Reaching your talent limit as a rider?

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BeckyD

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A bit of an introspective fretting from this quarter over the weekend. I was very poorly last week so my instructor rode Bill during my intended lesson Friday. He went so well, and looked fabulous. :D The next day I went to do two novice dressage tests and still didn't get the scores he deserves (from his work at home - I can't seem to ride him well at shows so the scores were perfectly fair).

My question is, realistically and honestly is there a limit to an individual's riding abilities? I feel like I've hit mine. My skill set seems better suited to settling wayward beasts and sticking on when all hope of floor-avoidance seems lost. I don't think I have the right skills for developing a dressage pony. Or indeed a jumping pony.

It seems such a shame as I have a lot of determination and drive, but am hampered by my own ability. Has anyone else ever felt like this? I'm doing my lovely talented horse such a disservice.

What do you do? Just accept this is it and live with it? :(

Sorry I've just eaten a whole bag on mini eggs so I have nothing to share.
 
I struggle with similar worries but having doen quite a bit of research on sport physcology be careful your mind does not limit your ability! If you believe you have reached your limit you will not improve.

I honestly believe that I am not the most naturally talented rider but by working v hard I have improved and still can. I always remember Lucinda Green saying something similar!

I had a day yesterday where the jumping did not go well and in my own my mind I am convinced put a capable jockey on and the horse will benefit! However I am determined to improve and get things better and when I look back I can see significant improvements.

I guess my advice is focus on the positive and don't let your mind limit you.
 
good advice sarah jane! i think mind over matter can affect things massively!

i see some not so talented riders competing competitively round 1.20m!

My mind tells me my limit is 1m and that i dont want to push myself further than that cause i worry about hitting a bigger fence on a duff stride and wrecking mine and the horses confidence!
 
Sarah_Jane said:
I struggle with similar worries but having doen quite a bit of research on sport physcology be careful your mind does not limit your ability! If you believe you have reached your limit you will not improve.

I honestly believe that I am not the most naturally talented rider but by working v hard I have improved and still can. I always remember Lucinda Green saying something similar!

I had a day yesterday where the jumping did not go well and in my own my mind I am convinced put a capable jockey on and the horse will benefit! However I am determined to improve and get things better and when I look back I can see significant improvements.

I guess my advice is focus on the positive and don't let your mind limit you.
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Hmm I guess deep down I don't really believe that mind over matter will work. Perhaps I should try to get to some sport psychology sessions. I really do have a lot of enthusiasm and a desire to learn, but I think I'm getting frustrated that I have this horse who is at home working nicely and then I get to a dressage comp and it all goes to pot and it's my fault and I can't seem to ride properly even though I know (half the time) what I'm doing wrong.

I know it's no consolation to you but if great riders like you have thoughts like that then it's no surprise that lesser riders like me would feel the same sometimes. Bah! I'm going to do as you say and look back and see the improvement and try to focus on the positives (not one of my strengths, that).

lyndsayberesford said:
good advice sarah jane! i think mind over matter can affect things massively!

i see some not so talented riders competing competitively round 1.20m!

My mind tells me my limit is 1m and that i dont want to push myself further than that cause i worry about hitting a bigger fence on a duff stride and wrecking mine and the horses confidence!
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Ha your last para sounds like me. I'm happy to bumble round 1m courses but when they get bigger I think "yikes if we're on a duff stride it's going to be a disaster" so I stop riding, so we get a duff stride and it is a disaster and hey presto I was right ;) Self-fulfilling prophecy.

Ho hum. Guess it comes back to the mental aspect.

But seriously, surely we all have a limit - same as horses have a limit of ability? Or should I just not think about it?
 
Will be interested to read what others say. As I too often feel that I have reached my limit as a rider, as I don't seem to have improved much recently and I am struggling like mad to move up to the next level.
 
Becky I often feel like this, but then I usually give myself a bit of a mental lecture about how this is our hobby it is supposed to be fun, however hard I try even if I had unlimited funds I'm never going to ride like Carl Hester as I have to work and only really ride one horse. You will get there look at your x-c you went from struggling (annoyingly at the smallest fences) to going clear over 90 tracks last year! You can do it!!!
 
Came to that conclusion about ten years ago and quit showing dressage. I always forgot how to ride as soon as we went into the ring and our scores never reflected the work I could get out of the horse at home, or even in the warm-up arena. And then I thought, well, it looks as though I'll never get past Medium anyway. I can put a foundation on a young horse, so that's something, but I don't think I'll ever be a super talented dressage rider.
 
Interesting question. I don't really think talent has that much to do with being a good rider, hard work, being inquisitive and proactive means a lot more. Absolute olympic top level however - you probably need both, but even there you get quite far with the right horse power.

The right combination of raw talent, education and experience is unbeatable and will get you further than having just one or two of those "traits". For results and achievements, horse power is incredibly important, whether help or hindrance - you won't get very far without a good horse. Good horses make good riders, simple as that. Without having felt on a good horse what you are looking for, it is hard to know what feeling to try and emulate on a lesser horse. So beg, borrow and steal rides on the best horses you can - even if just the odd lesson on a schoolmaster or having a sit on a friends really good horse.

I think it is more important to determine the level you are comfortable at, and trying to be the best you can possibly be at that level. And what IS talent? Just a raw ability to do something right, like seeing a stride? Or is it in fact also the will to learn, to slog it out, to constantly try and improve and analyse on a day to day level?

No - we are not all going to have the feel and raw talent of Charlotte Dujardin or Marcus Ehning or whoever at the top (and possibly not the right circumstances either) - but with training and hard work we can all for sure learn to be good riders. Plenty of riders at high enough levels who have managed to get there with a normal amount of talent and hard work and at some stage sheer talent becomes indistinguishable from education and experience.

To me it is about personal goals, being the best you can be at a level you have decided - I am not super "talented", and I know that I don't really want to compete much bigger than 1.20m classes SJ because of my own comfort level combined with money to achieve it. But I am damn well going to learn to ride every single round, on every horse, the best I possibly can.
 
Sorry Becky - but I think you need a kick up the arse! :-p

You and Bill are doing great together, and are totally unrecognisable as a partnership these days, compared to the beginning.

You do really well with him, from what I can gather he isn't easy and can exploit any chinks in your armour. Don't let an off day (after a week of being totally wiped out) make you question yourself.

I'm sure you will go great guns this season :-D
 
Not really read any of the replies, but obviously everybody has a 'talent ceiling' the way you manage your beliefs is the way to avoid hitting your personal ceiling.
An example would be the success of the Saudi SJ team, ok so they bought good horses but they had to learn to ride them and they did that by following good instruction.
Sometimes I find that people who are successful (in any sport) are the ones who have the strongest mindset, they can go out there and follow a specific instruction to the letter because they have worked on developing that 'focus'.
Try a few NLP or sports psychology books and see if you want to delve further.
 
Like others have said your problem sounds like a lack of confidence not talent. I think hard work and the right horse are far more inportant than a bit of talent. We all feel that we are letting down our horses at some point or another, but as long as they are warm and fed they don't care. I don't have any transport and have had recent money trouble so my "Super SJ 4yo" is now a 6yo who has been to 3 shows, but she's happy.
 
BeckyD - I have had the same introspective thoughts since a disappointing performance yesterday. I can get the feel I want in dressage lessons, horse never touches a pole in training etc, but in competition I seem to morph into a wooden puppet who has never sat on a horse before, leading to a dressage score 10% below what we are capable of and knocking down the first two SJs before I pulled myself together and realised I was supposed to be riding...

I am planning to book a session with a sports psychologist because I'm fed up of feeling this way, and I know the problem lies in my mind/body communication somewhere!

You clearly haven't reached your limit as a rider, as you can obviously get your horse working well in training. I keep telling myself the same thing!

Just wanted to let you know that you're not alone - and I know how frustrating it is when we put in so much time, money and effort. I too see people wobbling around 1.20m and wonder how the hell they get away with it, and I've come to the conclusion that self-belief goes a long long way! Easier said than done though...
 
I don't think its a talent ceiling that holds us back but often the fact we see someone else get a better tune out of our horses and assume we'll never achieve that.

Besides it is back to that definition of talent, is talent looking pretty and riding correctly on a horse , is it being effective and getting results but inelegant on a horse or is it both and both may be unobtainable for most of us.

Reaching a personal talent ceiling is surely dependent on your available time, money and resources to throw at getting there. I can't imagine there is a person out there who has nothing to learn as horse training is an evolving episode as new practices / techniques are being discovered all the time.

Whats in your head will determine your talent ceiling and when we think we've reached it.

Personally I'm not sure it something that can be reached.
 
Depends what you want to do

There are a lot of sports outside of the norm where you can shine, have you ever thought about tentpegging, horseback archery, polocrosse, horseball etc?
 
What you absolutely need to read is the book called Bounce by Matthew Syed. In it, he totally demolishes the myth that there is anything such as natural talent. Talent is simply experience - people who appear to be naturally talented with horses very often have simply ridden many more horses many more times than anyone else. Matthew Syed's version is that if you practice in the right way, you will become talented. I thought it was a fascinating book and one that really encourage me to up my game, both with the horses and at work.
 
I'd have a read up on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy too, it looks into how you think about things and if it's negative in any way the tutor will help you find a way to turn it around. I have found it absolutely fascinating and invaluable, I used it over my fear of public speaking when I became an Events Manager and found I couldn't do that aspect of my job at all well! I booked 6 CBT sessions and by the end of them my nerves were almost gone and I was able to deliver a confident speech.

I often thought I was nothing better than a happy hacker with a total inability to perform under pressure (shows) and I was not capable of jumping anything over 2ft 6. I then moved yards and had to change instructors which I thought would be the beginning of the end. I found an exceptional instructor and within 3 years (it's not a quick process) I had gained in confidence enough to go out hunting, do RS dressage, show jumping and mini ODE's and I was actually going around with a smile on my face instead of clamping down on the reins and saddle as if I was riding to my death. Horsey was so much happier too and his cribbing stopped very quickly.

I still had negative days where my instructor would pop on him and take him round an enormous course of jumps but she was good enough to say to me that she was older, more experienced, rode a huge variety of horses and was a naturally confident person that didn't suffer from nerves but it cost her a lot of broken bones in the past!

In the end I realised my problem was not talent, it was confidence and that is something you have to build up very slowly with the help of a decent instructor. You would never overface a horse so don't overface yourself either :)
 
I don't think it's necessarily talent - it's to do with self belief and confidence.

Both my OH and I struggle with self belief, & both have HUGE wobbles, but a really positive trainer & watching ourselves ride on camera a lot has really helped us.

If you believe that you have reached your telnet ceiling, you won't progress. If you believe you can keep making progress, you will :)
 
I think that 'talent' in itself is not a useful measure - it is one small part of a bigger picture.
I'd say 'Riding' limit is probably a better way to look at it, this would then be broken down into:
- Natural Talent
- Learning ability
- Funding/Training access
- Confidence
- Luck (!)

So the more of each of those you have the higher your overall riding limit will be.

Says someone who questions their ability on a daily basis LOL!
 
kit279 said:
What you absolutely need to read is the book called Bounce by Matthew Syed. In it, he totally demolishes the myth that there is anything such as natural talent. Talent is simply experience - people who appear to be naturally talented with horses very often have simply ridden many more horses many more times than anyone else. Matthew Syed's version is that if you practice in the right way, you will become talented. I thought it was a fascinating book and one that really encourage me to up my game, both with the horses and at work.
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Definitely a useful book to read.

The only thing I would say is he does touch on but not develop the difference between "simple skills" and "complex skills". The former are your attributes - height etc. You can practice all you want but if you are 5' tall you are not going to be a star in the NBA.

This is also pertinent to horses. Not every horse has the raw ability to jump 1.50 well and consistently. That said, MANY horses do that ability and don't become GP horses - the difference is in how they are trained, managed etc. It also means there are lots and lots of horses - most even - that are no where near their "ability ceiling" in the work they are being asked to do, which is the same for riders. You can be the "right" shape to ride or have a beneficial mental outlook, but if you don't put the work in (and, as said, the money and, to some extent, the luck, at least as it pertains to not getting hurt etc.) then it's all for nought. I think the general feeling (there was actually a French study on this) is that 10% of success is innate ability and 90% is development. It is true, you will likely not be absolutely top drawer without the former but luckily, few of us have that as a goal! I would argue there are horses and people with Olympic medals who are not, strictly speaking, the absolutely most physically talented specimens around.

So yes, there can be limiting factors both personal and situational. Time to devote to the task is a big one for most people and, to some extent, not something that can be easily changed.

An example I can use with impunity . . . last week I rode 6 different horses, including 1 I'd never sat on before. And this is nothing compared to the number I've ridden at various times in my life. I've had hours and hours and hours of instruction, sometimes on more than one horse every day. I've also spent hours and hours having to sort things out on my own. And there are MANY people (Charlotte Dujarding springs to mind) who have logged many times that amount of experience and training, especially in specific areas. Someone riding one horse 5 times or so a week is NEVER going to catch up in terms of a general body of knowledge/skill. OF COURSE your instructor rides the horse well. She damn well should! That's presumably why you're paying her. ;)

Let it go. Don't compare yourself. There is no point to that.

Luckily most people only have to learn to ride a very few horses well and many can learn to do that better than someone with more generalised knowledge can ride those particular horses.

The ability to show a horse well is NOT an innate talent. Some people are probably better set up for it initially but performance is a learned skill, even for people who possess the actual skills they are trying to perform. Again, you may be limited in the time and attention you can put towards developing it but that is no reason not to try.

If you don't WANT to compete, so be it. That is a completely valid choice. But make it a choice, not something you feel is thrust upon you by Fate.

Re your personal performance . . .I suggest you read back over your posts on here. ;) I think you will find you have made great strides, even from what I remember. Sometimes we get so stuck on the negatives we forget to take note of the positives, with ourselves and our horses. This is not only depressing, it's bad training. In order to progress you have to see things as the REALLY are, which means good as well as bad. There is no sense being modest or self-deprecating inside your own head, whatever reasons you may have for reacting that way externally. I think the same thing creeps in to people's training - the horse improves and immediately they take that as a given and move immediately on to something more. So they are never, every happy (which is different from satisfied) and neither is the horse. Enjoy the journey a bit.

All the great horsemen I know really love horses and delight in every small victory, even as they look to the bigger picture. They all have confidence wobbles (but they tend not to discuss them endlessly . . .) and then they get back on the horse the next day and try to find the joy in it.
 
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I am really humbled by everyone's response to this thread. I am relieved to see that I'm not alone. Thank you to all of you, very much. I will do some reading about CBT/NLP/sport psychology etc. As a psychology graduate I suppose I'm coming to the party rather late. I'm someone who has always toddled along never really getting my knickers in a twist about much, I enjoy competing and I don't get nervous and I confess I thought that area of psychology wasn't necessary for someone like me.

I've been told many times that I don't have the "winning" mindset when competing. And I do get caught up in the negatives. We did a perfect flying change in my lesson a couple of weeks ago and I barely had to think about it; I just asked and it happened (only just started working on them). My immediate thought was "well we won't do THAT again" and I got (rightly) told off by my instructor for being so negative. I'm a perfectionist to a detrimental degree.

Bill and I have come a long way and I am able to see that. I find it very hard to be pleased about that though as my mind is completely overwhelmed with how much further we have yet to go. And I want everyone to see how amazing he is and yet all they see is me riding like a complete tool!

Time for me to go and do some work on me I think. I spend all my mental effort trying to learn how to ride better without thinking about that from a more rounded perspective.

Thank you all. Honeymoon reading - some "improving" books :D
 
sweet_decline said:
BeckyD - I have had the same introspective thoughts since a disappointing performance yesterday. I can get the feel I want in dressage lessons, horse never touches a pole in training etc, but in competition I seem to morph into a wooden puppet who has never sat on a horse before, leading to a dressage score 10% below what we are capable of and knocking down the first two SJs before I pulled myself together and realised I was supposed to be riding...

I am planning to book a session with a sports psychologist because I'm fed up of feeling this way, and I know the problem lies in my mind/body communication somewhere!

You clearly haven't reached your limit as a rider, as you can obviously get your horse working well in training. I keep telling myself the same thing!

Just wanted to let you know that you're not alone - and I know how frustrating it is when we put in so much time, money and effort. I too see people wobbling around 1.20m and wonder how the hell they get away with it, and I've come to the conclusion that self-belief goes a long long way! Easier said than done though...
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I shall do the same re sports psychologist. I agree and it's a great point - I can get him working nicely at home (hence the whole disappointment at shows) so that's a positive :D Good luck with your journey :)
 
Bounty said:
Sorry Becky - but I think you need a kick up the arse! :-p

You and Bill are doing great together, and are totally unrecognisable as a partnership these days, compared to the beginning.

You do really well with him, from what I can gather he isn't easy and can exploit any chinks in your armour. Don't let an off day (after a week of being totally wiped out) make you question yourself.

I'm sure you will go great guns this season :-D
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Haha thank you! Yes I do need a kick up the backside! I always say "we'll get there eventually" but I'm just having the sort of weekend where I think if "eventually" means when he is 20 and I'm going grey, I shall be quite disappointed. I want to fast-forward the bit where I'm rubbish and get to the good stuff ;)

Just LOVE your P pictures :D :D :D
 
So, I spent 20 minutes trying to write something resembling that ^^ and gave up :D

But yeah. On a really basic note, your instructor is meant to be better than you. I mean, it's their job to ride and train horses- if they couldn't get on and do more than you, why would they be teaching you? I think you have to embrace that fact and almost enjoy it, and see it as what your horse will be doing with you once you've got more experience and hours of good practice.
 
You obviously can do it because you do it at home. Your post is mis-titled! You haven't reached your limit, you are having problems during competition and that isn't the same thing at all :)
Obviously your instructor rides better than you, you wouldn't be having lessons from some one who wasn't as good as you were would you?!
From what you've written you are just a bit stuck in your own head and it's blocking your progression and performace in a competition environment. Everyone has those moments where they fail to meet their own expectations. The dissappointment you experience when you haven't achieved what you think you should and when Charlotte or Carl or Mary or whoever don't is excatly the same. It's easy to look at someone riding at a higher level and think they have natural talent or they are perfect but I garantee they are kicking themselves just as much as you are.
It's the nature of our sport to constantly look at what needs to improve, which is a good thing but if you aren't careful it can also be destructive.
For what it's worth here is my advice.
Things to help with your mind set:
1) keep a journal of your performance so when you feel rubbish you can look back through it and see that you actually have made progression
2) Stop picking up test sheets, marks are objective. Give yourself a break and concentrate on what it felt like, what was better than last time, what you can work on now rather than a number which is arbitory
3) Set SMART targets. Aims that are Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic, Timely. Work out what you steps you need to take to reach those goals as small chunks are managable and won't overwhelm you.
4) Avoid 'The Drainers' those people who make you feel bad about a situation/performance/yourself. Spending time with them sucks the life from you.
 
Lolo said:
So, I spent 20 minutes trying to write something resembling that ^^ and gave up :D

But yeah. On a really basic note, your instructor is meant to be better than you. I mean, it's their job to ride and train horses- if they couldn't get on and do more than you, why would they be teaching you? I think you have to embrace that fact and almost enjoy it, and see it as what your horse will be doing with you once you've got more experience and hours of good practice.
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I was really thrilled with how great he looked with her on board. He always looks super when more experienced people ride him and I love seeing him like that. It wasn't that (I hope) that has gotten to me this weekend.

I think it's the realisation that I've been having lessons with this instructor for 5 months, have come on in leaps and bounds in that time, more than I ever thought capable of (me doing half pass?! :eek:). But the one thing that I can't get to grips with is how to ride the "different" Bill that only appears at shows. I'm letting Bill down, my instructor down, and myself down.

And that's just depressing!

So, I'm going to read up on sports psychology and I will NOT settle for still feeling like this in a couple of months.
 
muddy_grey said:
Like others have said your problem sounds like a lack of confidence not talent. I think hard work and the right horse are far more inportant than a bit of talent. We all feel that we are letting down our horses at some point or another, but as long as they are warm and fed they don't care. I don't have any transport and have had recent money trouble so my "Super SJ 4yo" is now a 6yo who has been to 3 shows, but she's happy.
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Agree.

My friend who happens to be at the very top of the tree in another animal related competitive past time said to me folk kept telling him he was "lucky" various things occurred for him when he was competing and he came up with the reply, "yep, the harder I work, the luckier I become". The same can be said for talent. To a degree of course it helps but you are clearly an accomplished rider so no, there is no ceiling, just got to work harder and harder to improve yourself and also most importantly to believe in yourself. :)

Andy Murray has improved a lot since he has got someone coaching his self belief ;)
 
BeckyD said:
I was really thrilled with how great he looked with her on board. He always looks super when more experienced people ride him and I love seeing him like that. It wasn't that (I hope) that has gotten to me this weekend.

I think it's the realisation that I've been having lessons with this instructor for 5 months, have come on in leaps and bounds in that time, more than I ever thought capable of (me doing half pass?! :eek:). But the one thing that I can't get to grips with is how to ride the "different" Bill that only appears at shows. I'm letting Bill down, my instructor down, and myself down.

And that's just depressing!

So, I'm going to read up on sports psychology and I will NOT settle for still feeling like this in a couple of months.
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You and Al would make a right pair... If you come across any helpful books/ resources beyond just continual, gradual improvement can you let me know?

She's got better recently, and I'm not sure where it's come from. But her attitude has gone from 'I'm not good enough' to 'I will be good enough'- part of me wonders if she's just come to terms with the idea of a journey rather than a final result? I'll ask her and see if I get a straight response! But since she's started being noticeably more positive, her riding has improved too and her results are getting better. Which feeds into a really positive loop...
 
Lolo said:
You and Al would make a right pair... If you come across any helpful books/ resources beyond just continual, gradual improvement can you let me know?

She's got better recently, and I'm not sure where it's come from. But her attitude has gone from 'I'm not good enough' to 'I will be good enough'- part of me wonders if she's just come to terms with the idea of a journey rather than a final result? I'll ask her and see if I get a straight response! But since she's started being noticeably more positive, her riding has improved too and her results are getting better. Which feeds into a really positive loop...
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Aha well hopefully she'll continue to make positive progress! I do love reading your reports about her progress. Her and Reg have come such a long way.

I think when you're as young as she is, it is harder to understand the journey. When I was a teenager I was more about instant results. Now I'm older I love the journey. (It's just nice sometimes if the journey involves a bit of competition success just to keep your spirits up :p)
 
Two things. . .

One, your comment about how much you still have to learn . ...you won't ever learn all there is about horses. Any of the great masters, people who have ridden thousands of horses and taught legions of lessons, will tell you that. Stop waiting for the day you will magically be perfect. It's not going to happen. And it's a very unfair thing to expect of a horse.

Two, that you are letting people down. Who says? Your instructor? I know who teaches you and I doubt that. There are people who are 'supported' by people who genuinely say things like that and if you are one of them, I am truly sorry. I have been in that situation, dependent on that person, and it is no fun. I also clearly remember the minute I realised I was never, ever going to be 'good enough'. It was actually a useful lesson. I think it was WFP who said that sometimes good enough is, well, enough. You can ALWAYS be better but that can be said for everyone and is not worth driving yourself crazy over.

If it is in your head that you are letting people down, then ask them. And believe them when they answer you - otherwise why care what they think??
 
Tarrsteps: my initial thought was well no of course I'll never know everything and that wasn't what I meant, but on further thought that concept is equally applicable to my somewhat smaller ambition of being able to ride a dressage test and be pleased with it. Although I have ridden tests in the past and been very pleased with them. Just not recently!! It's not as if I have this massive all-encompassing ambition to be great at everything. I'm simply fed up of not achieving the fairly basic level I'm aiming for ;) And its most definitely on my shoulders as Bill is more than capable at this level.

No there is no one around me who makes me feel that I'm letting them down and certainly neither instructor (one who you know and one who you may or may not know). Both instructors have been really inspiring and encouraging. It is me who feels that I want to live up to their faith in me and yet I can't quite seem to do it like I want to.

I'll stop thinking so negatively now and will get that book and really knuckle down with improving my mental attitude. After all, I get so much enjoyment out of every ride and it is only the competitive dressage that's causing me any disappointment.
 
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