Rescuers create horses that need rescued.

I haven't read ALL the threads, but there seem to be so many of these weird little coloured things around, and apart from the odd one or two frankly really are worth nothing as riding animals and need a bullet, poor things.

So why are there so many? There must be a market. My local gypsy family breed them, and in fact the stallion is a rather nice boy and they have the odd mare that is better than the average, but I wonder where all these foals go to.

I have a rescue as a companion, a mare in foal abandoned on some common land that someone has tamed enough for me to be able to catch, just about, and have feet and teeth done, but she is an ugly little thing with no redeeming features at all and wasn't worth breeding or putting in foal.
 
I'll go further than Shilasdair's excellent and opening post. Would most agree that our average farm livestock creatures, Beef animals, and Lambs, have a reasonable, humane and cared for life? Has anyone stopped to think and perhaps ask why we have so many equine welfare cases, when compared with those of farm livestock? Would others consider that if our horses had a final sale value, then they would be as well cared for as our farm livestock? Would others accept that if those who keep horses in the most dire of conditions, had what was considered to be an asset, then they would at least take greater care of it?

Can anyone explain to me (apart from the rather obvious differences), where the difference lays between our farm livestock and our equines? It seems to me that we care for one, but not the other. Kindness and cruelty are most often bed-fellowws, sadly.

None of the equine charities will support an ethical slaughter system for our equines, for the very simple reason that it will impinge upon their abilities to raise charitable funds. The equine charities, ALL OF THEM, should be ashamed in that they promote their charitable work, by having the evidence, horses in need of charitable euthanasia. If ALL of the equine charities were outlawed, we'd very soon return to a more ethical and humane system of equine management.

Alec.
 
3OldPonies said:
Shilasdair, if you'd get your foot out of your mouth for a moment, you would realise that your first paragraph above makes an assumption that you can't quantify. What I said was that I wouldn't have a tb over a cob or native because I have no experience in handling tbs. I did not say that I have no experience full stop or that cobs and natives are suitable for novices.

I don't have to justify myself, but am going to - one of my 'rescues' is a cob who came from a very well to do family that could be classed as 'all the gear and no idea'. He was cut late and is riggy, he thought he ruled the world and had no need for manners, he couldn't be led anywhere in hand, his feet were overgrown, he was wormy, hadn't been groomed for years so matted coat, mane and tail, ran away when ridden, was headshy, would try to have your head off with his feet if you got near his back end to sort his man cave out (after being cut late - I didn't blame him); now he is a lovely old softy in his thirties who is so laid back you wouldn't believe it - he never was a novices horse though - but that is what he started out as and why get got abandoned in a field with a mini shettie for company. By that time he'd been chucked off every livery yard in the vicinity and it was only the kindness of local residents who took feed to the pair of them that got them through the winter before I came along. I think it does qualify me slightly in knowing a little bit about re-habbing a rescue.
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You bought a rude cob from a 'well to do' background, and restored some discipline.
That's lovely, but it's not a rescue. I bought an ex orphan weanling, who had never had her feet trimmed, was underweight and needed worming. I couldn't catch her for about 2 weeks. :D. Also not a 'rescue', and my ability to care for her should be the expectation, not something to congratulate me on.

And you're proving my point re cobs - yours came from a decent background, but wasn't suitable for a novice.
S :)

ETA mine was a bit rough because the lady whose mare fostered her broke her collar bone and struggled for a month or two, nothing sinister.
 
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How about we just ban the use of the word "rescue", that would solve the problem in an instant. No one would be able to use it as an excuse anymore and instead could just post "I bought a pony/cob/foal etc for £50, what a bargain !"
 
Alec Swan said:
. If ALL of the equine charities were outlawed, we'd very soon return to a more ethical and humane system of equine management.

Alec.
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To be fair I have just looked at WHW

http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/Emerging-Horse-Crisis

and they do, in their PDF, talk about euthanasia of confiscated horses if no suitable home can be found.

No they aren't quite advocating taking them to Potters but they aren't saying they all have to be saved either...

ETS: and they aren't anti slaughter house, they want tighter regs in slaughter houses. If people choose to misinterpret that then the charity can hardly be blamed...
 
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Alec Swan said:
I'll go further than Shilasdair's excellent and opening post. Would most agree that our average farm livestock creatures, Beef animals, and Lambs, have a reasonable, humane and cared for life? Has anyone stopped to think and perhaps ask why we have so many equine welfare cases, when compared with those of farm livestock? Would others consider that if our horses had a final sale value, then they would be as well cared for as our farm livestock? Would others accept that if those who keep horses in the most dire of conditions, had what was considered to be an asset, then they would at least take greater care of it?

Can anyone explain to me (apart from the rather obvious differences), where the difference lays between our farm livestock and our equines? It seems to me that we care for one, but not the other. Kindness and cruelty are most often bed-fellowws, sadly.

None of the equine charities will support an ethical slaughter system for our equines, for the very simple reason that it will impinge upon their abilities to raise charitable funds. The equine charities, ALL OF THEM, should be ashamed in that they promote their charitable work, by having the evidence, horses in need of charitable euthanasia. If ALL of the equine charities were outlawed, we'd very soon return to a more ethical and humane system of equine management.

Alec.
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I think the big difference are farmers are out to make money and provide a good quality end product. No farmer worth their salt wants a poor animal, that has poor feet and creates vets bills and the food that is put into them has to create towards a carcass with a value. The farm animal food industry is very clear about how little food the farmer needs to use, where as with horses they encourage spending over common sense.
Every animal should not need to have a monetary value to have good welfare but that seems to be the main factor in their care or lack of it.
 
Shilasdair said:
You bought a rude cob from a 'well to do' background, and restored some discipline.
That's lovely, but it's not a rescue. I bought an ex orphan weanling, who had never had her feet trimmed, was underweight and needed worming. I couldn't catch her for about 2 weeks. :D. Also not a 'rescue', and my ability to care for her should be the expectation, not something to congratulate me on.

And you're proving my point re cobs - yours came from a decent background, but wasn't suitable for a novice.
S :)

ETA mine was a bit rough because the lady whose mare fostered her broke her collar bone and struggled for a month or two, nothing sinister.
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I think we're just going to have to disagree here, I call it a rescue, and remember I don't have to justify myself to you or anyone else, because they'd been left out all winter with no food other than kitchen scraps and the odd bit of garden rubbish, were getting no routine farrier or health care and would have been PTS in the spring because so many people had made complaints about them. Not only that the cob's history when investigated was that he originally came from a rather dodgy source as a supposedly novice ride suitable for a first timer when he'd actually been broken in pretty brutally and cut so late in order to be sold off at a better price than an unbroken stallion. If he'd not sold in the first place, the dodgy dealer was going to PTS as well. You don't know the whole story any more than I know the full story of your 'non-rescue'.

Also, I'm not asking to be congratulated, just pointing out, as I am having to do yet again because you don't seem to be able to comprehend what I was trying to get across, is that I wouldn't go down this route with a tb because I don't think I am experienced to handle a tb, whereas I do have experience with cobs and natives so that it what I would choose to re-home.
 
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A local girl to me took 25 of these coloured type ponies onto her land ( didnt buy came from the police) everybody asked why and what she thought she was doing. I honestly think in her head she could make money, they went up for £150 each and funny enough couldn't home any. In the end she found she couldn't even give them away. Our local rescue centre took the mares in foal and the rest went for meat. None in the time she owned them had any basic care just chucked in a field. Advert heading was " rescue ponies desperate for homes" when from £150 to free but still went for meat.
 
This is aimed at no particular person, but rather, I've noticed shades of it in a lot of the posts on this thread.

Please be careful not to be naive in your own beliefs when accusing others of naivety.

This is such a complex and grey issue, there is no easy fix, magic wand or correct answer. I keep seeing posts repeating the same condemnation but with few or no ideas being put forward for resolution.

I don't think anything that anyone has said in any post here is without merit....far from it, it's become a valuable thread...but it will lose its value if it descends into repetition.

There are some people, myself included that plan on actually doing something to try to improve things, so if anyone does have ideas, perhaps you could share them...it would be very much appreciated :)
 
_GG_ I think you have just told me off!

Anyway for what it's worth, I do think that charity subsidised euthanisia is a good idea. It may break the hearts of some owners, but it is a better end than being passed from pillar to post if someone finds themselves in dire straits and is unable even to fund the cost themselves. I also think that the charities need to be a little less stringent in their ideals for re-homing. We can't all have perfect yards, but if the knowledge, skill and good intention is there, then they should stop worrying so much about the minutae - perhaps a home visit and a knowledge 'test' before making a decision. That is not to say though they should go to the extremes of saying everyone must have passed a minimum of the BHS Stages exams! But that they know enough about day to day stable management to cope and that they have a vet and farrier lined up from the start.

As to the overbreeding by a certain element of the community, while they will defend their right to breed equines as they have done so for so many years, they need to be made to stop! Or at the very least cut down their production to sustainable levels. Sooner or later they are going to overwhelm not only those who can effect a rescue, the charities and the meat man and then the level of welfare troubles really will escalate out of control.

Also, I believe that the charities themselves need some kind of regulation to stop just anyone buying up some scrappy equines and setting themselves up. There's one not far from me, which is trying it's hardest, but they are of the sort that can't say no, and they're going to run out of room soon.
 
_GG_ your post in particular has spurred me into action - what can we do to help solve the problem? If anyone has any ideas please share them here

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?671282-Lets-create-a-solution

I am more than willing to give my time to support forming an organisation to help tackle the cause, rather than plugging a hole.

And people - please do not condemn Shils or anyone for disagreeing with what I have done with Oreo. It is something that I did in a moment of weakness and although I don't regret doing it when I see his little face, it doesn't actually help the plight of these horses in any way - just one.

So the question Shils is are you willing to help create a solution? If a group of us got together and set up an organisation with the aim of promoting PTS as a valid alternative to rehoming, would you want to be a part of it? Genuine question - I would love to have someone with your passion and conviction fighting from the same corner as me.

This also extends to _GG_, Alec and Pennyturner who also seemed to express similar views. Would you be willing to help set up a drive for this? It would be a long slog but could make a real impact. Anyone else?

ETA - offer extended to 3Oldponies too :)
 
(We are working on a local plan and one of our suggestions is that of the equivalent of the Baby Boxes - where animals can be given over anonymously if the owner cannot afford to PTS - offering a subsidised of sorts solution would mean that there would be no excuse for animals being abandoned / un-treated).
 
3OldPonies said:
_GG_ I think you have just told me off!

Anyway for what it's worth, I do think that charity subsidised euthanisia is a good idea. It may break the hearts of some owners, but it is a better end than being passed from pillar to post if someone finds themselves in dire straits and is unable even to fund the cost themselves. I also think that the charities need to be a little less stringent in their ideals for re-homing. We can't all have perfect yards, but if the knowledge, skill and good intention is there, then they should stop worrying so much about the minutae - perhaps a home visit and a knowledge 'test' before making a decision. That is not to say though they should go to the extremes of saying everyone must have passed a minimum of the BHS Stages exams! But that they know enough about day to day stable management to cope and that they have a vet and farrier lined up from the start.

As to the overbreeding by a certain element of the community, while they will defend their right to breed equines as they have done so for so many years, they need to be made to stop! Or at the very least cut down their production to sustainable levels. Sooner or later they are going to overwhelm not only those who can effect a rescue, the charities and the meat man and then the level of welfare troubles really will escalate out of control.

Also, I believe that the charities themselves need some kind of regulation to stop just anyone buying up some scrappy equines and setting themselves up. There's one not far from me, which is trying it's hardest, but they are of the sort that can't say no, and they're going to run out of room soon.
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Haha, definitely not telling anyone off...I'd quite rightly expect a slap for doing that. More just saying it's turning into a bit of a roundabout that's all :)

Fides said:
_GG_ your post in particular has spurred me into action - what can we do to help solve the problem? If anyone has any ideas please share them here

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?671282-Lets-create-a-solution

I am more than willing to give my time to support forming an organisation to help tackle the cause, rather than plugging a hole.

And people - please do not condemn Shils or anyone for disagreeing with what I have done with Oreo. It is something that I did in a moment of weakness and although I don't regret doing it when I see his little face, it doesn't actually help the plight of these horses in any way - just one.

So the question Shils is are you willing to help create a solution? If a group of us got together and set up an organisation with the aim of promoting PTS as a valid alternative to rehoming, would you want to be a part of it? Genuine question - I would love to have someone with your passion and conviction fighting from the same corner as me.

This also extends to _GG_, Alec and Pennyturner who also seemed to express similar views. Would you be willing to help set up a drive for this? It would be a long slog but could make a real impact. Anyone else?

ETA - offer extended to 3Oldponies too :)
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Yes, you'd have my help. I am about to be writing some more for a horsey magazine so will ask the editor if they would support an article discussing this in a future issue as well.
 
Fides, I would definitely want to be a part of an organisation that aims to provide solutions to this problem we have. Off to have a quick look at your thread :)
 
Shilasdair said:
Hi all
Please don't buy rescues, as you are creating the demand for them, which unscrupulous suppliers/dealers will profit from.

I understand that you do it with the best of intentions (and a certain feel good factor from posting about your good deeds, perhaps).

But think - the supplier is using your 'fuel' money or '£50 fee' to produce the next larger crop of neglected, ecto and endoparasite-ridden, malnourished and badly conformed equidae thanks to your help. You are colluding in equine misery. :(

If they are well cared for meat horses - let them go for meat. If they are not, report the owners to the police, BHS, WHW, Etc, and let action be taken against them to prevent a recurrence.

Please don't fund this.

S :)
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My welsh cob Goyallt Nico was a rescue, he is neither badly bred or has poor conformation, he is a very well bred registered welsh cob, who was bought by a person who just could not be bothered to look after him. He was full of worms, had a serious lice problem and was very thin. While i wouldnt buy just any old horse Nico is our second rescue, the first came in the same condition from Bodmin 30 yrs ago, and was eventually my youngest daughters first horse, Jimmy was a much loved friend, as Nico is now. Its not just the ones who are left to breed with anything that need rescuing you know!
 
Agree a solution is needed! PTS should be subsided and youngsters gelded .... Maybe a bill needs to be passed. Long road ahead!
 
Highlands said:
Agree a solution is needed! PTS should be subsided and youngsters gelded .... Maybe a bill needs to be passed. Long road ahead!
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Surely people who can't afford £150 to put a horse down or geld it should not own it in the first place? I would be really cross if irresponsible owners were rewarded by having gelding or euthanasia costs subsidised.

If you subsidised gelding these 'meat colts' you simply make breeding them more economically viable and more will be bred.
 
One thing that could be lobbied for is a license for Stallions and a similar tagging system for horses as for farm animals without the transport bit so every horse would need to have a microchip/freezemark without which it would be ceased and destroyed within 14 days. The responsible will comply the irresponsible will lose their stock
 
We all know its the irresponsible who dont give a **** who have created the problems. Its not that they cant afford passports/micro chipping/gelding they just think (and are right!) that they are above the law! In walking distance of my house i could show you three tethered cob stallions, there are also mares running free on the same bit of land. This is where there needs to be tough laws.
 
cptrayes said:
Surely people who can't afford £150 to put a horse down or geld it should not own it in the first place? I would be really cross if irresponsible owners were rewarded by having gelding or euthanasia costs subsidised.

If you subsidised gelding these 'meat colts' you simply make breeding them more economically viable and more will be bred.
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The problem is that it doesn't just cost £150 to put a horse down, you then have to factor in the removal costs as well - I paid £350 for removal of my horse that died. It isn't economically viable for these breeders to PTS the unwanted, hence them going for a pittance. As for gelding - I was paid £250 plus callout for an at home geld, it would have been £400 if at the vets. And if only one testicle descends and they have to wait till they are two you then need a geld and tie - more expense. And if you have a rig £1200-£1500 to remove.

There are huge costs involved in PTS and gelding. There has to be a better way?
 
cptrayes said:
It cost me exactly £150 to have a seventeen hand horse shot and removed in May this year.
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A lot of the fluffy bunnies won't have the horse shot. If you have the injection then the carcass can't be used for meat so disposal costs are higher.
 
Fides said:
A lot of the fluffy bunnies won't have the horse shot. If you have the injection then the carcass can't be used for meat so disposal costs are higher.
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It makes no difference. If you can't afford your chosen method of disposal of a horse you should not own one in the first place, imo.

My horse was shot, removed and incinerated for £150.
 
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Fides said:
The problem is that it doesn't just cost £150 to put a horse down, you then have to factor in the removal costs as well - I paid £350 for removal of my horse that died. It isn't economically viable for these breeders to PTS the unwanted, hence them going for a pittance. As for gelding - I was paid £250 plus callout for an at home geld, it would have been £400 if at the vets. And if only one testicle descends and they have to wait till they are two you then need a geld and tie - more expense. And if you have a rig £1200-£1500 to remove.

There are huge costs involved in PTS and gelding. There has to be a better way?
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Nothing stopping these breeders having the horses picked up and taken to slaughter that's not an expensive option .
There's no way I am parting with a penny to PTS a breeders crap while they sell the good ones let then dispose of their rubbish to an abattoir themselves .
Don't breed if you can't afford to geld .
Paying these costs won't stop these people breeding we need to make the infrastructure they use to keep ( better word would be store ) their horses very very difficult to use .
Strict fly grazing regulations .
Livery licensing including those offering grazing would be a start .
Compulsory stallion licences with draconian seizure and destruction powers for those not licensed and microchipped .
I am not going to hold my breath .
 
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