Returning a horse not fit for purpose

It's not often I offer advice (being a relatively novice owner myself) however I can relate to some of what you say.

When we bought our pony, Dolly, we were told she'd been a riding school pony, and worked at an RDA centre. Safe as houses!!!

She had a riding school mentality, in that when asked to ride alone, she would nap terribly. Plant to start with, and then bomb off extremely fast if you got past the "plant" bit!

In company (eg riding lessons - where you'd think she'd be ok!) she would nap to the other ponies or to the gate. Usually very fast, with young rider sometimes staying on after the sudden brakes were applied, and sometimes not.

She was a witch to tack up, and very bitey. Especially to us new owners. Couldn't even get the headcollar on ourselves for a while.

You can mull things over for ever, or take it down to two choices. Black and White.

Move on, or fix it.

If you're looking for an easy fun ride (not hard work), you should pursue the sale of good act road (which I know is what you're referring to by "not fit for purpose" - and I agree you most likely have a very good case to pursue this - especially with the appropriate legal support and advice.)

If you're looking for a project (which you sound more than capable of dealing with, with the appropriate support) then keep it, work on it and, no doubt, fix it.

We fixed ours, with the help and support of lots of professionals. But it took about 2 years.

I think it all depends on your personal circumstances, and only you know if you have the time, patience, money and inclination to "fix" this pony.

Would be nice if you could, because pony would probably love you forever once it came to trust you (apologies for "it" can't remember if your pony is a mare or a gelding!).

But equally a "bad" pony costs as much to keep as a "good" one doesn't it. Wise words I was told, but I didn't listen to them lol!!!

Good luck in whatever you decide.

xxx
 
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as cost seems to be a consideration please reflect carefully at each stage the costs you are incurring in persueing any action you take the small claims court is not expensive and you may be able to persue the case yourself .
I am not sure want the sold as seen on the reciept will do to your case that's one of the main things you need to understand .
I hope the legal helpline at the BHS can help you let us know how you get on if you have time.
 
Thanks the problem is I haven't got the support unless I pay for it and paying someone £20 plus an hour when I work part time at minimum wage on top of all the other costs is just not an option. I do have horsey friends but already today I have been let down as a friend said she would come and ride her for me and now she can't til later on in the week maybe. The problem is everyone is too busy with their own work, families and horses to be able to spare the time this would need and in the meantime everything I go near her I'm worried about getting hurt.
Yes horses cost money and I can afford to keep her and look after her but the amount of work and time she is going to need just so I can ride her and handle her when I was promised an easy pony and she was fully aware this would be my first since I was a child.
My friend and I rode her in the field yesterday and once you can get her moving she is just impossible to steer as she tries to bomb off to the gate, just trying to get her to go round the outside of the field in a straight line was out of the question as she went across sideways to the gate. If you ask her to trot you really have to push and push and then she just stops dead so you almost come off and all the time if you tell her off she threatens to buck. I'm too scared now to ask her to canter as if I have no control in walk or trot and no brakes or steering then it would just be dangerous . I'm also now too scared to ride her on my own anyway as I have almost come off several times with the bucking backing and spinning and worry that something will happen and no one will know I'm hurt.
If the old seller really believes there are no problems with her and she is such a good horse trainer then why is she so reluctant to have her back? If she couldn't train her there for 14 months then I have no hope.
 
at the risk of getting jumped on I have 2 suggestions, firstly contack the Haflinger soc to see if anyone close to you with one of this breed already can offer any help or suggestions and secondly sounds like a candidate for Parelli. There is no shame in not riding her atm when its not safe to do so. look for help in sorting out respect and ground work issues first.
 
deeplydippy said:
at the risk of getting jumped on I have 2 suggestions, firstly contack the Haflinger soc to see if anyone close to you with one of this breed already can offer any help or suggestions and secondly sounds like a candidate for Parelli. There is no shame in not riding her atm when its not safe to do so. look for help in sorting out respect and ground work issues first.
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With the greatest respect, the OP bought a pony with one intention - to enjoy it. The pony was sold as safe, it has proven itself not to be, surely there is a case for misrepresentation.

Haflingers need a handler that is prepared to be more dominate than the breed is.
 
Get her in a strong bit - i had to use a mullen mouth pelham with chain. Try ebay ?
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I'm a bit confused as to what this is supposed to do to help an already nappy horse.



OP, what you have essentially is a horse that has no experience of life. Being hacked out in a group doesn't really take much education on the part of the owner, they're programmed to go with the herd and find it relatively easy. The bucking could be due to any number of things, but I would guess that the mare has no idea what's being asked of her and gets upset/angry when put to work doing something she doesn't understand. She sounds a bit like my 4yr old who was backed late last year and has only ever hacked in company. He is perfect to hack as long as he has someone to follow, but doing it alone frightens him. It's not a problem for me as I knew that when I bought him and we're working on it, along with basic schooling and confidence building. If it's not what you signed up for when buying though, that's a whole different thing.

Haflingers aren't easy horses and I'd never recommend them as first horses. Your problem is that you've got one that's been spoilt by lack of education and seemingly poor handling also (the barging, etc). It's not impossible to retrain her but it will take time, energy and if you're not experienced enough to do it alone, it will also take money.

In theory you do have a case to return her to the trekking centre as mis-sold and not fit for purpose, but I doubt that they're going to just accept her back when you ask. You'll need to have copies of the advert you bought her from, plus any other evidence of mis-selling (email conversations, witnesses to your viewing if possible, that sort of thing). I'd take those to the trading standards office and see if they'll approach the seller on your behalf. If that fails, you could try small claims court but again that will be time consuming and stressful.

The only other alternative is for you to sell her on to someone with the experience and time to bring her on. Sell her with full disclosure to safeguard yourself. Unless you got her for a song in the first place this will likely leave you out of pocket though, as she won't be worth a huge amount as a retraining project.

Funnily enough, when I was horse hunting for my chap (who's a Haflinger x Welsh D and is the most beautifully mannered pony you could wish for, despite everyone warning me against his breeding), I came across several Haflingers being sold with similar background stories to yours. It seems to be quite common for them to be sold as suitable for children or beginners when in fact few are.
 
The old owner not wanting the pony back may not be suspicious - it coyld be that they used the money to settle bills or coukd be that they think you are making a fuss

Since they are a riding school of sorts why not ask if they can come and see things for themselves or offer you some lessons there?

One of mine was a gem with his last owners and a nightmare with me - they were so surprised that unless thet had visited and saw ut they wouldnt have believed it

Good advice from Redmone above who has been through this
 
I bought my gelding from a riding centre/trekking centre. Its always hard when a horse moves to a new home, some act in a way thats completely contrary to their usual nature but they are not robots. The move from a 60 strong yard when he was mostly living out and dragged in on a work day to stand nose to tail with twenty others in a cattle shipping to a yard of six was a massive culture shock for him. He drew his confidence from me and its been eight months and wil hack out alone now although he still calls sometimes. A nervous rider just would have fuelled his worries and stress. They take time to adjust, she isnt a monster just upset its a shame because she's probably a lovely girl under her stress. I do hope you get sorted its not nice to get a horse home that balks at the move but they are not robots they think and feel and get attached to their friends and thrive on their routine.
 
Shysmum said:
Get her in a strong bit - i had to use a mullen mouth pelham with chain. Try ebay ?
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Why would you put a strong bit on a badly trained horse that's going not forward .
The first thing this needs to learn is to obey the driving forward aids actually no the first thing it needs to learn is respect totally people space and commands on the ground.
 
Just to say Haflingers are cobs and lots are bred from driving lines or even for meat and not given proper one to one handling from day 1 or not asked to do stuff like hacking alone. Then they are sold to kids or private homes and they buy them cos they look pretty or cos they behave well in the current environment.

Haflingers are wonderful horses but if at all possible but them as unbroken youngsters, ideally GB reg ones as continental ones can have other breeds mixed in sometimes and can still be registered) and educate them yourself. That way you are guaranteed to get a true Haflinger, a clever, kind, beautiful horse who will be (as mine is) your horse of a lifetime.

OP I think since you have clearly bought the pony from a business, and it is not as described then they (altho it doesn't help) will be ultimately unable to hide behind a sold as seen label, a bit like shops cant get rid of your rights to return stuff simply by having a 'policy' of not accepting them.

I would go down that route. I don't think altho not a novice you have the will to see it through in addressing the issues, so it would be better to pursue return of the pony.
 
OP I really do feel for you - you cannot do what you wanted to do with this pony.

Ultimately it comes down to do you like her enough to put in the work that it will take for her to be the pony of your dreams?

There are things that you can do - without it costing you money - that will help to turn the pony around. You need to be her lead mare and you need to come to an understanding with her.

In your situation I would probably decide to keep, I'd take her back to basics, take her out for walks, long rein her and re-train her to work on her own. There are lots of books out there that can help - I'm thinking Perfect Manners could be a good starting point.

If you don't like her enough to want to do that though then you need to get the ball rolling to get your money back as soon as possible as the longer you keep her the easier it will be for the people who you bought her from to say that you have caused this behaviour and that she wasn't like that before she came to you.
 
wakijaki said:
I bought a haflinger mare 6 weeks ago from a trekking center. She was described as quiet to ride and 100% in all ways. I went to view and ride her and she was fine although they tacked her up for me and we hacked out and she followed behind almost the whole time. The seller assured me she would be a great first pony as I explained I was coming back after a long break and wanted something quiet and safe to have fun hacks and beach rides with.
She has been difficult to handle from day one. Bolshy bargey throwing her weight around. Naps very badly and I'm unable to ride her alone as she won't go and then tries spinning backing up and bolting for the gate home. She has also bucked with me in the field and also on the road and also while I have been leading her. I tried lunging her once and she kept charging for me and spinning and bucking inwards at me.
The seller did say she would buck in the school as she was easily bored.
Have been in touch with the seller several times over the 6 weeks saying I wasn't happy and she was being a nightmare and dangerous to handle. She offered to have her back for two weeks training free of charge if I took her there... An 80 mile round trip... but has refused to accept there are these problems or to take her back for a refund.
It's got to the point now where I'm scared of getting hurt around her and am a bag of nerves getting on her even in company. She happily hacks in company as long as she is behind.
Should day I have had her checked all over... Back tack feet teeth and all are fine. Back lady said she had very bad behaviour issues and wanted to fight first. She has been difficult for everyone to handle not just me. Every day everything is just a big fight with her. I have tried being soft and gentle and have tried being firm and strict... Either way she reacts the same.
Where do I stand about getting her sent back legally? Receipt says sold as seen but I have copies of the adverts where she claims she is quiet and 100%... She is anything but.
Thanks
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I am really sorry its all gone wrong for you. I hate to say but you should really have got a full five stage vetting with bloods. She may have been doped or given pain killers when you tried her and had you had the bloods taken and she had reacted badly once home the vets would have sent them off to the lab for you so they could see if the mare had been given any drugs.

Just for future reference you should always see a prospective horse caught in the field, tacked up in the stable and ridden by the owner before you get on. You say back teeth, etc all checked. Checked by whom? Are they professional people or fellow liveries?

I think maybe you should get a registered physio to have a look at her to see if there are any physical issues and go from there. You might like to consider this one who comes highly recommended and is Midlands based. http://gemmakeyvetphysio.com/

She sounds like she is in pain and reacting in this way because it hurts. Or it could be that she is used to a high level of work and needs this amount to keep sane and it may be that you are not working her hard enough.

Have you had anyone else ride her who is more experienced than yourself? How did they get on?
 
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OrangePepper said:
The fact you told the treking centre what you wanted and they have sold you a horse that is 'Not fit for Purpose' means that under current consumer law you can return the horse and claim not only a full refund but any additional expenses incurred in keeping the horse after the date you rejected it. If you are Gold member of the BHS then you can ask for free legal advice, alternatively Citizen Advice may be able to assist you or contact a specialist equine solicitor.
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Haven't read through everything yet, but I'm not sure how "not fit for purpose" works when you're talking about a living, breathing creature that has it's own mind unless it's an undisclosed medical condition. It's a bit like ads where they state the horse is 100% bombproof or never bucks/rears/bolts etc. it's a horse, there is no possible way you can guarantee their behaviour 100% of the time.

Also surely buying sold as seen means you have no comeback in such situations or do CAB/trading standards/BHS view this differently? Genuinely interested to know what others think on this one as it seems such a grey area.
 
She sounds a lot like my first pony who came from a trekking centre via a riding school. My dad, who knew nothing of horses bought him for me because I said I liked him, though I hadn't the experience at the time to know what he'd be like as I'd only ever ridden in a riding school. I was 13 at the time. He'd obviously never been schooled or ridden alone before but fortunately I was just glad to have him and was as pig headed as he was. I used to set myself a target of how far I was going to get up the track and try and make it a bit further each day. He would stop, squeal, spin and gallop home and then we'd start again. Sometimes my friends would drag him or follow with a lunge whip. Eventually we started to win and after 6 months I could do anything with him and rode him every second I wasn't at school. I learned more from that pony than I did from any riding school or any other I've had since.
 
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Have been on the phone to bhs this morning and they said that as the seller would be classed as a dealer as she has other horses up for sale in the course of her business then I'm protected under sale of goods act 1979 and within my rights to reject the horse and seek a refund within 2 years... For the first 6 months I don't have to prove the bad behaviour myself.
She recommended that I contact the seller by registered post and formally reject the horse and in the meantime to say I will take reasonable care of its day to day needs and give the seller 7 to 14 days to collect and give back my money. Other than that I can take her to small claims court and also ask back for any expense I have incurred since day one.
So this Is what I am going to do.
I'm fully aware that horses change in different environments and that she isn't a robot but I also would never have bought the horse if I thought she would be so dangerous to handle.
I was offered project horses free so there's no way I would of spent £900 on a project.
 
have you asked the seller if they will take the pony back?

afaik the 'sold as seen' receipt does not stand for anything legally but not fit for purpose would stand. You need to get some legal advice though really OP, though that might depend on how much the pony was initially as to what outlay it is worth as opposed to reselling.

eta just seen the update, good luck.
 
Sorry, only just caught up with this thread. I think you've done the right thing, as much as you can't guarantee their behaviour, it sound like she has issues and isn't suitable, hope they take her back and you can get something more suitable that you can enjoy. Keep us posted. x
 
Well good luck! Doubt it's going to be as easy as you think to win your case but heyho. I would hardly class what your pony is doing as dangerous though. It's a pony ... heck it's a Haflinger! They're reknowed for being like this as they are working ponies, not patty ponies and most really aren't suitable for beginners like you. I suspect, if you go back down the route of buying another horse you may well have just as many problems unfortunately as horses (and particularly ponies) are usually very quick indeed at sussing out their handlers. And a final thing, to buy a TRUE beginner horse, you might want to up your budget considerably, £900 isn't the going rate for a perfect first horse.
 
wakijaki said:
Have been on the phone to bhs this morning and they said that as the seller would be classed as a dealer as she has other horses up for sale in the course of her business then I'm protected under sale of goods act 1979 and within my rights to reject the horse and seek a refund within 2 years... For the first 6 months I don't have to prove the bad behaviour myself.
She recommended that I contact the seller by registered post and formally reject the horse and in the meantime to say I will take reasonable care of its day to day needs and give the seller 7 to 14 days to collect and give back my money. Other than that I can take her to small claims court and also ask back for any expense I have incurred since day one.
So this Is what I am going to do.
I'm fully aware that horses change in different environments and that she isn't a robot but I also would never have bought the horse if I thought she would be so dangerous to handle.
I was offered project horses free so there's no way I would of spent £900 on a project.
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Good heavens. If this is true, then selling a horse could be a nightmare. This isn't aimed at you, but any buyer can ruin a horse and send it back without any recourse.
I can't quite believe its as straight forward as that.
 
Spring Feather said:
Well good luck! Doubt it's going to be as easy as you think to win your case but heyho. I would hardly class what your pony is doing as dangerous though. It's a pony ... heck it's a Haflinger! They're reknowed for being like this as they are working ponies, not patty ponies and most really aren't suitable for beginners like you. I suspect, if you go back down the route of buying another horse you may well have just as many problems unfortunately as horses (and particularly ponies) are usually very quick indeed at sussing out their handlers. And a final thing, to buy a TRUE beginner horse, you might want to up your budget considerably, £900 isn't the going rate for a perfect first horse.
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I had no idea that Haflinger's were renowned for being difficult and I've been around horses all my life.

I also can't see why the OP should have any problems with a horse that is bought out of the 'right' environment.

The OP hasn't ended up with the horse she thought she'd purchased. Plain and simple. And she has a right to send it back.

So how about stopping with the condescension? I think we're all well aware by now that absolutely nothing phases you, and there is no situation that you've not been in and come out of the other side successfully. Unfortunately not everyone can be quite so lucky or experienced.
 
dogatemysalad said:
Good heavens. If this is true, then selling a horse could be a nightmare. This isn't aimed at you, but any buyer can ruin a horse and send it back without any recourse.
I can't quite believe its as straight forward as that.
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I think mostly you require witnesses/info that either knew the horse prior to sale and would say it was not as described by the seller, or that saw it very soon after purchase- such as your instructor- and testify it was not as described.
 
Playing devils advocate, what if the seller didn't actually know about the not hacking alone? It's a trekking centre, it's not unreasonable that they'd have never tried to take the mare out on her own. That's not misrepresentation, it's lack of knowledge. Unless the buyer specifically asked "does this horse hack safely alone", I don't think there's a huge amount of comeback to be had. And even if the buyer did ask this, without a witness or something in writing it's very much he said, she said, which doesn't count for all that much in a court of law.

Also, there is a certain amount of buyer beware in any purchase of this type. I wouldn't take anyone's say so as evidence of the horse being able to do something, I'd want to check it myself and if that meant trying the horse more than once, so be it.

And finally, and this is by the by but it may have some bearing in terms of the buyers expectations, £900 is the budget for a project horse, whether it's a youngster to bring on or an older horse that needs retraining. Even in this market.

I'm not saying that the OP isn't right to want to seek some sort of redress, as the horse obviously isn't what she was looking for and not fully as advertised, but there's likely to be a lot more to proving this in small claims court than just "the ad said x and the horse does y".
 
There's no way £900 buys the perfect hack alone horse for a novice round here .
My perfect school mistress who gentle and sweet went for the same price as a good young event horse.
Such horses are always in demand .
I am not saying you can't find one for £1000 but you will have to work at it.
Hopefully the letter will be enough to make the the dealer take the horse back if then its off to the small claims court and see what the magistrates say.
Good luck OP I hope it's over with quickly and you can move on.
 
Goldenstar said:
There's no way £900 buys the perfect hack alone horse for a novice round here .
My perfect school mistress who gentle and sweet went for the same price as a good young event horse.
Such horses are always in demand .
I am not saying you can't find one for £1000 but you will have to work at it.
Hopefully the letter will be enough to make the the dealer take the horse back if then its off to the small claims court and see what the magistrates say.
Good luck OP I hope it's over with quickly and you can move on.
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I completely agree. However, regardless of the price, if the horse was not as described it doesn't matter whether the horse was £900 or £9,000.

But granted - yes, I think most of us would be looking to pay significantly more. Not that it's relevant in this situation.
 
amymay said:
I had no idea that Haflinger's were renowned for being difficult and I've been around horses all my life.

I also can't see why the OP should have any problems with a horse that is bought out of the 'right' environment.

The OP hasn't ended up with the horse she thought she'd purchased. Plain and simple. And she has a right to send it back.

So how about stopping with the condescension? I think we're all well aware by now that absolutely nothing phases you, and there is no situation that you've not been in and come out of the other side successfully. Unfortunately not everyone can be quite so lucky or experienced.
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Usually I agree with you, but in this instance, I don't.

If every new horse owner sent back a horse that didn't immediately present as a confident solo hacker with an inexperienced rider on a new yard, there'd be an awful lot of horses being sent back.

Its a little unfair to accuse SF of condescension, I didn't read it that way. I thought it was reasonable.
 
dogatemysalad said:
Usually I agree with you, but in this instance, I don't.

If every new horse owner sent back a horse that didn't immediately present as a confident solo hacker with an inexperienced rider on a new yard, there'd be an awful lot of horses being sent back.
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I agree to a point. However, in this instance it would appear that the horse has been misrepresented. And as the owner has rights there's no reason not to exercise them.
 
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