Rescuers create horses that need rescued.

[Merrymoles]

Enforceable stallion licences - no licence, stallion confiscated and PTS. That might prevent some of the poor in-bred stock where colts are left running with the herd

 

[Goldenstar]

Let me tell you they may may have the responsibility but they do not have the inclination. Leicestershire Trading Standards have stated they will not check any horses for passports. We were hoping they could be used to sort out the situation at Fosse Park.

There are currently nearly 50 horses there - all burnt on the buttercups. 2 stallions running with the herds. Mares having bad foalings left for days to struggle. Injuries you wouldnt believe.

No passports, no veterinary attention, no one is bothered unless you can see them dying from the road. The vast majority of fatalities are in the field behind Police Headquarters !

Because the state have handed over the responsibility for dealing with animal welfare prosecutions to a charity who has the right to pick and choose what they do.
If the responsibility for dealing with rested firmly on the shoulders of the state they we the public would have a better chance of getting together and effecting change
But all this costs money and I fear there will never be a appetite for the increase cost to the tax payer .
There have of course been moves to make it easier for councils to remove and get rid of fly grazed horses and this is to be supported .

 

[WindyStacks]

I worry about the fields and fields of coloured cobs - and whilst no geneticist, I'm concerned by the rising numbers with blue eyes. It's all a ruddy great mess and I for one would rather they went to slaughter.

On that subject, it seems that not all abbatoirs are created equally. When I had my mare PTS I was living in the EU and it was very common for them to be taken directly to the abbatoir as they're very sensitive to ground contamination. We were asked to arrive first thing to a small, local abbatoir which only dealt with horses one day a week. When we arrived the place was being inspected by the ministry of agriculture and everything appeared to be running professionally. We chose to stay with her because of course you hear these horror stories of live transport and/or being re-sold and I needed to know it had been done. She was taken away to another section of the yard and put in a stable, front feet brought out and the job done. We left at that point because I had no desire to see how they were going to move her from there to the "factory".

 

[honetpot]

Enforceable stallion licences - no licence, stallion confiscated and PTS. That might prevent some of the poor in-bred stock where colts are left running with the herd

I think that would just create another rule for them to ignore, remember they pay no heed to the rules already there. Foals should have to be passported by 3 months not six and the fee should be collected by one body and the money used to fund inspections and enforcement. Stud books should be kept separate and the passport over stamped.

 

[Goldenstar]

Enforceable stallion licences - no licence, stallion confiscated and PTS. That might prevent some of the poor in-bred stock where colts are left running with the herd

This might work an entire with no chip that linked to a licence , remove it and PTS it would have to be quick and easy for the councils or DEFRA to do or it could cost a fortune .

 

[jofwigby]

Exactly - and I am no fan of them - but it does seem that if you try to do anything you are labeled as a "do-gooder".

The supporters of Fosse Park receive no support from the mainstream horse world. The majority of those people are un-horsey but have written to every Government and Council Dept, protested, rewritten the Petition after being advised that the previous wording was wrong - and still less than 1000 signatures.

Whether destined for meat or not, there should be zero tolerance on cruelty & neglect.

 

[Hetsmum]

Shils I find your personal attack (which it is albeit veiled) quite disgusting.

Goldenstar - you speak alot of sense and I agree with everything you have said. I agree it is a head versus heart thing.

Fides - I take my hat off to you. You have taken this with dignity. In your shoes I would have done the same thing - if that makes me a bad person so be it. I am not a fuffy bunny hugger but if I can make a difference to a life that I believe deserves a chance then so be it.

What gives the charities the right to 'rescue' but not an individual? If that is the argument then charities should only exist to PTS, particularly the horses requiring medical attention and lengthy rehab.

If anyone needs attacking it is the authorities. Stallions should be licenced, passports should be enforced and charities should not be left do the work that the government should be doing.

Also I have little doubt that many of these colts are shipped abroad (illegally) for the meat trade as WHW have proven which is not a fate anyone should be happy with.

I have said my piece and will participate no further

 

[Merrymoles]

I think that would just create another rule for them to ignore, remember they pay no heed to the rules already there. Foals should have to be passported by 3 months not six and the fee should be collected by one body and the money used to fund inspections and enforcement. Stud books should be kept separate and the passport over stamped.

I agree it would be ignored. The real point behind all this is that we have no enforceable horse-related legislation and I can't see it happening any time soon. General livestock is highly regulated in terms of welfare, movement etc, but horses fall through the net. Even if we went through the equine equivalent of foot and mouth, things would not change as too few people's actual livelihood would be affected.

It would be costly to police and probably lead to bad PR (of "the Tories killed my pony" variety). Without an overarching enforcement agency which is actually responsible for checking passports on all equines (not just well-cared-for pets) etc, nothing will change.

 

[cptrayes]

This might work an entire with no chip that linked to a licence , remove it and PTS it would have to be quick and easy for the councils or DEFRA to do or it could cost a fortune .

I wish it would, but a very well bred and 100% traceable gelding that I sold for a lot of money had no readable chip, and if he'd been entire I'd have been a bit annoyed if someone had shot him instead of giving me a cheque for him

 

[cptrayes]

Can the people who want 'the authorities' to sort this out tell me whether they will look the cancer patient in the eye and explain why you think a horse's life is worth saving more than theirs? There is not enough money in the whole economy to do it all.

 

[Goldenstar]

I wish it would, but a very well bred and 100% traceable gelding that I sold for a lot of money had no readable chip, and if he'd been entire I'd have been a bit annoyed if someone had shot him instead of giving me a cheque for him

The issue is in a nut shell is with all lets just sort it 'fixes' for this issue there would always be collateral damage people would have to embrace that .
Just like perfectly friendly nice dogs can PTS just because they are a certainly type .
That's not fair either .

 

[Goldenstar]

Can the people who want 'the authorities' to sort this out tell me whether they will look the cancer patient in the eye and explain why you think a horse's life is worth saving more than theirs? There is not enough money in the whole economy to do it all.

And again no politician in the real world is going to take these choices .

 

[Ladyinred]

With apologies to thos of you who have taken this tread and turned it into an interesting debate.

Shils, I really thought better of you than to make an unjustified personal attack on another poster.

All I will say on this nasty thread is that Fides may not have changed the world for horses but she sure as heck has changed the world for one charming little colt. Much powerand respect to her.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

What gives the charities the right to 'rescue' but not an individual? If that is the argument then charities should only exist to PTS, particularly the horses requiring medical attention and lengthy rehab.

What you say about charities only existing to PTS makes no sense at all. Charities do rescue. They educate, advise and if nothing improves they confiscate the animal and possibly prosecute the owner. Individuals don't *rescue* they *purchase* just like any other sale and then incorrectly call it a rescue.

 

[suestowford]

I've bought a horse because I felt sorry for him. It didn't make me feel like a white knight, or god, or anything like that, just relieved that he was no longer so hungry or sad.

 

[Spot On]

Ill probably sound hypocritical seen how we have a rescue however our rescue was bred by us and fell on very hard times and would have to fed to his dogs had we not rescued him. I would never take on any animal (other than mikey) where I person offers any ultimatum be it if you don't buy this horse he is going to the factory or if you don't buy this horse I have someone who will. These people are just playing on your emotions.

Here in Ireland we have too many of those coloured cobs and while yes they could make nice hacks or riding club animal. There is just not enough homes for them and every time one is bought off these people they just breed more.

 

[Shilasdair]

There are a lot of people here who fail to grasp the point.
One more try.
Q - 'Why is it ok for a charity to rescue but not for me to buy a poor emaciated pony to love?'
A - Because charities don't buy the rescues, they are more likely to be 'gifted' or confiscate them with police support. If you buy an emaciated horse, you are paying it's owner retrospectively for the abuse, and funding future abuses.

It's not rocket science - don't support people who don't look after their horses with cash, even if it makes you feel like a 'white knight'.

By all means, take anything you are gifted. Get one from a charity. Just don't incentivise the production with cash rewards.

And as for personal attacks: it's a free world and if I can't bring myself to speak to those of you who collude in cruelty, by buying thin and sick horses because you enjoy the 'white knight moment' more than you value horses' welfare - that's my choice.

S

 

[Goldenstar]

What you say about charities only existing to PTS makes no sense at all. Charities do rescue. They educate, advise and if nothing improves they confiscate the animal and possibly prosecute the owner. Individuals don't *rescue* they *purchase* just like any other sale and then incorrectly call it a rescue.

Some individuals do buy a cheap horse and call it a rescue .
But some individuals do rescue and I have seen been involved with it and salute those who do it
Charities certainly not the only way a horses gets rescued ,saved , gets it's situation changed whatever you want to label it as .
In fact all over the country every day people ,groups of people sort the issues of individual animals in need quietly and effectively sometimes someone involved with a charity is there at the edges as a facilitator often not .
This is the way it should be people done need the 'charities ' to do things if they have the inclination to solve problems then selves .

 

[Jesstickle]

Q - 'Why is it ok for a charity to rescue but not for me to buy a poor emaciated pony to love?'
A - Because charities don't buy the rescues, they are more likely to be 'gifted' or confiscate them with police support. If you buy an emaciated horse, you are paying it's owner retrospectively for the abuse, and funding future abuses.

It's not rocket science - don't support people who don't look after their horses with cash, even if it makes you feel like a 'white knight'.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Nettle123]

Taking the odd little colt and giving it an assured future will not make a damn bit of difference to these low end breeders, they will carry on as before anyway, its certainly not encouraging them. Fides had the means to take on an unwanted and had been refused by the charities, sometimes they are their own worst enemies.

I have no problem with horse slaughter in the UK for meat but those transported is another matter and surely that's what happens to the low end colts ?.

 

[Goldenstar]

There are a lot of people here who fail to grasp the point.
One more try.
Q - 'Why is it ok for a charity to rescue but not for me to buy a poor emaciated pony to love?'
A - Because charities don't buy the rescues, they are more likely to be 'gifted' or confiscate them with police support. If you buy an emaciated horse, you are paying it's owner retrospectively for the abuse, and funding future abuses.

It's not rocket science - don't support people who don't look after their horses with cash, even if it makes you feel like a 'white knight'.

By all means, take anything you are gifted. Get one from a charity. Just don't incentivise the production with cash rewards.

And as for personal attacks: it's a free world and if I can't bring myself to speak to those of you who collude in cruelty, by buying thin and sick horses because you enjoy the 'white knight moment' more than you value horses' welfare - that's my choice.

S

You have completely missed my point about a white knight moment it's not about buying a cheap horse the thing I am talking about Its much more visceral than that sort of thing .
I have never colluded in cruelty, take your choice go and live in your black and white world ,don't be interested in the views of others as you say it's your choice .
For me my time at the sharp end of all this and I have been at the sharp end right down there in it's underbelly it left me with more humility and insight into the human condition the good and the bad , ten years at it left me more cautious than I was at the start of condemning those who do things that I perhaps thought unwise .
It's complicated messy and deeply unpleasant but heaping blame on those who try perhaps misguidedly to help an individual animal is not the way forward IMO which even though it's not the same as yours I am entitled to have .

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

There are a lot of people here who fail to grasp the point.
One more try.
Q - 'Why is it ok for a charity to rescue but not for me to buy a poor emaciated pony to love?'
A - Because charities don't buy the rescues, they are more likely to be 'gifted' or confiscate them with police support. If you buy an emaciated horse, you are paying it's owner retrospectively for the abuse, and funding future abuses.

It's not rocket science - don't support people who don't look after their horses

Yup, agreed

Took out the white knight bit, as unnecessary really. Keep it succinct & to the point

 

[ester]

I think it is a conversation worth having.

I do struggle with the concept of badly conformed/lamed/unrideable youngsters taking up charity spaces long term as there is limited requirement for them as companions and others could benefit from being brought on by the charity staff and setting them up for life. But then I also feel that ponies such as carrot and spud deserved a few years of a nicer life too - and if they do why not something younger. I don't think paying to rescue is rescueing (and this is a bit of an issue I think PFK have had too because they do buy a few, if they paid too much everyone would make their horses look worse so they would buy them), buying something cheap because it is what you want means there is a market for it (you ) and it suits your needs.

 

[jofwigby]

Can the people who want 'the authorities' to sort this out tell me whether they will look the cancer patient in the eye and explain why you think a horse's life is worth saving more than theirs? There is not enough money in the whole economy to do it all.

Wow where did that come from ?

The animals I know are "owned" and their owner should be made to pay for any expenses incurred if anyone has to take over his "duty of care".

What is shameful is that there are Government & Council Depts that conveniently let the RSPCA take the lead, who choose what cases to prosecute.

If DEFRA and the RSPCA took the "meat pony" bull by the horns, they could work out how to deal with these people who look upon these animals as stock but with none of the regulation.

But they will never do this unless we make them ! The fall in donations especially here in Leicester is catastrophic - yet us here campaigning are told the "dogs and cats are suffering" because we have been highlighting the dead and dying horses.

I am sorry if you think that I would ever put the welfare of an animal before that of a person.

 

[ester]

But the money for the government and council departments in order for them to do this has to come from somewhere that is CPT's point - and all services need more atm.

 

[cobgoblin]

There are a lot of people here who fail to grasp the point.
One more try.
Q - 'Why is it ok for a charity to rescue but not for me to buy a poor emaciated pony to love?'
A - Because charities don't buy the rescues, they are more likely to be 'gifted' or confiscate them with police support. If you buy an emaciated horse, you are paying it's owner retrospectively for the abuse, and funding future abuses.

It's not rocket science - don't support people who don't look after their horses with cash, even if it makes you feel like a 'white knight'.

By all means, take anything you are gifted. Get one from a charity. Just don't incentivise the production with cash rewards.

And as for personal attacks: it's a free world and if I can't bring myself to speak to those of you who collude in cruelty, by buying thin and sick horses because you enjoy the 'white knight moment' more than you value horses' welfare - that's my choice.

S

Then I fail to see why you even started this thread, obviously you are right and everyone else's points of view are worthless. You do not even seem to have understood some of the points others are making. 'Grey areas' do not seem to exist in your little world.
Accusing others of colluding in cruelty, when plainly they do not,reflects more on yourself than on them.
If you cannot bring yourself to speak to such persons why on earth do you keep posting?

 

[cobgoblin]

Can the people who want 'the authorities' to sort this out tell me whether they will look the cancer patient in the eye and explain why you think a horse's life is worth saving more than theirs? There is not enough money in the whole economy to do it all.

This is already happening and has been for years, and is about to get a lot worse. Not due to the cost of horses though-rather more due to our massive human welfare bill!

 

[Goldenstar]

Only slightly tongue in cheek ,
We are all doomed .

 

[_GG_]

Fides...
I wouldn't have expected any less of you than to have posted such a well reasoned, open and honest response.

Shils - I agree 100% with what you have said on here, I don't think some of the comments about Oreo were really necessary though.

I haven't posted on Fides thread, not for any particular reason, just haven't got around to it yet as it's a thread I would like to read in its entirety before posting. I have read through the first few pages though and it does come across to me to be a thread aimed at discouragement rather than support for rescuing.

There is another side to this though, one which I don't think has been mentioned on here yet.

When breeders like this act the way they did when Fides was pulled in, there will be a meat man and that meat man will very rarely take all of the animals. Invariably, the ones that the meat man leaves behind are the ones that are in most need of experienced care and not the type that should be sold to inexperienced homes that very often don't have have the funds needed, let alone experience to deal with them correctly. So...these horses, IMO are better to be taken by someone like Fides, so, UNTIL we can find a way to confront the problem head on, I would actually support other experienced and solvent people buy these horses as the alternative for the breeder is to abandon and let them starve to death. They can't sell them, can't breed from them and won't spend any money feeding them, so they are destined for a very miserable end to life.

That would be a very short term plan and part of the plan would be to create a database of these breeders through the sharing of knowledge. With that information, what I would then like to see is culling through charity. Thereby, a charity set up, taking donations to cover the cost of the humane disposal of these "surplus" horses under authority. No money changing hands and it would mean a new law being passed which takes a long time. It would however create a situation where any breeder was given a limit to the number of horses that could be legally sold to the meat man and that any horses bread over that number were not allowed to be sold and would instead, be culled under the new law. It would allow the breeder a certain freedom to breed and sell for meat, but it would remove the ability to sell into the open market, where nobody can argue the pitfalls and risks to the horses in the majority of cases.

This, long term, would mean that people like Fides would be unable to buy such horses and that they would be killed humanely, which in itself, would create a huge backlash from the many many people who condemn any form of culling. It would create a huge backlash from the community at large. It's something I personally think needs to be done with dog breeders as well.

The only way to create support for something like this is to increase education. Encourage people to go out and do their own research. I haven't read all of the thread, but there was a poster at the beginning mentioning a video made by WHW of horse slaughter in an abattoir. If you only want to see one side of an argument, you will only ever have a one sided opinion and you will also never hold the truth. It is vitally important, when looking at anything in life, to do your own, independent research and not just form opinions based on the biased propaganda of others. The video mentioned wasn't good, but nor was it a true reflection of the industry. Horse slaughter is a necessary thing and videos like that should serve to assist improvement, not create hate.

It's very easy to say you have knowledge and experience by reading lots and looking at lots of videos but you have to remember that what you are reading and seeing is just another persons take on the truth, not the actual truth. If you really want to be able to stand and say you KNOW what you are talking about, you need to use your own feet to get to abattoirs and use your own eyes and ears to judge the system for yourself. Animals being killed is never pleasant, but it is certainly handled far far better than most people believe it is. I know that because I have been and seen it. I didn't enjoy it, but before I would send my pigs to slaughter, I damn well wanted to know the process and choose the best abattoir. Not one of the places I visited was anything less than professional with animal welfare paramount.

This thread has been a useful one for many that may come here with little knowledge. The problem with a little knowledge is that it can get you into a lot of trouble.

One day, when I have the time, I will look to develop a system to put to parliament for the improvement of welfare for dogs and horses in this country, but it is something I genuinely think I need to spend at least another 2 years researching before I can say that any ideas I have are going to work. At the moment, I just have ideas and they may well change significantly as my knowledge increases.

That's the thing with all of this. There is no quick fix, there is no magic wand, so, for the time being, whilst I hate the idea of lining the pockets of these breeders and it's not something I will do myself, I cannot chastise people like Fides for acting on their hearts. Individuals, taking individual horses/ponies usually create a low risk for the horses they buy. It is the individuals that set up their own "rescues" and buy up horses in larger numbers from breeders and sales that really need to be getting the sharp end of this debate stick. They are the ones who end up overstocked and in trouble, leaving horses to become real rescue cases.
It needs to be tackled one step at a time and I would begin by making it illegal to set up any form of rescue/charity/sanctuary without long and tedious set up processes and also make it illegal to accept any donations, monetary or otherwise for personally owned horses. Thereby, people like the lady from North Wales that set up her own rescue, as covered in the Daily Fail and took donations and gifts yet still allowed horses to suffer through overstocking, could be arrested and charged.

Obviously there are massive holes in everything I have said because if I were to type out in detail what my ideas are and why I have them, I would be here until Christmas, but my general point is that things really aren't always black and white and it's a very complex issue which IMO means that people like Fides are not always acting irresponsibly or creating more harm. Sometimes yes, always...no.

 

[_GG_]

This is already happening and has been for years, and is about to get a lot worse. Not due to the cost of horses though-rather more due to our massive human welfare bill!

True. It is an issue which needs tackling through private funding IMO.