Returning a horse not fit for purpose

I'm confused - in a previous post you said that your horse has had 4 owners in the last 4 years, according to her passport? But now you're saying her passport hasn't been updated since 2009?

Yes, the seller should have updated the passport to include her details when she purchased the horse - passports are supposed to be updated within 30 days of purchase. Even though you're currently in dispute with the seller, you should still have updated the passport with your details, as you've had this horse since...July? So I think you're on thin ice there.

What exactly are you hoping to achieve here? You don't seem sure. Do you still want to return the horse, for a full refund? Or are you trying to close down the seller's trekking centre?
 
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well they gypsy cob society had their Passport issuing status removed some time ago, I think all updates were then to be done by the british lippazaner society, are you actually down as owner?

re. the licensing, inspection occurs once per year. Any horses acquired during the 12 months post inspection were certainly not inspected separately and afaik no notification had to be given to the council that new animals were in use until the next inspection. - I'm not sure they ever had to be passed as 'safe' just sound and a quick basic check of vital signs so I don't think that is of any use to you.
 
wakijaki said:
Just to update any one following this threat to the latest developments....as advised by the BHS and various people I today phoned up the Citizens Advice Bureau and they advised me the same as the BHS and said they would pass my details on to Trading Standards.
I wasn't even expecting them to contact me but while I was at work tonight they rang and spoke to my other half and From what I can gather - the seller didn't register my horse to be worked in the trekking center at all. Seems as if each horse gets inspected yearly and has to pass a vet inspection and if used for treks and lessons it has to be named and checked as fit and safe to do so...being that they will come into contact with members of the public, some of whom might of never been around a horse before.
So from what they told my other half - if they can use my help to prove the seller used my horse in the center they will prosecute her as its not the first time they have received complaints about her.
Im also concerned that for someone who regually buys and sells horses the passport she gave me with my horse hasnt been updated since 2009 and is in fact a gypsy cob socitey passport.....surely this is also a strike against her considering she had the horse for well over a year?
Can anyone enlighten me on this as I have to wait til monday til I can speak to the woman from the council myself
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Depends if she had the horse before her yearly inspection. If a horse came into riding school AFTER the inspection it wouldn't be seen til the following year
 
Buddy'sMum said:
I'm confused - in a previous post you said that your horse has had 4 owners in the last 4 years, according to her passport? But now you're saying her passport hasn't been updated since 2009?

Yes the passport has details written in but owing to the fact that its a now no longer existing company - its plainly obvious that the seller hasnt bothered to send the passport off as required by law. As stated I havent updated the passport as havent owned a horse since the passport thing came about and I have been trying since the first week to get the seller to take the horse back - which she obviously wouldn't do without the passport if i had sent it off. Where as she has no excuse for not updating the passport with in the 14+ months she owned her


Im not trying to get her closed down but as she made it clear to me that the horse was used safely within the trekking center and for riding lessons I assumed that meant the horse had been properly checked and was fit and safe to be used which isnt the case. I want to return the horse and have my money back obviously - I was advised to ring trading standards - I can hardly help that they would like to act on the information I have given them because its also not the first time she has been reported to them. Whether thats on the ground of other issues with the center itself or with another Haflinger I know she sold that was also returned as being unrideable and dangerous Im not sure.
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thanks for your reply ester
i can understand that but she owned the mare for 14 months and from what the trading standards people said the horse would have to be inspected before being used for general public which they had no record of the horse at all - not even that it was there but out of work which is also required.
 
wakijaki said:
Yes the passport has details written in but owing to the fact that its a now no longer existing company - its plainly obvious that the seller hasnt bothered to send the passport off as required by law. As stated I havent updated the passport as havent owned a horse since the passport thing came about and I have been trying since the first week to get the seller to take the horse back - which she obviously wouldn't do without the passport if i had sent it off. Where as she has no excuse for not updating the passport with in the 14+ months she owned her
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Regardless of the fact that you're in dispute with the person you bought her from, you should have had the passport updated - you have owned the horse for 6 months. So really, you and the previous 3/4 owners have all broken the law.

wakijaki said:
Im not trying to get her closed down but as she made it clear to me that the horse was used safely within the trekking center and for riding lessons I assumed that meant the horse had been properly checked and was fit and safe to be used which isnt the case.
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You assumed she'd been properly checked in what way? Annual inspections of riding schools/trekking centres check the wellbeing, general health and workload of the horses, not their behaviour when being handled or ridden.

This seems to me to be a classic case of a novice buying a totally unsuitable horse without a vetting and not seeking professional help to address behavioural problems before they get out of hand. I'm sorry you and your horse have had such a rough time.
 
Buddy'sMum said:
This seems to me to be a classic case of a novice buying a totally unsuitable horse without a vetting and not seeking professional help to address behavioural problems before they get out of hand. I'm sorry you and your horse have had such a rough time.
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This seems a little unfair, the OP was sold this pony by a professional and was assured that it was a safe novice horse, the only thing she has really done wrong was to be too trusting, we can all easily fall into that trap.
OP I hope you manage to get some redress over this, sounds like the seller has previous form, so I would persue your case on the grounds of the horse being misold by a dealer.
If more people stand up to these dodgy dealers and dont just roll over and give in, we might have less of them trying it on.
 
hollybear said:
This seems a little unfair, the OP was sold this pony by a professional and was assured that it was a safe novice horse, the only thing she has really done wrong was to be too trusting, we can all easily fall into that trap.
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But the horse was fine when the OP tried her and the first few times she rode her at home. Didn't the person who owned the horse before the trekking centre say she was too quiet for her? So are we sure the trekking centre dealer is a 'dodgy dealer'? Yes, perhaps she shouldn't have sold an opinionated Haffy to a novice but I hardly think that's against the law. Chances are these behavioural problems could have been sorted quickly if the OP had sought professional help.
 
Buddy'sMum said:
But the horse was fine when the OP tried her and the first few times she rode her at home. Didn't the person who owned the horse before the trekking centre say she was too quiet for her? So are we sure the trekking centre dealer is a 'dodgy dealer'? Yes, perhaps she shouldn't have sold an opinionated Haffy to a novice but I hardly think that's against the law. Chances are these behavioural problems could have been sorted quickly if the OP had sought professional help.
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My recollection was that the mare was not used regularly for trekking as she was difficult and bucked people off, this was underplayed but given at some point as part of the reason for selling, that she supposedly was suited to a novice rider to potter around on and would be happier in a private home. The OP later researched and found that she had been passed around as "difficult" ending up in the trekking yard as being in professional hands was thought to be the answer.

She was good when tried but how was this set up, it can be easy enough to make the trial fit the horses preferences, to avoid any situations where she may have been more tricky, part of being a pro is that you should be able to set things up for the horse to succeed even if it is false.

The OP has made mistakes, the dealer has been unhelpful and probably untruthful, the mare is more than likely a difficult ride that has never been properly or consistently handled or ridden and unfortunately is on a downward spiral that it is unlikely to end well as this has been going on for years, not just since the OP purchased her.

I find it difficult to see a positive result, the mare requires some serious work by a pro but financially this is probably not viable, a month in rehab and schooling will cost more than she is worth and may still not be enough to get her back on track to be a useful animal suited to a novice, gifting her to someone prepared to do the work may be the best option for the horse but not the current owner who will lose the money invested, I have seen this scenario often enough to know for the owner it is most likely to end up proving expensive.
 
Buddy'sMum said:
But the horse was fine when the OP tried her and the first few times she rode her at home. Didn't the person who owned the horse before the trekking centre say she was too quiet for her? So are we sure the trekking centre dealer is a 'dodgy dealer'? Yes, perhaps she shouldn't have sold an opinionated Haffy to a novice but I hardly think that's against the law. Chances are these behavioural problems could have been sorted quickly if the OP had sought professional help.
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Surely though if a horse is sold as safe for a novice and then becomes badly behaved and dangerous when handled by one, it is not really a novice horse?

The OP made it quite clear to the dealer what she needed, and IMO, was sold a totally unsuitable horse, so I still think that the pony was mis-sold and as such, the OP has a right to return it as it is not as described.
 
It's not unusual for owners to never register themselves with the Passport issuer.When we bought knobberpony in 2011,I sent her passport off,only to get a phone call from the issuer to say that the 3 previous owners had never registered as such,and had just written their details in.I had to contact the last people who had registered her,who had done so in 1996,and ask them to confirm in writing that they had sold her.

Interestingly,they had sold her to a livery on their yard and knobberpony was so naughty that this person did not want her name associated with such a pony,therefore never registered her.The new owner couldn't even catch her and bring her in,the old owners had to do it.Neither of her next 2 homes bothered either,including the people we bought her from,who'd had her 3 years.
 
hollybear said:
This seems a little unfair, the OP was sold this pony by a professional and was assured that it was a safe novice horse, the only thing she has really done wrong was to be too trusting, we can all easily fall into that trap.
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Actually I agree with BuddysMum, this is a classic case of novice buying. Yes the OP has been too trusting, that's obvious, but could have been eliminated had she an experienced horse person go with her to view the pony beforehand. It's not a trap "we can all easily fall into"; experienced buyers don't generally fall into these traps. So the moral of the story is, if you are not an experienced buyer, find someone to take with you who is.
 
Buddy'sMum said:
But the horse was fine when the OP tried her and the first few times she rode her at home. Didn't the person who owned the horse before the trekking centre say she was too quiet for her? So are we sure the trekking centre dealer is a 'dodgy dealer'? Yes, perhaps she shouldn't have sold an opinionated Haffy to a novice but I hardly think that's against the law. Chances are these behavioural problems could have been sorted quickly if the OP had sought professional help.
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When i tried the mare they tacked her up for me. They also had to hold her as she wouldnt stand to be mounted but they said this was down to her being excited to be back in work....yes I know...warning bells should of sounded but hindsight is a beautiful thing and I was excited myself as its not everyday you go to view a horse so I assumed she was picking up on my excitement.
Yes I rode her 2x when I got her- both on very short hacks....probably 20 minutes and she was ok, bit hesitant and needed pushing along but otherwise ok.
Im not saying the seller is a 'dodgy dealer' ...what I am saying is she knew the horse was difficult, she knew I wanted a novice horse as the idea was my friend could ride her and we could safely pop the kids on her as well which i was told she would be perfect for.
What i am saying is this woman had the horse for 14 months and couldnt do much with her herself - even though she is a 'professional' who takes in horses for breaking and schooling - Who also sold another haflinger not long before mine to a similar sort of home - mother wanted a quiet horse in which she would be able to lead her daughters pony from - again assured the horse would be perfect when in fact it ended up being returned for all the same reasons as my mare.....what i am saying is even say the mare was 100% perfect there - surely any conscientious seller who cares about either the horses, her customers or even her reputation would of at least come to see the horse and how it was behaving instead of telling me the mare was just having fun with me?
 
be positive said:
My recollection was that the mare was not used regularly for trekking as she was difficult and bucked people off, this was underplayed but given at some point as part of the reason for selling, that she supposedly was suited to a novice rider to potter around on and would be happier in a private home. The OP later researched and found that she had been passed around as "difficult" ending up in the trekking yard as being in professional hands was thought to be the answer.

She was good when tried but how was this set up, it can be easy enough to make the trial fit the horses preferences, to avoid any situations where she may have been more tricky, part of being a pro is that you should be able to set things up for the horse to succeed even if it is false.

.
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Yes - excatly this and while I freely admit I made mistakes with the purchase I would also like to say that buying from someone who runs a business and indeed a 'family friendly' trekking yard - I was a lot more trusting than I would of been buying from a private seller. To buy this 100% quiet and easy mare and then have so many issues and to also find out once I started digging that she has a long history of this was not what I expected.
Also the trial was I arrived, they already had her in the stable, they tacked her up, helped me mount and we went on a trek following the seller on her horse, we came back for a 5 minute walk along a busy road as my main concern had been that she be safe to hack.
 
Spring Feather said:
Actually I agree with BuddysMum, this is a classic case of novice buying. Yes the OP has been too trusting, that's obvious, but could have been eliminated had she an experienced horse person go with her to view the pony beforehand. It's not a trap "we can all easily fall into"; experienced buyers don't generally fall into these traps. So the moral of the story is, if you are not an experienced buyer, find someone to take with you who is.
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As the pony was mostlywell behaved on the day of viewing I fail to see how taking someone else with me would of made any difference to the general outcome? Yes looking back the fact that they tacked her up and someone had to hold her for me to mount might have set off warning bells but these issues where fixed with me learning a different way around it...ie I sorted these issues out myself by learning natural horsemanship techniques and doing ground work. The things that I cant deal with is her spinning whenever the mood takes her and giving double barrels, the biting, kicking, napping, bucking and bolting...non of which she did on the day anyway but some of which i later learned she was known to do while there - again - not that they would of told me...
Also - experienced buyers only get experienced at buying by buying....we all start somewhere and this was my first time....which is why I went to what I thought was a reputable seller rather than joe blogs round the corner
 
Also I should add that I didnt have the option of taking anyone with me as I didnt have a large circle of horse friends as I was only just coming back into horses after a 14 year break and those I did have were too busy with work and their own things to help. Its only through people close by seeing me struggle so much that my horsey circle has expanded so that I now would have that option and have several friends to chose from if/when I ever look to buy another horse
 
I don't think the OP needs to be told where's she's gone wrong in purchasing the wrong horse, I should imagine that she feels bad enough already.

But for the grace of God, there go I.
 
Spicesnsnow said:
I don't think the OP needs to be told where's she's gone wrong in purchasing the wrong horse, I should imagine that she feels bad enough already.

But for the grace of God, there go I.
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Given that she thinks taking someone who knew what they was doing would have no difference I agree there's no point in point out the numerous alarm bells that ought to have put her off this poor poor horse.
 
The thing is even if you don't have a plethora of experienced equestrian friends to guide you many would pay for somebody's time to assist - current instructor etc. Who would likely advise against the purchase of a horse without seeing it caught, groomed, tacked up, ridden in school and out and may have been more likely to pick up on subtle signs that all was not well. In addition to the fact that very few people would recommend a haffy as a suitable novice mount. They do not have a reputation for being uncomplicated.
 
OP of possible i would stick with the 7 day notice that you have given

There are several months of dilly dallying and at least one 14 day empty threat behind you and its not surprising that the old owner is ignoring things if they know you wont go through with it!

In the nicest possible way it sounds like you want fate to decide for you rather than have a definite path but you need to focus now on what your aim is otherwise sooner or later you will pass the point where it becomes possible or credible for you to return the horse and you will be stuck with it
 
Apologies if it has already been said - I have not read all the posts but if I were you I would scrape the pennies together and return her and then look to recoup the costs of the transport through the small claims court once you are reimbursed the sale money.
 
A horse that 'bucks in the school because it's bored' is not a Novice horse and that would have set alarm bells ringing for me. It sounds as if there are pain related problems as well as temperament problems and the riding school wanted rid without being completely honest and not actually caring where the pony ended up anyway.
I hope you get it sorted out OP but can't help feeling sorry for the pony.
 
Maybe she was never broken in properly. She doesn't exactly sound happy, but it could just be confusion. I assume you've had a vet see her? I would literally re-break from scratch, and not move on until she understands each concept. (especially the basics like woah/go/steer)

ETA old post. What happened in the end?
 
wakijaki said:
I bought a haflinger mare 6 weeks ago from a trekking center. She was described as quiet to ride and 100% in all ways. I went to view and ride her and she was fine although they tacked her up for me and we hacked out and she followed behind almost the whole time. The seller assured me she would be a great first pony as I explained I was coming back after a long break and wanted something quiet and safe to have fun hacks and beach rides with.
She has been difficult to handle from day one. Bolshy bargey throwing her weight around. Naps very badly and I'm unable to ride her alone as she won't go and then tries spinning backing up and bolting for the gate home. She has also bucked with me in the field and also on the road and also while I have been leading her. I tried lunging her once and she kept charging for me and spinning and bucking inwards at me.
The seller did say she would buck in the school as she was easily bored.
Have been in touch with the seller several times over the 6 weeks saying I wasn't happy and she was being a nightmare and dangerous to handle. She offered to have her back for two weeks training free of charge if I took her there... An 80 mile round trip... but has refused to accept there are these problems or to take her back for a refund.
It's got to the point now where I'm scared of getting hurt around her and am a bag of nerves getting on her even in company. She happily hacks in company as long as she is behind.
Should day I have had her checked all over... Back tack feet teeth and all are fine. Back lady said she had very bad behaviour issues and wanted to fight first. She has been difficult for everyone to handle not just me. Every day everything is just a big fight with her. I have tried being soft and gentle and have tried being firm and strict... Either way she reacts the same.
Where do I stand about getting her sent back legally? Receipt says sold as seen but I have copies of the adverts where she claims she is quiet and 100%... She is anything but.
Thanks
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This sounds pretty similar to what happened to me. I was sold a mare for hacking and schooling as being a beginners poney and a saint. The first day I got her home she was ok, pretty chilled out actually. From day 2 onwards she was a nightmare, agressive, bargy, nappy. I would be covered in bruises just from brushing her as she would barge me up against the wall. One day I rode her out and just decided it was make or break time for me, if I couldn't ride her I was not putting myself through it again. I got her out of the stables with lots of reversing but we made it and did a 20 minute hack. Breakthrough!!!!

Anyway, long story short I still have her. We have got through so much together and she is only occassionally nappy now. But she has calmed so much that my kids can brush her and get her in from the field. But it took months!!!!!! I have had some of the best times with her and the best rides!

Unfortunatley moving and having to rehome her. gutted as so worried for her as know someone will have to be really patient with her. difference being I am being very honest about her temperment!
 
Hi all
OP here with an update as i didnt realise anyone was still following this thread and had forgotten about it.
So - the seller never responded to me. I had gotten advice from BHS legal helpline and was about to start pushing the case through the courts - which would of also have been helped by local trading standards as they were going to investigate the trekking center because the horse was never registered to be used for the public there, plus there were other things they were interested in.
I have to say by now I was a nervous wreck and although i was still making sure Lolli was ok - as in she had food and water - I just couldnt stand to be anywhere near her at all.

I was keeping her on my friends farm and she had been helping me with natural horsemanship methods to try to get through to lolli...but with mixed results. To my utter amazement - my friend offered to buy her off me for what i had paid.
Obviously - this wasnt what i wanted - i wanted the seller to take her back as she should of done - but it did mean that I wouldnt have the stress and expense and more wasted time of having to go to court and see what happened there. I also knew that it was what was best for the horse as there was no other way i would of gotten her such a good home and also she didnt have to put up with the stress of having to move again.

So after many talks with my friend and making totally sure she knew what she was buying I agreed to sell her.
I still think now I should of gone through with the court thing or just given up and sent her to market because I feel bad for my friend.
She has literally restarted her from scratch naturally. Taken the shoes off, taken the bit away and spent so many many hours, days, weeks months, well its been just over a year now and she is still the same.
Admittedly - shes now calmer in the field and less pushy. And my friend has had some great groundwork results with her - but she is still very unpredictable and she is still bolshy. My friend wont admit defeat though - she wants to prove to everyone that she can turn her around by using natural horsemanship methods and being all metal free. But most of the time - Lolli is just lazing around in the field getting fat and not really doing a lot.
My friend has now bought another horse - a totally untouched 5 year old to start for herself.

I wish she would just admit defeat with lolli as i hate to see her going through the same things i went through and to have put all the time and effort in that she has done and with such minimal results is just heartbreaking.

I never went through with helping trading standards against the trekking center - i felt i would of been doing it for the wrong reasons and I just wanted to put an end to what was a horrendous and terrifying experience. I never heard anything back from the seller. All I can do i advise people to avoid her if they ask where to buy a horse from. She has carried on as normal, buying and selling horses, taking horses in for breaking and retraining and running the trekking yard.

As for me - I took a step back from horses for a couple of months as I just couldnt stand the huge sense of failure and even to today my confidence is still knocked.
However I found a lovely little gelding for loan - have had him almost a year now - and am probably going to buy him as he is just perfect for me except for the odd excited tanking off! I can go up and catch, tack him up and trundle off out for a hack on our own without a worry and its bliss!
Lessons were learnt at great cost and I still think I made another huge mistake agreeing to my friend having Lolli from me but maybe eventually she will get through to her.
I thank you for all your replies, advise and interest :-)
 
I can see both sides of this, as someone who sells horses and also reschools.

Firstly what did the advert state? Did it say the pony has been used for trekking and is a novice ride doing so? Etc if so they havnt lied you said the pony was fine out behind out and about. Or did they say novice ride in the school and alone etc in which case they may have told porkies.

Sold as seen to me means just that. You saw the pony and you chose to buy it based on what you have seen. As far as I am aware it's quite hard to send on back with this on the recipet.

I see this a lot with people as I get many contact me a day asking for help. It can go two ways. Someone can fix the pony for you but depending on your ability sometimes they can go home, behave a couple weeks then revert back as they know they can or they stay behaved and the owner loves them.

Are you on a livery yard or on your own?
 
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