Riding under Sedaline?!

[TheMule]

I think you've probably given him enough time to prove that he's not going to be the competition horse you want. I'm sure he could do a useful job for someone if he is nice at home. For whatever reason, it sounds like he just doesnt want to play the game and it's not fair on him or fun for you to continue trying

 

[StoptheCavalry]

I am not qualified to comment regarding the sedalin - but what I have understood from this is that if you were to go into the arena with the same jumps to just train he would be better than if you were to go in with the same jumps but for a competition? Everyone seems to be focussed on the cataracts but from what you have said he has experience in these venues and arenas etc but massively falls apart in a competition setting at the same venue, in which case while the cataracts may contribute to the problem surely it is more of a "ring shy" issue than medical issue?

Everyone is saying that he is shouting to be heard etc but I had a friend with a foreign mare, very talented. She didn't particularly do any serious competing with her but when the mood took her the mare would literally stand in the corner on two legs constantly. One day it could be a clear round, the next 1m+ there was no consistency in what caused it, not venue, tack, coloured/rustic fences. After trying pretty much everything what seemed to really help her was to remove all pressure and once my friend decided she didn't actually care if she competed or not, if there was a space on the wagon she would come along if not she wouldn't bother, the horse actually improved. However I think by this point the fun of competing was completely zapped and so she really just didn't enjoy it anymore. She went on to be a brilliant hunter though - generally with all 4 feet on the ground.

 

[Firewell]

OP you said you sent him to a Pro and he got better...then got worse once you got him back.
If it's not physical with the eye then it's a confidence and security issue..and maybe it's because you are not suited to him?! He may be better with someone else.

 

[Supanova]

Ok, from what you've said i don't necessarily agree with the others that this is to do with the eyes. Correct me if i'm wrong but it primarily seems to be when you try and take him away from other horses, so it seems more like separation anxiety / nappiness or he's picking up on your body's reaction to competition nerves or your body's reaction to the expectation he will do this - does this sound right?

Now I bet you're hoping that i am going to give you some real pearls of wisdom as to how to deal with it.....which i'm afraid i'm not! I have a mare who is very similar. I agree that the root cause is probably the way the young girl dealt with this in the first place. All horses will have separation anxiety. I have two mares. When i bought my first mare she hacked out ok the first day, second day she tried to nap towards home - i dealt with it really badly as i was less experienced and was scared. She will now not hack and is nappy at shows etc. My second mare also hacked out fine first few times but as she got to know me and home, she started to try to nap back home - this time i learnt from my experience and dealt with it better. She now hacks fine.

What i'm trying to say is that these early experiences and how people deal with them do form behaviour patterns, which do not necessarily mean the horse is absolutely terrified or in pain. The difficulty is - how do you break the pattern? This is obviously not easy......... however it may be worth considering something like clicker training so you are using positive reinforcement rather than negative reinforcement. It seems to me that the horse needs to be persuaded that there is a reward to doing what you ask. At the moment if he does go in the ring for you, all that happens is that he jumps round the course in a rush and is probably a bit scared. How about taking him to a clear round and if he goes in the ring, just have a canter round and give him a big pat and polo and come out. Give him a break, take him in again and pop one fence and then reward and come out. Then go home. I know this is not an easy process and will take a long time, but I really think that unless the motivation of the horse changes (i.e. there is a good reason for him to want to go in the ring, other than escaping from pressure) then you will never really fix the problem.

 

[StoptheCavalry]

Infact whilst thinking about this I have thought of another horse. He was a beautiful hunter bred for the show ring. He did very well but at the age of about 6 he fell apart. One day he may be great, the next day you couldn't get near him. Everything was on his terms and no one could quite work out what was wrong, one day after deciding he would rather go left than right on a hack (with others) he threw his rider twice, literally one after the other, the next day he would be the safe horse you could put your granny on. Eventually after crashing (quite literally) through fences at osbaldeston he was turned out, no rug just left to be a horse. He had been that way for about 2 years and his attitude has done a complete 180, he seems to be mentally scarred by something to do with competing to the point where now if you put front boots on him as you would at competitions he will FREAK out and go mad. He needs to be treated with kid gloves and everything has to be so slow with him. After all this chances are he will never set the world alight as he just can't take the pressure. I don't think I have the patience to deal with this but maybe your horse just needs a little time to get himself together and stop being such a diva and realise he is actually a horse. This obviously may only apply if there is no medical issue but might be worth considering

 

[ellie_e]

If I honestly thought it was medical I would get it treated, I love this horse, he's a horse of a life time- except the arena shy, nappiness.
The one venue is where our RC is held, so he's there a lot, dressaging, jumping, in group lessons, and BD and BS shows are held there- he should be able to go in to the arena without a care in the world, not thinking something is going to kill him. Yet on another day we've been placed there!

I am not qualified to comment regarding the sedalin - but what I have understood from this is that if you were to go into the arena with the same jumps to just train he would be better than if you were to go in with the same jumps but for a competition? Everyone seems to be focussed on the cataracts but from what you have said he has experience in these venues and arenas etc but massively falls apart in a competition setting at the same venue, in which case while the cataracts may contribute to the problem surely it is more of a "ring shy" issue than medical issue?

Everyone is saying that he is shouting to be heard etc but I had a friend with a foreign mare, very talented. She didn't particularly do any serious competing with her but when the mood took her the mare would literally stand in the corner on two legs constantly. One day it could be a clear round, the next 1m+ there was no consistency in what caused it, not venue, tack, coloured/rustic fences. After trying pretty much everything what seemed to really help her was to remove all pressure and once my friend decided she didn't actually care if she competed or not, if there was a space on the wagon she would come along if not she wouldn't bother, the horse actually improved. However I think by this point the fun of competing was completely zapped and so she really just didn't enjoy it anymore. She went on to be a brilliant hunter though - generally with all 4 feet on the ground.

 

[JillA]

Out of interest, what do you do when your horse rears and refuses to go?

I had a mare who napped badly and her chosen protest was a rear. I read about the German "mill" - i.e. turn to their stiffest side, a real tight nose-to-your-boot circle. It HAS to be tight, any softer and they could still rear but topple over - it is an effective aversion therapy IF you know everything else has been checked out and it is napping, pure and simple. After a full circle you ask for forward again and if they offer another rear, circle again until they consent to go forward, then reward well. It took four episodes, on the 5th I felt her hesitate, took a feel on that rein and then felt her let go and decide forwards was much the preferable option.
She went on to be one of the best mares I have ever known, that strong determination became channelled to work for me rather than against me. But it should be used only in the most experienced hands and only after everything else is checked and eliminated.

 

[TarrSteps]

I get all that, and I do try to be sympathetic, but he was warming up lovely yesterday, a steward called me over to say what a nice horse he is, then 2mins later, rearing and throwing his toys out, I get that his eye isnt great, but they can have a very good competitive life with just one eye! Was it Ellen W's horse just had one eye?

Lots of horses live happily with one eye. But any specialist will tell you that horses with compromised vision struggle much more. I've seen more than one person struggle to "save" their horse's eye from a serious condition, only to have the horse become more and difficult and then they give up the fight, remove the eye and the horse reverts to a much more settled state.

Horses hate uncertainly and are hard wired to react to change. Their vision relies mostly on movement and their processing of what they see relies on quick reactions. A horse that sticks around to check out the fine details is lunch. So it's not much of a stretch to see that blurry or compromised vision is much more anxiety producing than no vision at all, especially to a horse being asked new questions. (Most of the horses I know working successfully with one eye have either been that way from birth or do jobs they did before they lost their sight, usually with the same people. I don't think this is coincidental.)

 

[TarrSteps]

Btw, I am not saying it IS the cataract, only that, as others have said, it's impossible to extrapolate the medical information into a firm diagnosis of his behaviour one way or the other. Often, when you hear hoofbeats, it DOES mean horses, not zebras. A far more likely scenario is that there are multiple factors in play and addressing enough them might very well give you a workable solution, at least in the short term. In that way, various training approaches might very well help, if only by giving the horse more structure and ability to rely on his rider rather than his own perception of the environment.

 

[ellie_e]

Thanks for this, my DR trainer also recomended me try keeping my one hand low and wide- almost behind me knee, but found this almost made him go higher? Will try circling instead. I honestly believe its napping/ring shy if I thought he was in suffering he would be treated, vet saw him last Thursday and told me to up his work!!

I had a mare who napped badly and her chosen protest was a rear. I read about the German "mill" - i.e. turn to their stiffest side, a real tight nose-to-your-boot circle. It HAS to be tight, any softer and they could still rear but topple over - it is an effective aversion therapy IF you know everything else has been checked out and it is napping, pure and simple. After a full circle you ask for forward again and if they offer another rear, circle again until they consent to go forward, then reward well. It took four episodes, on the 5th I felt her hesitate, took a feel on that rein and then felt her let go and decide forwards was much the preferable option.
She went on to be one of the best mares I have ever known, that strong determination became channelled to work for me rather than against me. But it should be used only in the most experienced hands and only after everything else is checked and eliminated.

 

[ester]

That's where I kind of agree with both supanova and tarrsteps, he is possibly the sort of horse inclined to nappiness/other horse company etc/sensitive to rider tenseness and the eye issue just adds to this making it worse than it might other be. Might be wrong but would make sense to me.

OP when doing RC stuff at that arena have you been able to/had the opportunity to try taking him to that arena on his own? so not a comp and you poss more relaxed? Will he do that or is he mostly in there with others (if so lending more to the separation anxiety thing).

 

[ellie_e]

That's where I kind of agree with both supanova and tarrsteps, he is possibly the sort of horse inclined to nappiness/other horse company etc/sensitive to rider tenseness and the eye issue just adds to this making it worse than it might other be. Might be wrong but would make sense to me.

OP when doing RC stuff at that arena have you been able to/had the opportunity to try taking him to that arena on his own? so not a comp and you poss more relaxed? Will he do that or is he mostly in there with others (if so lending more to the separation anxiety thing).

Have tried going in first when in a lesson, fine. If its indoors then needs A little kick, but walks in ok, it's warming up with others, then leaving them to go to another ring,

 

[dafthoss]

I always thought that partial sight was worse than no sight as they are aware that some thing is on that side but cant make it out properly. Its not how much they can see its how they process it that's the issue.

Having seen your above comment have you got a very local venue that you could warm him up at home then go straight in the ring when you arrive so he doesn't have to leave the other horses?

 

[ellie_e]

Good suggestion, worth a try- hadn't really thought about that.

I always thought that partial sight was worse than no sight as they are aware that some thing is on that side but cant make it out properly. Its not how much they can see its how they process it that's the issue.

Having seen your above comment have you got a very local venue that you could warm him up at home then go straight in the ring when you arrive so he doesn't have to leave the other horses?

 

[dieseldog]

I thought when you competed them on Sedalin you didn't let them have water for an hour and then put a drop on the end of a matchstick and dab it under their tongue. It is supposed to just take the edge off. Never done it myself but it is nothing like giving them a tube of the stuff so that you can clip them. I think if you were at a show you would not be able to tell who has had some.

 

[twiggy2]

the horse will not compete and that is what you want to do? how can it be your horse in a million.

i am not sure what else you want people to say,all avenues have been covered but non are possible?

 

[ellie_e]

I thought when you competed them on Sedalin you didn't let them have water for an hour and then put a drop on the end of a matchstick and dab it under their tongue. It is supposed to just take the edge off. Never done it myself but it is nothing like giving them a tube of the stuff so that you can clip them. I think if you were at a show you would not be able to tell who has had some.

Yes exactly, I'm only talking the smallest amount, to take the edge off him- not so much he will fall over!

 

[Wheels]

If he has as bad a reaction as you say then I really doubt that is going to do anything. I've seen a spooked horse fight off much more than that.

I actually don't know why you've come on to ask advice as the majority of people have told you it's not a good idea yet you still appear to be thinking of doing it????

I personally would be working to build my relationship with the horse as it seems that he is not comfortable leaving other horses just to be with you. Horses will generally always rather be with other horses but he should be capable of going with you somewhere and being comfortable enough to leave the others.

I do actually agree with a couple of posters who have mentioned 'natural' type trainers (although JillA I agree that I hate that 'natural' tag too). A good relationship starts on the ground and can be transferred to the saddle. Even traditional / classical style in hand work may be of benefit here to give your horse confidence in you.

 

[ellie_e]

If he has as bad a reaction as you say then I really doubt that is going to do anything. I've seen a spooked horse fight off much more than that.

I actually don't know why you've come on to ask advice as the majority of people have told you it's not a good idea yet you still appear to be thinking of doing it????

I personally would be working to build my relationship with the horse as it seems that he is not comfortable leaving other horses just to be with you. Horses will generally always rather be with other horses but he should be capable of going with you somewhere and being comfortable enough to leave the others.

I do actually agree with a couple of posters who have mentioned 'natural' type trainers (although JillA I agree that I hate that 'natural' tag too). A good relationship starts on the ground and can be transferred to the saddle. Even traditional / classical style in hand work may be of benefit here to give your horse confidence in you.

Because I've had several pm where people have commented how it can be used safely and effectively, but as too often on this forum, people are 'scared' to say what they feel without being jumped on by others.
If you read the first post, I said I was interested in people who have experience with it, not just the 'your a bad owner, etc' for considering using it. I have tried to explain my reasons behind me thinking about it, whether people have bothered to read the whole thread, I probably guess not. If you knew the horse you could perhaps understand why these people have suggested it, they are all qualified instructors, who know myself and horse, not some teenager who thinks its a good Idea. For the people who have commented thank you, I will be looking into the 'natural' horsemanship, as admit, have always discounted it to being 'happy clappy'
I am competing this weekend, at a venue he knows well, and where he has SUCCESSFULLY competed in both DR and SJ, for anyone who is interested I will post a report of my findings and whether, if any drugs used.

 

[be positive]

Regardless of the right or wrongs in using sedalin, it seems to me that in this case it will have little effect, it acts as a muscle relaxant so they can mentally fight it, it could have an effect on his behaviour but will it help long term or actually solve any problems it seems unlikely.
I am surprised you posted, you have disregarded most suggestions on why you should not use it, I think your mind was made up and hope it does not go wrong for the sake of your horse, he may not respond to it anyway, one of mine is extremely sensitive and goes out like a light on a tiny amount and I certainly would not want to ride him but he can still react in a normal way shooting off and rearing when walking in hand after months of box rest, unfortunately when he did go he found it hard to balance and slipped over once or twice risking injury, the thought of jumping while in that state frankly scares me.

 

[DabDab]

Regardless of the right or wrongs in using sedalin, it seems to me that in this case it will have little effect, it acts as a muscle relaxant so they can mentally fight it, it could have an effect on his behaviour but will it help long term or actually solve any problems it seems unlikely.
I am surprised you posted, you have disregarded most suggestions on why you should not use it, I think your mind was made up and hope it does not go wrong for the sake of your horse, he may not respond to it anyway, one of mine is extremely sensitive and goes out like a light on a tiny amount and I certainly would not want to ride him but he can still react in a normal way shooting off and rearing when walking in hand after months of box rest, unfortunately when he did go he found it hard to balance and slipped over once or twice risking injury, the thought of jumping while in that state frankly scares me.

Exactly - the problem with drugs like sedaline is that until you give it to the individual horse and put it in that stressful situation you just don't know how it is going to react. No matter how many positive or negative anecdotes you hear, the truth is that you you won't know how your horse will react until you do it. So if you're willing to risk it then that's up to you. I wouldn't personally, not in a million years. And that's not because I am fluffy or naive, it's because I've ridden horses that have had 'just a touch' of dope (ACP and sedaline), and even when it has the desired effect it ain't a pleasant experience. I certainly wouldn't choose it for any horse whose welfare I had a say in.

 

[TarrSteps]

Regardless of the right or wrongs in using sedalin, it seems to me that in this case it will have little effect, it acts as a muscle relaxant so they can mentally fight it, it could have an effect on his behaviour but will it help long term or actually solve any problems it seems unlikely.
I am surprised you posted, you have disregarded most suggestions on why you should not use it, I think your mind was made up and hope it does not go wrong for the sake of your horse, he may not respond to it anyway, one of mine is extremely sensitive and goes out like a light on a tiny amount and I certainly would not want to ride him but he can still react in a normal way shooting off and rearing when walking in hand after months of box rest, unfortunately when he did go he found it hard to balance and slipped over once or twice risking injury, the thought of jumping while in that state frankly scares me.

To be fair, when I've seen people using it for riding it has been a really tiny amount, far smaller than used for even hand walking. I do wonder if the muscle relaxing aspect is actually what works in some cases. I've ridden horses on muscle relaxants and that can produce a profound (and rather depressing, if you think the horse "should be" sound) effect. As I said, jumping horses on ACP is not, in my experience, a good time and there is ample evidence that it impairs learning so has limited application for educational purposes.

OP, as you say, I have no doubt you've been given private advice and I can easily see why those people would not want to publicly discuss it. (And this is why there can be a huge gulf between what experienced people in the horse industry know and what the average one horse owner has experience with. Secret handshake stuff.) It is, of course, against the rules. If you are bound and determined I would highly advise professional input, maybe even a pro on the horse, to minimise risk. I would also repeat my earlier point that using "chemical restraint" or similar is most effective as a means to an end, not a solution unto itself. I also think there are usually other ways but hey ho, to each their own.

 

[charlie76]

I has a nappy horse, he would rear in the dressage arena and lose the plot, I once competed him HC with a very small amount of sedalin just to see if it actually made any difference. It did, he didn't nap or rear and his score ( although we were HC ) was over 75%
I did it to try and break the cycle of behaviour. It worked with him.

 

[charlie76]

Had not has..

 

[ellie_e]

I has a nappy horse, he would rear in the dressage arena and lose the plot, I once competed him HC with a very small amount of sedalin just to see if it actually made any difference. It did, he didn't nap or rear and his score ( although we were HC ) was over 75%
I did it to try and break the cycle of behaviour. It worked with him.

Thanks- how much did you give him over what period of time?

 

[charlie76]

A tiny bit, about one notch, about an hour before getting on.
I know of some one that did a ode on a full tube!! Mental cases, they did survive, god knows how!!

Another thing that has worked with one of mine is to feed a magnesium calmer at a high does on a daily basis for a few weeks they use oxy shot on the day of the show.

 

[LynH]

My concern with jumping under/after sedation would be the potential risk of damage to relaxed muscles, tendons and ligaments. If a muscle is relaxed then logically there would be an increased risk of overextension of the tendons or ligaments which could result in significant damage.
I believe there have been some studies on the damage caused to athletes who tried to use muscle relaxants to reduce the time spent stretching and warming up the muscles. Instead of warming up and preparing soft tissues for exercise they became relaxed and prone to hyperextension and sprains.
I would want to speak to a vet about the potential risk of injury if a horse is expected to do an activity no normally expected whilst under the influence of this drug.

 

[Queenbee]

Do you know what op, for the RIGHT reasons, I probably would not argue the use of either bute or sedaline... Your reasons are purely selfish, shame on you, you simply couldn't care less about what your horse is telling you! Attitudes like this sicken me, why on earth bother asking for an opinion or guidance, just crack on, dope your horse to force it to do something it's clearly not comfortable with, really hope you get your trophies and rosettes.

 

[Cop-Pop]

It's a banned substance but have you tried Valerian? I recently started feeding it to my mare and if she has a couple of large doses it does take the edge off her. I use the liquid in her food. She did build up a tolerance to it though so only use it when I need it now rather than every day like the instructions say

 

[_GG_]

Do you know what op, for the RIGHT reasons, I probably would not argue the use of either bute or sedaline... Your reasons are purely selfish, shame on you, you simply couldn't care less about what your horse is telling you! Attitudes like this sicken me, why on earth bother asking for an opinion or guidance, just crack on, dope your horse to force it to do something it's clearly not comfortable with, really hope you get your trophies and rosettes.

I have to be honest, this is how I feel. It is not the practice that I disagree with, it is the reason.

I don't think is just one issue. I think it is a number of issues and the OP may have got more useful advice if all of the details had been put in the OP. Finding out about past owners on page 6 or whatever was means you have to accept that people will lean one way...the way the information has taken them.

So, someone has had a negative impact on the behaviour of the horse BUT...it still doesn't explain why it is an inconsistent issue. Hence my feelings that there is more to this horse than is evident in these pages.

Either way...the horse isn't happy and drastic measures for the sake of a rosette is just foreign to me. He's a horse, not a commodity.