Rhythm v forwardness in dressage

[blitznbobs]

Following on from the interesting but somewhat inflamed discussion re tension .... Now I’m an advocate of Rhythm before forward is rather have a rhythmic small trot/canter than a spectacularly forward one but I know others that will disagree

Discuss/ fight or eat popcorn your choice but I promise I won’t cry what ever side you take

 

[ester]

Frank agrees.

are you not providing the refreshments?

 

[blitznbobs]

I have 7 bottles of sloe gin

 

[Tiddlypom]

Yes, rhythm first then forwards for me. My then RI described it rather well as starting off in my horse's 'economy' trot then building it up from there. One of my strengths is riding a good rhythm, so it works well for me.

Defo straight on to the gin, please.

 

[alainax]

I would imagine it varies from horse to horse.

My big guy would duck behind the contact and rush. We learned that The only way out of it was forward. Getting him used to aids being on not always meaning fast. Then once he was forward and in front of the aids, he became strong over his back, balanced and flexible. Mailable in the gaits. From there we could bring him back and establish a good outline, connection and rhythm.

But then he is the type who has a few traditional steps in a different order.

I’d imagine if you had something heavy on the forehand or strong it might be different.

 

[ester]

I don't really like gin but sloe is the best option/one I'm most used to as it seemed rude to refuse hunting!

 

[milliepops]

*Checking in for the gin*
*sprinkles fairydust*

Back later ...

 

[ihatework]

Ideally both from the outset but if it didn’t happen I’d err towards rhythm first - get that tic toc and the horse can then find its balance easier. Then when you have the balance it’s easier to inject the go.

She says. But in reality I prefer to ride those that are forwards whatever

 

[PapaverFollis]

Balance before movement.

I got "needs more purpose" all over the place on my first, and only so far, attempt at a dressage competition. But I'll be damned if I'm going to push her forward onto her forehand so it'll just have to grow as it grows. I'm not in it for the marks anyway.

I think one of my favourite phrases and I can't remember where I read it is "add movement as if from an eyedropper".

 

[Bernster]

<wanders in, checks for popcorn potential, wanders out disappointed>

 

[Roxylola]

But in reality I prefer to ride those that are forwards whatever

My head knows it's better to establish rhythm first. My head also knows I'd ride for more forward anyway

 

[Bernster]

But then appreciates that this is actually an interesting discussion and strides back with purpose..

I tend to have horses that are lacking in oomph but straight and rhythmic and do an accurate test. I find they get decent enough scores albeit I’m talking very low level here, unaff prelim. Harder to get the energy and activity but with F were working through that and when he’s not tense, and I’m not tense, we can pull off a reasonable test.

 

[blitznbobs]

Ideally both from the outset but if it didn’t happen I’d err towards rhythm first - get that tic toc and the horse can then find its balance easier. Then when you have the balance it’s easier to inject the go.

She says. But in reality I prefer to ride those that are forwards whatever

It’s interesting my new chap is forward but because he’s so big if you let him go at his forward pace he loses balance and then everything goes to pot ... so I have to keep him less forward than he would like to be - and now his trot on one rein is getting much more regular I’m allowing him a little more forward ... on the other rein - not so much...

 

[splashgirl45]

its difficult to define forwardness, if the R(cant spell this word) is with a horse hardly moving, that will not be marked well. if horse has some purpose in his steps together with R even if not as forward as the judge would like it will be marked better. if horse is rushing forward it shouldnt get marked better than the hardly moving horse. in training slower with R should be the way to go with impulsion being gradually increased but still keeping the horse in balance. if balance is disturbed pace is too fast and should be slowed and balance re established..easier said than done!!!!!

 

[ihatework]

It’s interesting my new chap is forward but because he’s so big if you let him go at his forward pace he loses balance and then everything goes to pot ... so I have to keep him less forward than he would like to be - and now his trot on one rein is getting much more regular I’m allowing him a little more forward ... on the other rein - not so much...

That’s what a prefer to work with - rebalancing a forward horse.
My current one has real natural rhythm - quite a lot of movement (creates balance issues), but is not actually naturally forwards.

 

[DabDab]

Depends on the horse for me too - some you get to relax and then can tap into the better rhythm by riding them more forward, but with others letting them trundle off at speed or worse still pushing them faster than they can comfortably go, just ends in a hurried bumbling mess and they'll quickly lose confidence in the whole process.

My young mare is naturally a bit of a fire cracker. Even in the field she never ambles. She marches from one grazing spot to the next. She falls into the first category. If I tried to slow her down she would be dipping in and out of different rhythms and ways of moving, whereas if I actively ride her forwards it encourages her to find her own rhythm, and I can then use half halts to get her using her body evenly.

 

[milliepops]

I'm trying to remember when I last had a normal horse to ride and train
Nope. So I will answer from the POV of retraining my crackpots.
I think I would give a different answer for each horse tbh. I would like to think there's a "main" way that you could start off, but I really think it depends on the horse's background if you have anything other than a blank canvas, and even then it will depend on the horse's natural talents and difficulties, and it's brain.

Of the horses I've ridden and trained for competition in recent years, since those are the ones I've worked with on a very regular basis, I have had one that was buzzy and tense and behind the contact (spanish) and definitely needed to find a rhythm first. Only then did he learn about contact, and with those 2 things installed we could start to work on being able to ride forward, as opposed to running forward.

One that had to go forward in order to find a rhythm (kira) she was so backward and also unfit, that until she got the hang of moving freely forward any old how, there was no opportunity to teach her anything. when we got some cadence and movement in the whole body then I began to work on other things.

One that could do neither rhythm nor forward, because she was so crooked it was like riding a boomerang. (salty) Her arse would overtake her when riding a downward transition. So everything went out of the window while we just did straightness. Now she's reasonably straight for a novice horse, and tbh I'm not quite sure with her which of rhythm and forward comes next for her, it's hard to tell. I think she really is a horse you have to tear the book up with, and I'm going for let-go-ness (what's that in german?!) mental and physical suppleness. When she's let go of her tension, then she is naturally forward, and rhythmical, and it's all there ready to go.

Millie was a funny one, I really only wanted to event her so papered over cracks in her schooling in order to crack on and jump. When we swapped to pure dressage I had to go back and fix some things. The thing she was lacking was contact/submission and until that was sorted then the rest was inaccessible or pointless.

So as I usually do, I think I've concluded that there isn't a formula for success really, if you are starting with damaged goods. I expect those who have a succession of young horses without baggage have a different answer

 

[PapaverFollis]

Both the horses I've had to play with are very forward but neither were off the leg to start... they were running from the leg rather than accepting the aids. With both it was a case of going back to walk and starting again. Slowing everything right down. Granny would literally put her head down or up depending on her mood and charge when I got her. She'd been ruined by push on and pick up type training and wasn't even balanced enough to trot a half circuit of the school without pretty much falling on her face. It took an awful long time but by the time she retired we were doing credible shoulder in and travers and working on half pass. It was about the limit of her physical capabilities and my riding at that point.

The Beast was just utterly green. I was sooooooo sceptical despite the experience with Granny of going back to walk and really working from there ... but OH insisted and I hate to say it but I think he's right. It's not doing us any favours in the dressage ring right now but I have to be honest I'm not that bothered (a little bit as who doesn't want some praise) and don't have much opportunity to compete anyway so I have to find some other purpose. It's coming and when her trot is at its current best it's like... I dunno... if that's not what it's about, if that's not right, I don't know what the point is basically.

 

[ycbm]

I've got two green horses in training. The three year old is naturally forward and has to be slowed down to find his rhythm. The ex racer is thinking backwards and will need to be sent forwards to find his rhythm.

Does that answer get me any slow/fast gin 😁 ?

 

[milliepops]

ycbm after the day's events in C&T I think the gin is free flowing for one and all

 

[Cortez]

Yeah ycbm, where were you when we were having fun over there in the madness thread? There was a fashion a while ago to ride everything as if the devil was after it, in search of "forvarts!" which resulted, often, in horses rushed off their feet and pushed put of their rhythm. I prefer, now that I don't have to ride for other people, to get them steady and ticking like a clock before getting them up, up and away.

 

[Mule]

I choose rhythm. It's more about balance for me. I'll focus on balance before forwards, as long as the horse is already in front of the leg.

 

[DabDab]

MP - As someone who's had more blank canvases to ride than prestarted (in whatever fashion), I don't think being too fixed in your approach is particularly helpful/possible even if you're on a blank canvas. If you are a capable pro and have the luxury of having the same sort of horse to ride over and over then I think you can start to be a bit more prescriptive in your approach. But for the likes of us riding essentially whatever lands in our lap (within reason), I think it's quite normal for the definition of the 'right' way to do things to bend with the horse under us.

 

[ycbm]

Yeah ycbm, where were you when we were having fun over there in the madness thread? There was a fashion a while ago to ride everything as if the devil was after it, in search of "forvarts!" which resulted, often, in horses rushed off their feet and pushed put of their rhythm. I prefer, now that I don't have to ride for other people, to get them steady and ticking like a clock before getting them up, up and away.

I stayed out of that one. I was having trouble imagining a tense horse who maintained rhythm, contact and bend, while able to see a 'lazy horse do exactly that.

You can still see 'forvarts!' at my local centre at every competition. There is one judge in particular who will score 'forward' above everything else, and I've watched her train people to do it. The horses, to me, look rushed, tipped onto their forehand, tense/worried and breaking in rhythm especially on corners.

I prefer your approach.

 

[Goldenstar]

Rhytmn is the base of everything .
The late Lady Joicey drummed into me you can’t ride in more impulsion than the balance can cope with .
I did like them wild when I was younger .

 

[milliepops]

MP - As someone who's had more blank canvases to ride than prestarted (in whatever fashion), I don't think being too fixed in your approach is particularly helpful/possible even if you're on a blank canvas. If you are a capable pro and have the luxury of having the same sort of horse to ride over and over then I think you can start to be a bit more prescriptive in your approach. But for the likes of us riding essentially whatever lands in our lap (within reason), I think it's quite normal for the definition of the 'right' way to do things to bend with the horse under us.

Yeah totally understand that.
I did a yard visit at one of our olympic medalists a while back and they did appear to start every young horse with the same kind of work/tack/routine etc. I guess they have a steady stream of similar bred, similarly put together and er, similarly brained horses so that approach probably works well in that situation, cos you can have all the staff on the same page and just crack on with confidence.

 

[Wheels]

It depends on the horse for me. I've had a couple who came to me not very responsive and who would fall behind the leg quite often, for both of those they needed forward forward forward at every opportunity because they would just slow the rhythm otherwise. Once they'd learnt forwards and were sharper off the leg then we could work more on the rhythm and balance.

Other speedy ones have needed relaxation first and foremost, I want forward but I want relaxed and forward and some of the naturally speedy ones don't have natural relaxation. One way to get relaxation is via rhythm but some speedy horses also have natural rhythm but lack balance.

So... it depends

 

[daffy44]

Obviously you need both. But as to which comes first it totally depends on the horse, some need to be ridden forward in order to find their rhythm, some need to slow down to be secure in the rhythm before you can ride them forwards, the constant for me, whichever way you need to do it, is that either way you must never push the horse out of balance.

 

[PapaverFollis]

I don't think 'forvarts!' is necessarily in the past is it? Polework clinic with visiting instructor. "Push her on!" I protested but was asked to "humour me".... Beast promptly got more on her forehand and started leaning on my hand more. It was marginal but it was there. Then I got "lift her up with your core and hands"... hmm. And a horse that was clumping poles all over the place because she wasn't balanced, she wasn't impulsive, she wasn't able to lift... pushing her on did not help. Oh but she was more forward and "purposeful" so thats cool? Once I've recovered from feeling like I let my horse down I'm going to set up poles at home and see if we can't do a bit better ourselves. I'm pretty sure if I ride her in her current happy place she'll bounce up over the poles no bother. I could be wrong. I'm still learning.

 

[scats]

In an ideal world- rhythm first. But, as we all know, it’s not always an ideal world.

Millie was a slug when she arrived. She had zero enthusiasm for schooling, was unfit and on the porky side, and if you didn’t nag her every stride, she stopped! I needed forwardness before I could even contemplate rhythm.

First thing I did was sharpen up. She had to learn to go forwards off my leg straight away, and maintain whatever pace I had put her until told otherwise. Rhythm couldn’t even come into it at this point, I couldn’t have cared less how lacking in rhythm she was, I just wanted a response and a horse forward and off my leg. Once I achieved this (mostly through hacking, field riding and a once weekly school session), I was able to think about rhythm.

Polly, on the other hand, is like sitting on a firework. It’s all about rhythm with her.