Returning a horse not fit for purpose

wakijaki said:
I would hope that given the seller buys and sells and breaks and trains horses for a living that she stands a much better chance than me to actually do some work with the horse before trying to sell her on again. The fact that this is the second horse i know about that this has happened with is another reason why i want some sort of recompence - if she is not made to see that she can't get away with selling horses without making buyers aware of problems and doing any training with the horses first - then there is nothing to stop her doing it again and for someone to get very seriously hurt by purchasing a 'quiet' horse that thinks its an extra in a rodeo!
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You are right, professionals should manage their business to protect not destroy their reputation, good luck. Do let us know how you get on.
 
smellsofhorse said:
I think this poor mare is miss understood.
She lived at a yard with lots of horse friends, she trkked out in a group and knew the routes.
She knew the staff and regular riders.

She probably was suitable for a novice and 100% in all ways.

Then shes gets taken a way, to a strange yard, with strange people and horses and asked to ride out alone.

She needs time to settle, get used to her new owner and home.
You need to be firm but fair.
Yes some horse do take a move like this in theor stide but often even the saints have to be forgiven a few issues.

So whether she is suiatable for a novice at the moment and whether you could send her back i dont know.
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Again - she misbehaved at the trekking center - was only used for a few months, bucked children off and was then turned out for 8 months while they tried to sell her on - in fact the seller said she wasn't happy there as it was too busy and she would be much more suited to a private home.
As i said i was willing to work with the horse with sme issues - i have spent hours with her gently overcoming her fear of being bridled. I have also spent hours with her working on picking her feet up. Other issues such as bolting, backing, spinning, napping and violently kicking out are not little issues and not ones i am prepared to deal with - if i was i would of taken on one of the free horses i was offered before buying this mare. Thanks
 
swampdonkey said:
Although I do really feel for you OP I do think that all the warnings were there and you either thought you could change the mare or didn't read between the lines.
I think I am right in saying that you were aware that the horse bucked as you were told she bucked in the school, if a horse uses bucking as a evading technique it will use it hacking, schooling or anywhere else it would be. If it bucks, it bucks!
I remember reading also that they told you she would hack alone with some persistence or similar wording, (can't find it now)
It is a shame for you and the horse but it sounds like they did tell you (although maybe not in so many words) that this horse could be difficult.
I hope you get this situation settled one way or another as this can be no fun for you or pony.
Maybe next time you are looking to buy you will listen out for the warnings that it sounds like the seller gave you.
Try not to hate your horse, as although I know she is making your life miserable its not her fault. If you feel angry or hateful towards her she WILL know, and therefore act accordingly.
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Warning signs? I have found out most of the information about this mare - after the purchase as the seller either lied or omitted the truth at the time of sale. 'told me but not in so many words' - i asked all the questions and got all the answers i needed - not once was i made aware of the fact that she would be almost impossible to ride either in company or alone, not once was i told she kicks and is difficult to tack up, dangerous to lead by hand and naps and spins and bolts and backs up and is dangerous to ride either in a field, out on the road or on the beach.
I do not hate her - im sorry if it comes across that way - i feel angry at the seller and let down and i feel frustrated by the mare and by my own lack of experience that i cannot over come these problems - but again - i wasn't aware of prepared for thes issues - if it was just a few small things then maybe i could work through them with help - bu tnot when you put all the issues together and match that up to the description that i was given. Thanks
 
BayLady said:
To add to the comments about the breed not being bad overall, my recently backed 4yo Haflinger x Welsh D is a total superstar and sweetheart. He is going to be a cracking allround in a couple of years. He'd be very easy to mess up though, he's sharp and sensitive and needs firm but fair and consistent handling. I'm lucky in that his last owner did a really nice job with his ground manners and the actual backing process, so he has no issues at all. As long as he understands your request, or has room to figure it out without being pressured, he'll move heaven and earth to give the right answer.

OP, it does sound like the horse wasn't truly represented to you, and as a result neither you or the horse are happy. I hope that you can get some recourse from the seller, but I suspect it won't be easy as the BHS helpline made it sound.

For what it's worth, when I went to buy my boy I had a typed list of questions to ask the seller, running to about 6 pages long! They covered everything from health (has had teeth done, what like for feet handling and trimming, vaccinations) to basic management (how kept, routine, is ok in stable with company and alone, live out all winter, feed), to ridden experience (when backed, how backed, what done under saddle, hack alone, in company) and anything else I could think of. I asked the seller every single questions, wrote down the answer and got them to sign the sheets at the end to verify that the answers were as given. I also had 2 people witness it. It might sound long winded but it covered my back and also reassured the seller that I was serious about the purchase. I also had a full vetting before buying. It might be worth considering something like this for when you next look. It's not always going to save you from bad sellers or buying the wrong horse, but it reduces the possibility.
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thanks and lovley to hear a postive haffy story! I know in the right hands they can be a brilliant loyal and verstatile breed and i wish you all the luck for the future with your boy.
Thats a great point about the list of questions - i have certainitly learnt from this experince and i know what to do next time, i also now have a great circle of horsey friends who, while they may not be able to help me with the mare, are more than willing to help me out with chosing another horse which is great as i don't drive so i was very limited about what i could go and see what i thought i saw something suitable.
 
MagicMelon said:
I cant imagine thats right that you can return a horse for a full refund within TWO YEARS?! Thats ridiculous!

Its a hard one because is she actually proven to be considered a dealer? Please dont assume that the horse is a total nutjob just because its been naughty with you,
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thats what the bhs said - although within the first 6 months you dont have to prove the horse behaves in the way you say - after the six months you would have to prove that the horse is different to how they described.
The term dealer refers to anyone who buys and sells horses in the course of their business and or trains and or rides horses as a business - she reguarly has horses up for sale - she currently has 4 on her website. She also takes in horses for breaking and training.
I understand every horse is different ant they can change in different enviroments - however so should the seller understand this also and given that she already had issues with the horse and has previoulsy been in the same situation this year with the other haffy she sold - its frustrating that she is fobbing me off by claiming i am making the issues up.
 
Flyermc said:
Ive read this thread through and i feel really sorry for the pony. You mention that a rehab place might take her, is this an option instead or returning her? I know you'd loose your money (im not rich either, £900 for me is a lot to loose) but im not sure i could return a horse to an uncertain future, its not her fault.

Could the rehab place swap her for a project thats ready for a new home?
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I cannot afford to lose the £900 really , not to mention i have probably spent £300 - £400 on upkeep and things for her in the meantime. The rescue center might take her in - however most of the horses they rehome would be similar to the mare so not suitable for me as i wouldnt want to end up the same situation again with a different horse.
As the seller trains and schools horses for her living then i would hope if she does take her back that she actually spends some time retraining her properly before rehoming her.
 
nich said:
Just want to add that while it may be common to have problems with ex trail or riding centre horses, it not the rule. I bought my first horse on a riding holiday in Northern Ireland, completely on impulse. She was one of only a few IDx or ish that they had among a lot of nose to tail cobs. I tried her in every scenario including a beach ride where I had to pull up from a fast canter due to nervous novices, EXCEPT riding alone. As a novice owner myself I wasn't even aware of napping. The people who sold her said she was too good for a riding school, but I stuck her in one on working livery for a year anyway. They loved her - she would go first or last, and was just as happy alone. I then took her out of the school, and in total had ten and a half wonderful years with her. She was just about perfect, my niece could ride her off the lead rein aged four, and I could do dressage, jump or hack. So please folks don't dismiss horses that started life in a trekking centre!
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yes i know some horses would be brilliant with this back ground - however from what i know in the past 4 years she was with novice owners who couldnt do a thing with her, went to a more experience home where the woman told me she bucked although would hack out fine, she also had issus with her being 'grumpy, mareish and difficult to handle' , then she was sold to trekking center- used for a few months, bucked children off and was turned out for 8 months while they tried to sell her - so its not as if she is trekking center trained - she was there for asuch a short time and obvioulsy didnt enjoy it
 
Highlands said:
It sounds like you have brought a very green pony, haffys are ultra clever and can take full advantage of this. You do not want this sort of challenge now and a first pony, no. If you only paid £900 then alarm bells would have sounded for me, ponies that do everything are normally expensive unless you are lucky!

With some firm handling then yes the situation could be reversed.

Two options

Keep and be prepared to work, get a decent instructor and send mare away with instructor for schooling

Sell

I think your seller may say its too late
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Again - according to legal advice i am covered by law to have refund of my money and also any costs incurred. £900 isnt a lot but i didn't want a pony that did everything as you said - i just wanted a quiet happy hacker. so in my area with current market - £900 is about right on the higher end of a happy hack pony.
 
DIESELSUPERSTAR said:
Some of you are so quick to judge. This owner is clearly in distress, has maybe been a little bit 'in the clouds' when buying but aren't we all?? ..i know I am!! And by the sounds of it whether the horse should be felt sorry for or not, at the moment she isn't safe to handle. Hafflingers are strong animals, beautiful, but any horse when it knows its strength is a danger to itself and anyone handling it. Iv no doubt that the owner could sort these problems... But why should she? Continue thinking of your children, do NOT put yourself in a dangerous situation. This horse needs some serious rehab from someone who has full confidence and experience with behavioural problems along with the time and money to go with. With regards to price????? My super sweet mare who is anyones dream to hack out and do most things with, and the most beautiful manners was up for £1000 and did not sell - the market at the moment is terrible and a price like that would be about right for a riding school horse. Persue getting your money back but unfortunetly you may have to come to terms with the fact that she may need to be sold on for a much smaller price, if not given away. We all make mistakes, don't feel alone and don't feel like you are failing the horse, I wish you all the best and hope it works out for both horse and owner!!! Xx
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thank you and also yes - everyone is saying £900 isnt a lot for a horse but again - i didnt want anything to do anything fancy with just hack safely so £900 is about right - i should also add that when she orgianlly started trying to sell the mare she was up for £1500 but i didnt know that til later.
If i have to come to terms with losing my money i will and i will ensure she gets the best home possible. thanks so much for backing me up. x
 
FrankieCob said:
second this! I tried to help a friend with a similar horse and it fractured my spine and put me in intensive care for 3 weeks with the prognosis that I'd struggle to walk in future. I can walk, but we are talking tens of thousands of pounds that I've lost already, and it will be a very long time before I'm fit to work full time again, and that will be at a much lower lever. I've been told I should NEVER ride again either :( And I didnt have kids! I'm an instructor and could have no way been considered a novice rider. Just something to bear in mind :)
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Frankie i am so sorry to hear of your accident. it just goes to show that it only takes a split second in which your life can be changed for you. Being around horses we all take risks as they are instinct driven animals but i have been around many horses where you know they would not try to hurt you and some lovley horses that also 'look after you' .
I had asked a much more experinced friend of mine to come round and get her ready and ride her for me and then she pulled out for the excat reasons you have stated - why should she put herself at risk? I would also never forgive myslef if one of my friends got hurt because of this mare as most of my friends have children and work to consider and wouldn't want to knowingly put them self at risk. x
 
Adopter said:
What a terrible experience for you, and yes your post reminds everyone that we should all remember that however much we want to love our horses their strength and basic flight nature always make riding and handling unpredictable, especially when problems arise.


OP do continue to do as BHS advise.

If you do unfortunately end up without the money to purchase a replacement, have a look on the welfare organisation sites for a long term adoption, you will get support and a pony who has undergone rehabilitation. I am on the Blue Cross Borrowers Facebook group and the ex rescues do achieve fantastic things. WHW and Redwings have super horses and ponies for loan too.
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Thank you that is good advice and if it comes to it i will look in to that
 
rhylis said:
I own a haflinger who also spent some time as a riding school pony, she was sacked for bad behaviour! After her stint in the riding school she went to a private home from where I eventually bought her. I remember her previous owner telling me that I would spend the first 3 months actively disliking the pony and wondering if I'd made a horrible mistake! She said that Tara would test me as much as she could in true haflinger fashion, I was very lucky because Tara's previous owner helped me with advice in the early stages. Tara can be nappy, bolshy and very bargy! She hates hacking alone and it took ages for her to form the same close bond to me that she had with her old owner. She's never going to be a straightforward pony, she has so much character and intelligence, but she's wonderful and I love her for it.
Your pony sounds very much like Tara but I think she's learnt many ways of evading things she dosent want to do. I would say from my experiences with my gorgeous haffy that you could overcome the worst of her behaviour but she may all ways be a strongly opinionated character inclined to test you out, not all ways in a naughty way but they certainly keep you on your toes. It depends if the end result of loads of hard work and frustration results in the type of horse you want anyway?
I wish you loads of luck whatever happens, don't give up whether you manage to return your haflinger and find something more suitable or if you give her another chance.
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Rightly or wrongly haffys do seem to get a lot of bad press. The lady next door to me who has a few horses also has a haffy that she has loaned out and she said he has very similar personality to my girl but without the bad habits, he is also known for bucking! The seller had two haffys for sale and the other one was returned to her for the same issues i am having and she was descibed as being the more friendly one out of the pair! After asking for advice and joining a haffy page on facebook i can see that even those who keep them would all agree - they need firm and experinced handling and are not really suitable for first time ovnwers. I wouldnt let this put me off the breed and i am in no means bad mouthing them - but at this time i am not looking for something that has so much character and that can be so strong willed as i am clearly finding out i am not up to the challenge!
 
Shysmum said:
"Sold as Seen" means just that, and I don't think you have any comeback against it.

I bought my last horse from a Trekking Centre, and suffered exactly what you are struggling with now. Plus rearing and plungeing - because he had never been ridden on his own. they would have taken him back, but I saw it a challenge in the end.

I had to REALLY get tough - the longest spurs I could find, a sharp stick, and hubs wit a lungeing whip behind. Bucket of water thrown from behind got him moving forwards (eek!) and if he tried to turn round, I made him either stand for ages, or go backwards. It took months for him to get the idea, and tho he was never that forward going, he turned into a wonderful horse, who I miss terribly after six years.
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Sorry to hear what you are currently going through, but sadly I do agree with " skysmum' "Sold as Seen" you may not have anything to fall back on and also its 6 weeks down the line which doesn't help in your favour. Hopefully you can fight against "False advertisement" and possible danger to harm as the horse is not 100% as you got mislead to believe.
I really hope that you get everything sorted and let us know what happens.
just to add would you be comfortable in taking her up on the free 2 week training? if so get her to include free transportation.
 
blue89 said:
Sorry to hear what you are currently going through, but sadly I do agree with " skysmum' "Sold as Seen" you may not have anything to fall back on and also its 6 weeks down the line which doesn't help in your favour. Hopefully you can fight against "False advertisement" and possible danger to harm as the horse is not 100% as you got mislead to believe.
I really hope that you get everything sorted and let us know what happens.
just to add would you be comfortable in taking her up on the free 2 week training? if so get her to include free transportation.
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thanks but in regaurds to 'sold as seen' i have taken this from a legal advice website
'Unfortunately it is a common misconception on the behalf of Professional Sellers that inserting the phrase “sold as seen” in a contract or receipt will protect them from any comeback for a physical defect, however, that is not correct for the Professional Seller. A 2002 amendment to the Sale of Goods Act has increased and made more practical the remedies available to Buyers. A Buyer may now reject goods (a horse) at any time during a two year period after sale, as long as he brings the defect to the Seller’s attention within 2 months of discovering it. Further, the law now says that if at any stage within 6 months of the sale, the horse does not (or no longer) ‘conforms’ with the contract, the horse will be treated as having not conformed at the time of sale and the Buyer can reject the horse or seek damages without having to demonstrate the lack of conformity. However, at any time after 6 months of the sale the Buyer will have to demonstrate the horse does not conform to the particulars of the contract.
Which is basically what the bhs legal advice was - with 6 months as long as i make the seller aware - which i have done since day 1 - I have the right to reject the horse and request a refund and i dont have to prove she is behaving in such a way. Her putting sold as seen on the receipt doesn't mean anything as long as the court would class her as a dealer - it all rests on that - if she was a private seller it would be a totally different matter. However because she acted under her business - that then also made me trust her a lot more than it would a private seller as i thought she would value her reputation and that of her business to not sell me a dangerous horse.
The offer of 2 weeks training was on the condition that i got the horse there and i assume bring the horse back - an 80 mile round trip when i don't even have a car - yet another expense then if i had to hire a horsebox for the day twice and i have no reason to trust that the woman would actually do any work with the mare or that this would make any difference to when she was returned to me.
 
wakijaki said:
thanks but in regaurds to 'sold as seen' i have taken this from a legal advice website
'Unfortunately it is a common misconception on the behalf of Professional Sellers that inserting the phrase “sold as seen” in a contract or receipt will protect them from any comeback for a physical defect, however, that is not correct for the Professional Seller. A 2002 amendment to the Sale of Goods Act has increased and made more practical the remedies available to Buyers. A Buyer may now reject goods (a horse) at any time during a two year period after sale, as long as he brings the defect to the Seller’s attention within 2 months of discovering it. Further, the law now says that if at any stage within 6 months of the sale, the horse does not (or no longer) ‘conforms’ with the contract, the horse will be treated as having not conformed at the time of sale and the Buyer can reject the horse or seek damages without having to demonstrate the lack of conformity. However, at any time after 6 months of the sale the Buyer will have to demonstrate the horse does not conform to the particulars of the contract.
Which is basically what the bhs legal advice was - with 6 months as long as i make the seller aware - which i have done since day 1 - I have the right to reject the horse and request a refund and i dont have to prove she is behaving in such a way. Her putting sold as seen on the receipt doesn't mean anything as long as the court would class her as a dealer - it all rests on that - if she was a private seller it would be a totally different matter. However because she acted under her business - that then also made me trust her a lot more than it would a private seller as i thought she would value her reputation and that of her business to not sell me a dangerous horse.
The offer of 2 weeks training was on the condition that i got the horse there and i assume bring the horse back - an 80 mile round trip when i don't even have a car - yet another expense then if i had to hire a horsebox for the day twice and i have no reason to trust that the woman would actually do any work with the mare or that this would make any difference to when she was returned to me.
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Wow you have defo done your research ( and I learnt something new lol ;) ) so I think you will have no problems getting this sorted, Good luck and keep us all updated. :)
 
I do not think its quite as clear cut as you think, OP. It isn't a car or a washing machine.

If, for arguments sake, you bought a horse and kept it stabled for a few weeks, fed it oats, got on as a novice rider and then took it out on a stormy day, no legislation would cover you for breaking your neck.

If the horse had an undisclosed veterinary condition or a vice, then you'd be covered. With behavioural issues, you'd have to argue that nothing you did or failed to do, didn't cause the horse's problem.
I know you have had experienced professionals give their opinion, so hopefully things will work out in yours and the horse's favour. Good luck with resolving this.
 
OP I really feel for you, know what it feels like to dread having to deal with your horse. You were sold what you were told was a safe, novice pony and that is what you should have got. Going by the legal advice you have been given, it would seem to me to be a fairly straightforward case since you have complained about the pony's behaviour from day 1.
Have you now formally rejected the pony? And what has been the dealers response to your rejection?
I wish you the best of luck and hope that it gets sorted soon.
 
Hi just wanted to add an update on this and say thank you to everyone who replied....
Well I still have the mare and although its been difficult and at times dangerous - we are slowly forming a great partnership and I actually love her to bits now!
I did try to send her back and was all set to take the seller to court under the sale of goods act to try to recover my money. I even took a 2 week break from the mare and just checked her over the fence everyday but didnt go near her while hoping that she seller would give in and come and collect her.
But two things happened - one was a very old friend of mine who I hadnt seen for 15 years has become a horse whisper of sorts and she offered to come out and work with Lolli, the mare. I agreed but by then i was so scared of her I said Im not going near her. Anyway she came out and spent a few hours with Lolli, getting her to come to her to be caught, getting her to move around and stand still, and also she got her tacked up by just taking her time with her.
She did say she had a terrible attitude and no respect and renamed her Pollard Pony after the little brittain character vicky pollard. However watching her work with her and that Lolli didnt hurt her or do anything bad gave me the courage to keep trying.
The other thing that happened was the flighty 2 year old filly was replaced with a quiet old gelding and the farmers daughter where she is kept moved back from norway and she has dealt with lots of these problems with her own horse so she has been on hand to help and guide me through the problems.
Im not saying its been easy and even this week i thought omg i would just love to have a normal horse! But i can now tack her up without her being tied up, mount her without her moving anywhere. Riding and the napping is still a major issue but yesterday we hacked out with friends to the beach and at one point she took the lead through the woods without being asked and we even had a canter on the beach without any bucking.
She still has moments where she says NO and she still turns fast as lightening and bolts off and bucks but these moments are rare. Im trying to keep her as soft and natural as possible, she is currently barefoot on the back and we ride bitless in the field. The aim is to get her completely bitless and barefoot and i think with our friends help we can do that.
I do a lot of groundwork with her and also lead her out in hand if we have no one to ride out with. I think she is beginning to realise that im not going to get mad at her or hurt her but i will ask her to do stuff for me and she needs to do it. I have learnt so much from her and she is actually a very loving pony under the Pollard attitude!
Im pleased to say we have had a happy outcome and i hope that with more work and trust building that the riding will get easier as my goal is to be able to safely ride her out just the two of us :-) xx
 
That's bl**dy brilliant OP! Great to read that you stuck with her and she's improved so much in a couple of months - just think what she'll be like this time next year:-)
 
What an interesting update and result. Well done, you give us a really good example of how to achieve a result through time, patience and good handling.

Glad to read you have people around to support you, and help your confidence.

Do keep us updated and I hope things go on improving, being able to ride on the beach sounds lovely.
 
WOW. Complete and utter respect to you for keeping going with this horse. Great that you have such support around you, this update has made me cry, what a fantastic item to read to start the day!!! Thanks for the update, onward and upward OP!!!
 
Well done OP. Sounds like you are getting there now. I really admire you for not giving up as it is so hard when you are actually frightened of the horse.
 
wakijaki said:
Hi just wanted to add an update on this and say thank you to everyone who replied....
Well I still have the mare and although its been difficult and at times dangerous - we are slowly forming a great partnership and I actually love her to bits now!
I did try to send her back and was all set to take the seller to court under the sale of goods act to try to recover my money. I even took a 2 week break from the mare and just checked her over the fence everyday but didnt go near her while hoping that she seller would give in and come and collect her.
But two things happened - one was a very old friend of mine who I hadnt seen for 15 years has become a horse whisper of sorts and she offered to come out and work with Lolli, the mare. I agreed but by then i was so scared of her I said Im not going near her. Anyway she came out and spent a few hours with Lolli, getting her to come to her to be caught, getting her to move around and stand still, and also she got her tacked up by just taking her time with her.
She did say she had a terrible attitude and no respect and renamed her Pollard Pony after the little brittain character vicky pollard. However watching her work with her and that Lolli didnt hurt her or do anything bad gave me the courage to keep trying.
The other thing that happened was the flighty 2 year old filly was replaced with a quiet old gelding and the farmers daughter where she is kept moved back from norway and she has dealt with lots of these problems with her own horse so she has been on hand to help and guide me through the problems.
Im not saying its been easy and even this week i thought omg i would just love to have a normal horse! But i can now tack her up without her being tied up, mount her without her moving anywhere. Riding and the napping is still a major issue but yesterday we hacked out with friends to the beach and at one point she took the lead through the woods without being asked and we even had a canter on the beach without any bucking.
She still has moments where she says NO and she still turns fast as lightening and bolts off and bucks but these moments are rare. Im trying to keep her as soft and natural as possible, she is currently barefoot on the back and we ride bitless in the field. The aim is to get her completely bitless and barefoot and i think with our friends help we can do that.
I do a lot of groundwork with her and also lead her out in hand if we have no one to ride out with. I think she is beginning to realise that im not going to get mad at her or hurt her but i will ask her to do stuff for me and she needs to do it. I have learnt so much from her and she is actually a very loving pony under the Pollard attitude!
Im pleased to say we have had a happy outcome and i hope that with more work and trust building that the riding will get easier as my goal is to be able to safely ride her out just the two of us :-) xx
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fantastic well done you! To add to your au naturel endeavours, I've just gone treeless with my occasionally spooky broncer and first tide out she was fab, shoulder no longer blocked which I believe causes her 'episodes' just a thought!
 
What a fantastic update, it made me smile reading this. I'm sure you will go on to have a great relationship as you are both beginning to understand and trust each other. Wishing you years of happy horsey times together.
 
So happy for you its great to hear your making great progress you should be very proud of yourself, before I read your update I was going to recommend Blazing Saddles they take on horses with all sorts of issues, someone I know sent a horse to them for about a month and she came back a different horse, sounds like you are doing fine on your own good luck x
 
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