it says that it is a permitted procedure listed in the Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) Regulations 2007, schedule 1. In schedule 9 it is clarified that "a layperson or veterinary surgeon may continue to remove the dewclaws of puppies whose eyes have not yet opened." But as soon as the puppy have opened its eyes, dewclaw removal requires that "anaesthetic must be administered".


Language may evolve and change, but separating compound words means that according to Google translate, I've partly been talking about claws with dew on, not dewclaws. And if you ever need to use Google translate to translate a Swedish text, there is some difference between e.g. reading about a brown-haired nurse (brunhårig sjuksköterska), and a brown hairy sick nurse (brun hårig sjuk sköterska).

 

[{97702}]

The Kennel Club's site doesn't mention a veterinary surgeons act, instead as I understand it, it says that it is a permitted procedure listed in the Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) Regulations 2007, schedule 1. In schedule 9 it is clarified that "a layperson or veterinary surgeon may continue to remove the dewclaws of puppies whose eyes have not yet opened." But as soon as the puppy have opened its eyes, dewclaw removal requires that "anaesthetic must be administered".


Language may evolve and change, but separating compound words means that according to Google translate, I've partly been talking about claws with dew on, not dewclaws. And if you ever need to use Google translate to translate a Swedish text, there is some difference between e.g. reading about a brown-haired nurse (brunhårig sjuksköterska), and a brown hairy sick nurse (brun hårig sjuk sköterska).

That latter paragraph made me lol FL

And you are quite correct, a layperson can remove dew claws in very young puppies - I have seen it done many times

 

[TrasaM]

I've been following this thread and now I'm intrigued

Anyone can remove a pups dew claws before it's eyes open ? Would seeing the blood traumatise it or what?

Also I'm forever banging my little toe. Should I have it removed?

Lighten up people

 

[vikkiandmonica]

I've been following this thread and now I'm intrigued

Anyone can remove a pups dew claws before it's eyes open ? Would seeing the blood traumatise it or what?

Also I'm forever banging my little toe. Should I have it removed?

Lighten up people

I think removing the dewclaws without anesthetic when the puppies are tiny is akin to tiny babies being circumcised without anesthetic... Maybe it's because they just don't remember because they're so small when it happens? However, having been on work experience and seeing some small puppies get theirs removed (by a reluctant vet), they still seemed to feel the pain, judging by the sounds they made anyway

As for your little toe, chop it off, though if you're planning on taking bends sharply you may fall over

 

[TrasaM]

Oh oh..I'm stuffed then. I usually bump them when I take corners too sharply now you tell me if I chop them off I'll fall over instead of hurting my ickle toe
Oh dear..decisions decisions

 

[MurphysMinder]

I think removing the dewclaws without anesthetic when the puppies are tiny is akin to tiny babies being circumcised without anesthetic... Maybe it's because they just don't remember because they're so small when it happens? However, having been on work experience and seeing some small puppies get theirs removed (by a reluctant vet), they still seemed to feel the pain, judging by the sounds they made anyway

As for your little toe, chop it off, though if you're planning on taking bends sharply you may fall over

Really?! As I said earlier in this thread, I have seen rear dew claws removed on quite a few occasions (by a vet), and there has never been more than a slight squeak from the pup, and just a tiny drop of blood. A clotting powder is applied and there is very little bleeding. I have heard 2 day old pups make far more noise/fuss when mum accidentally knocks them off a teat. They are usually ack feeding within seconds of the claw being removed.

I have learned something from this thread though, I don't know why but for some reason I thought Dry Rot had gone to RVC but had a change of mind about his choice of career and moved on to other things. Thanks for putting me right Alec.

 

[CAYLA]

I agree with DG, the OP was having a little rant and it has old blown out of proportion and I do agree the old age thing does come over patronising imo, it seems if you are not 90 plus then you know little about anything.
I have had lots of lurchers/greyhounds/whippets and still do (Im youngster though), (well compared to the ancients I am) I have had them both as pets and used for coursing (not me) but OH....my whippets all had dew claw issues inc my current whippet (one in particular) but he is a hard little thing and it does not seem to bother him to much when he injures it and as he does not bother/chew/lick so it heals pretty quick. 2 of my whippets had to be removed (both legs) as it was constant injury with long recovery times, esp when they proceeded to lick constantly and they where kept very short but still would almost tear them half out and yes I can concur I have noted mud and grass in the claws.
I can also say dew claws (off) made no difference in their ability to turn or their speed of which I noted, the coated lurchers never really suffered this way (maybe all that extra hair on legs)? . I agree interestingly with the poster who said the surface on which the dog is running probably plays factor in injury sustained, like broken toes!
I will give a stab at answering OP and say maybe greyhound men would not like the expense of removal/or be bothered to do it themselves, we all know racers get a pretty crappy innings! and running on sand probably equals no injury so I guess they see it as no big deal and I doubt they give a toss about when they go to pet homes and most will deem them dead dogs once their racing days are gone at the grand old age of 2 or 3.

 

[CAYLA]

Oh oh..I'm stuffed then. I usually bump them when I take corners too sharply now you tell me if I chop them off I'll fall over instead of hurting my ickle toe
Oh dear..decisions decisions

I would say chop it off...but becareful you don't start stubbing the next one in or your will have 1 big toe left

 

[Dry Rot]

The Kennel Club's site doesn't mention a veterinary surgeons act, instead as I understand it, it says that it is a permitted procedure listed in the Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) Regulations 2007, schedule 1. In schedule 9 it is clarified that "a layperson or veterinary surgeon may continue to remove the dewclaws of puppies whose eyes have not yet opened." But as soon as the puppy have opened its eyes, dewclaw removal requires that "anaesthetic must be administered".


Language may evolve and change, but separating compound words means that according to Google translate, I've partly been talking about claws with dew on, not dewclaws. And if you ever need to use Google translate to translate a Swedish text, there is some difference between e.g. reading about a brown-haired nurse (brunhårig sjuksköterska), and a brown hairy sick nurse (brun hårig sjuk sköterska).

Apart from the fact that I wouldn't believe anything the KC said, you will notice that I used no capital letters in the hope that someone else would do the research I couldn't be bothered to do! It worked! Many thanks.

 

[Dry Rot]

Really?!
I have learned something from this thread though, I don't know why but for some reason I thought Dry Rot had gone to RVC but had a change of mind about his choice of career and moved on to other things. Thanks for putting me right Alec.

You are both incorrect. I was thrown out of the RVC , or rather jumped before I was pushed. One of the more sensible things I have done in my life and something I have never regretted for one moment. I could cope with the animals but not with the owners!

But Alec is correct about the dogs. I have been involved with working dogs at the deep end since my early teens.

 

[Alec Swan]

...........my whippets all had dew claw issues inc my current whippet (one in particular) ....... and yes I can concur I have noted mud and grass in the claws.

I can also say dew claws (off) made no difference in their ability to turn or their speed ........

Too many anomalies to deal with; You had whippets with dew claw issues, you've noticed that dogs collect grass and debris under the offending dew claw, and then by all accounts, the dew claws made no difference in their abilities.

Perhaps you could clarify things, so that a geriatric can better understand.

Alec.

 

[CAYLA]

Too many anomalies to deal with; You had whippets with dew claw issues, you've noticed that dogs collect grass and debris under the offending dew claw, and then by all accounts, the dew claws made no difference in their abilities.

Perhaps you could clarify things, so that a geriatric can better understand.

A, my whippets have had dew claw issues (resulting in a few having them removed)
B, in regard to it being mentioned re witnessing muck/grass in dew claws and those who have noticed grass or mud in dew claws (I have too) so im saying "oh yeah, me to" said in an American style voice lol
C, I have not noted any change in my dogs ability to turn or their speed in doing so once dew claws off (an observation) from me, and another topic within this post, some mentioning the use of dew claws in turning, which of course it will indeed, so I mention (no negative) effects from mine being removed.

No deviation you see


All of the above are related to topics covered in this post! in no particular order. I was not aware one of the elder rules was to mention only one topic per reply.

 

[Alec Swan]

Are you reading the same thread as me? ......., She did say several pages back that you were ignorant of Greyhound genetics, that is not the same as calling you ignorant .......

You make the op to be the source of AAds troubles which she isnt, I remember you asking SusieT if she was drunk, now that is rude, stop making a mountain out of a molehill.

AlecSwan also shows his ignorance of greyhounds by stating they are free from genetic disorders - .......

A few points for you; Read the quoted post, and you will see that Levrier believes than I'm ignorant of greyhounds. At no point have I said that they are free from genetical disorders. Read my posts and you will see that I believe the disorders to be 'Mostly', limited. I stand by that, and any suggestion that they have genetic dental disorders, is just nonsense. Greyhounds, thankfully, and despite the pressures upon them, seem to be relatively free from genetic disorders. Quote me again, by all means, but do try to stick to facts.

I haven't 'made' the op to be the source of AAd's troubles, far from it. What I have said is that she takes a surprisingly antagonistic stance to those who disagree with her. Were the dear lady concerned, prepared to read and to listen, so her education may be advanced.

SusieT's offering? My word but you have a memory, and you're able to store ammunition, or so it seems. My suggestion that SusieT had been drinking, was when she suggested that my working Cocker pups, IN A HEAT WAVE, AND IN JUNE, could be cold! It was a tongue in cheek offering, so perhaps in future I'll be a little more circumspect, assuming that I can be bothered.

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......

C, I have not noted any change in my dogs ability to turn or their speed in doing so once dew claws off (an observation) from me, .....

.....and another topic within this post, some mentioning the use of dew claws in turning, which of course it will indeed, ......

.......so I mention (no negative) effects from mine being removed.

No deviation you see

.......

Further apparent contradictions. I'm doing my best to understand, assimilate and take in your points, but I'm struggling. I'm not taking the pee, I simply don't understand. It seems that you haven't noticed any changes in all your dogs which have had Dew Claws removed, presumably as adult animals(?), but it seems that in line 2 you accept that it will indeed (make a difference?), and then in line 3, there are no negative effects from having Dew Claws removed, again and presumably, from adult dogs. In 60 years (and no intentions at an age deference here~!) I've never had Dew Claws removed from an adult dog.

Alec.

 

[CAYLA]

Further apparent contradictions. I'm doing my best to understand, assimilate and take in your points, but I'm struggling. I'm not taking the pee, I simply don't understand. It seems that you haven't noticed any changes in all your dogs which have had Dew Claws removed, presumably as adult animals(?), but it seems that in line 2 you accept that it will indeed (make a difference?), and then in line 3, there are no negative effects from having Dew Claws removed, again and presumably, from adult dogs. In 60 years (and no intentions at an age deference here~!) I've never had Dew Claws removed from an adult dog.

Alec.

I shall go again...Indeed dew claws must play a part in turning, otherwise mud and grass would not get stuck in them, unless its from skidding to a stop (which is possible and most likely how it happens) but even IF/WHEN used when turning, it has had no NEGATIVE effects on my dogs ability to turn or stop, they still turn just as affectively at immense speed, they still caught rabbits as they had before and they still kept up or out run the other lurchers in play as they always did. I am not arguing that dogs DON'T need dew claws but they can hinder a dog when they cause ongoing issues as people have mentioned in this post inc me, having injured them and not being able to run at all without moaping about and limping along and being obs to sore to run then obs having them removed in these instances can see activity restored to usual.

Edited to add, I would not remove front dew claws as per routine, I would remove and have for repetative injury.

No condradictions either, they will indeed use the dew claws when turning I aint denying that, but Im stating removing them makes no difference that I have noted to their ability to still turn on a six pence as they once did with them, they did not suddenly become incapable or look to loose speed or struggle post removal.

 

[Alec Swan]

...Indeed dew claws must play a part in turning, otherwise mud and grass would not get stuck in them, .......

And THAT POINT, throughout this tortuous thread, has been the nub of the argument; DOGS, SPECIFICALLY COURSING DOGS, DO ACTUALLY NEED THEIR DEW CLAWS!

Bingo, progress!!

Alec.

 

[Fides]

Alec - You're shouting

 

[CAYLA]

Further apparent contradictions. I'm doing my best to understand, assimilate and take in your points, but I'm struggling. I'm not taking the pee, I simply don't understand. It seems that you haven't noticed any changes in all your dogs which have had Dew Claws removed, presumably as adult animals(?), but it seems that in line 2 you accept that it will indeed (make a difference?), and then in line 3, there are no negative effects from having Dew Claws removed, again and presumably, from adult dogs. In 60 years (and no intentions at an age deference here~!) I've never had Dew Claws removed from an adult dog.

Alec.

I think I see where you are misreading or I have used "it" instead of "they"! Im saying dew claws will "indeed" be used when turning for some dogs at least, but I did not say they make a "difference" in the dogs ability to turn, they can still turn! they don't become impaired and unable when they are removed. I used the word "it" instead of "they" see below as Im not to good at quoting.
Im saying "of course they will indeed be used" but im not saying they make a "difference" to the dogs ability, and not of what I have noticed in my own.

.....and another topic within this post, some mentioning the use of dew claws in turning, which of course it will indeed, ......

 

[CAYLA]

Alec - You're shouting

 

[CAYLA]

And THAT POINT, throughout this tortuous thread, has been the nub of the argument; DOGS, SPECIFICALLY COURSING DOGS, DO ACTUALLY NEED THEIR DEW CLAWS!

Bingo, progress!!

Alec.

Nope...only progress in your mind!, they may indeed use them!!, but they don't need them!!, as otherwise dogs that have had them removed would become incapable of coursing, to which mine never....that's what Im telling you, they may use them, but they don't become incapable of turning if they don't have them ta dar!!

 

[Fides]

Don't laugh - so were you I should bang your heads together

 

[CAYLA]

Don't laugh - so were you I should bang your heads together

I am dealing with an ancient though, you have to speak up, as either they are deaf or simply WON'T hear you. I am also contending with the possibility of poor eye sight too...all factors I must account for

 

[{97702}]

Nope...only progress in your mind!, they may indeed use them!!, but they don't need them!!, as otherwise dogs that have had them removed would become incapable of coursing, to which mine never....that's what Im telling you, they may use them, but they don't become incapable of turning if they don't have them ta dar!!

Ah someone who knows what they are talking about we miss you on here Cayla

 

[Alec Swan]

Alec - You're shouting

Don't laugh - so were you I should bang your heads together

Finally, Cayla and I are in agreement!!

You're right, Fides, and I apologise. It was a simple case of frustration!

Alec.

 

[{97702}]

I will give a stab at answering OP and say maybe greyhound men would not like the expense of removal/or be bothered to do it themselves, we all know racers get a pretty crappy innings! and running on sand probably equals no injury so I guess they see it as no big deal and I doubt they give a toss about when they go to pet homes and most will deem them dead dogs once their racing days are gone at the grand old age of 2 or 3.

I think you are absolutely right here