Riding under Sedaline?!

[ellie_e]

OP, quite a few of your posts make it clear you believe this horse is behaving this way just to annoy you/because he is naturally unwilling - just in your last post 'he's winning' and 'pretending to spook'. If this is the case, why the reluctance put someone on who is going to be tough on him? If you honestly believe it's simply that he's got your number then you need to find someone to get his and teach you to do likewise.

He puts in as little effort to get the job done, hes not a trier, or something that wants to please.
Likewise, I do feel hes had abit of a bad start, and dont want someone beating the cr*p out of him to make him do what they want either. His demeanour changes when hes left the others, lip purse, high head carriage, calls, sweats etc etc, so although I think he does try his luck most of the time, he does have some separation issue, I just want him to chill out slightly, realise that it wont hurt him, and what im asking him todo is ok, then he can go back on the lorry and eat- which is what makes him most happy!!

 

[The wife]

Oh OP, I do feel sorry for you. So very frustrating for you to have such a talented sounding animal and no job for him. I personally wouldn't attempt jumping on Sedalin. As somebody else has said, it affects the heart rate and I'm not sure that I'd risk over exerting an animal that is not firing on all 5 cyclinders.

Just a little bit of lateral thinking... Does he or would you consider hunting him? (Haven't read all the replies, so apologies if its already been mentioned) I'm just thinking that perhaps a complete change of scenery, with no pressure, where he can jump and go forward and think for himself abit may just give him a little more confidence.

 

[TarrSteps]

I think that's a lot of thinking to expect from a horse.

I don't know how we got from being firm to beating but as I said, we all have different standards.

It's not unheard of to fix whatever is bothering a horse and then still have to be quite clear about the new rules. We use a lot of negative reinforcement in training and one of the real problems with riding horses with problems is that can train the horse into undesirable behaviours. That then requires retraining. Even sedation won't fix a situation, it's merely something some people use to facilitate training.

 

[ellie_e]

Just a little bit of lateral thinking... Does he or would you consider hunting him? (Haven't read all the replies, so apologies if its already been mentioned) I'm just thinking that perhaps a complete change of scenery, with no pressure, where he can jump and go forward and think for himself abit may just give him a little more confidence.

I have thought about it yes- but have never taken him, I dont hunt myself, and dont know anybody that does, that would be willing to take him, although I think its an idea that could be useful, although the hounds and coming and going would drive him crazy, when XC schooling, we generally have to go first or second, and once we've done our thing, drop reins and let him eat to keep him quiet with 4legs on the floor.

 

[The wife]

Good post supernova!
I agree about the change of rider, my friend is a dealer and the amount of trade ins people bring who are terrified of them is unbelievable! 99% of the time within a week or 2 with jockey change they are completely different well behaved horses. ( Not relating this to you op just musing).

We see this a lot too. We've had some described as absolute terrors prior visiting us. We've had 3 in the last couple of months who have broken limbs, torn ligaments etc of their owners and previous trainers and yet within a few weeks are fairly trainable, amenable animals and have continued to be so since they left. One in particular had broken its owners arm tanking to the field, he is now happily working in a riding school behaving perfectly. Another was a renowned rearer, who was badly broken in initially and just needed some guidance. Sometimes a complete change of environment, jockey and methods is all that is needed.

 

[The wife]

I have thought about it yes- but have never taken him, I dont hunt myself, and dont know anybody that does, that would be willing to take him, although I think its an idea that could be useful, although the hounds and coming and going would drive him crazy, when XC schooling, we generally have to go first or second, and once we've done our thing, drop reins and let him eat to keep him quiet with 4legs on the floor.

Phone your local hunt and start hound exercise to at least get him used to seeing hounds, building up to cubbing. chances are he'll be perfect the first time and will be a nightmare for the following few sessions afterwards but persevere with it.

I do wish you the best of luck OP but he sounds like he has some serious deep-seated issues but very well done for sticking with him and for your dignity after some not very nice comments.

 

[aimsymc]

CS is on Egusin SLH-he did the full dose for 2 weeks, then a half dose and is now on 1/4 dose and will stay on that. Its relatively expensive @ £80 for 2 weeks, but if you can get it down to 1/4 dose not too bad in the grand scheme of horse owning!!!!!

maybe knock hacking on the head for a bit-i havent hacked CS for 2 years ish, and it made a huge improvement to his behaviour at shows. Now we have the show part under control ive started pottering round the block again in the last 2 weeks,and he is 500% better, having cemented our relationship/agreement in the arena (he prefers schooling to hacking) he is now happier to go for short hacks. I dont think people understand that aspect of a true competition horse, CS didnt want to hack, didnt want to do *fun* stuff, he wanted to do serious work! So we went with that and now maybe he is ready to hack a little.

is there no way he can stay in more? is there anyone you could pay to bring him in earlier or to skip/hay him at lunch them just lob himout for a couple of hours later one etc? can your mum help out with that at all? anything to get him in a structured routine that HE enjoys.

Just to clarify, what would you class as a "true" competition horse? I know many I would consider serious horses and they all hack out perfectly well. The fact a horse is a "competition" horse has absolutely no bearing on wether it'll hack or not!

 

[little_flea]

Just to clarify, what would you class as a "true" competition horse? I know many I would consider serious horses and they all hack out perfectly well. The fact a horse is a "competition" horse has absolutely no bearing on wether it'll hack or not!

I know many serious competition horses who do not enjoy hacking (and many that do) - I think performance bred animals can be highly strung and less equipped to deal with traffic etc and these problems are exaggerated with high levels of fitness, they are animals who are used to hard work and sometimes likely to get silly (and potentially dangerous) if mind/body is not stimulated enough. In my opinion a horse only needs to hack if that is the job its owner wants it to do. Sure, you can probably desensitise them if it is hugely important that they do hack but personally I don't see why you would go through the fight and the risk if hacking is not the main pursuit.

 

[aimsymc]

I know many serious competition horses who do not enjoy hacking (and many that do) - I think performance bred animals can be highly strung and less equipped to deal with traffic etc and these problems are exaggerated with high levels of fitness, they are animals who are used to hard work and sometimes likely to get silly (and potentially dangerous) if mind/body is not stimulated enough. In my opinion a horse only needs to hack if that is the job its owner wants it to do. Sure, you can probably desensitise them if it is hugely important that they do hack but personally I don't see why you would go through the fight and the risk if hacking is not the main pursuit.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one little flea. I often find its the horses in no work that **** about the most. And I think most if not all eventers would say that hacking is an important part of getting horses fit. Infact event yard I worked on horses were hacked daily alongside other school work. Sorry getting a bit of track here op!

 

[kerilli]

He puts in as little effort to get the job done, hes not a trier, or something that wants to please.
Likewise, I do feel hes had abit of a bad start, and dont want someone beating the cr*p out of him to make him do what they want either. His demeanour changes when hes left the others, lip purse, high head carriage, calls, sweats etc etc, so although I think he does try his luck most of the time, he does have some separation issue, I just want him to chill out slightly, realise that it wont hurt him, and what im asking him todo is ok, then he can go back on the lorry and eat- which is what makes him most happy!!

If he's not going crazy or killing you then he's willing to please...
Sorry, but it sounds as if you have a bit of a downer on this horse. I can totally understand if you are frustrated, if he won't even do the little things (I know that feeling, exactly, believe me) but he is NOT ever doing it just to thwart you... he has his reasons, even if they are unknown at present.

I really don't see why/how "Pro" in your eyes seems to equate exactly with "will beat the cr*p out of him". Pros are pros because they are brilliant at getting horses to do what they want to do, again and again - usually through calm repetition, praise, good technique, experience, and guile. That's how they build/keep confidence and the horses keep doing what the rider wants when the questions get huge...
The number of Pros who would resort to beating a horse who is nervous and frightened (as yours sounds) is imho vanishingly small.
There is a GULF between 'totally determined to convince the horse to do as you want' (if that's what it needs at that moment) and 'beating the cr*p out of it'.

I can't face going back through all these pages, sorry, but what's the story with the cataracts?
If he has them, this is a HUGE deal.
He's a prey animal, his eyes are his biggest asset in the 'am i going to survive today' stakes, and he can't trust them... and nor can you!
Fwiw I retired my best ever horse, who was 100% sound and going brilliantly (just gone DC at OI, entered up for Advanced), on the spot when cataracts were diagnosed (after some out-of-character but not dangerous behaviour.) A horse who cannot believe his/her eyes is a VERY dodgy proposition. I would want a vet to tell me exactly what is going on there, if they can.

You won't get this sorted in 5 minutes, if you can at all, but I'm sure you know that. ANY good Pro will know that too - it's not a case of climbing aboard, bashing it to make it do x, and then saying 'great, it did as it was told, it's cured, you'll never have another problem." This will take the right person, the right management, the right facilities, and lots of time and patience, to get results, and even then those results might not be as good as you want.
I wouldn't discount an AC (as previously mentioned on the thread), I have been desperate enough to use them too and have gotten useful answers and made safe progress because of it.

Very best of luck with him.

 

[DabDab]

Just to clarify, what would you class as a "true" competition horse? I know many I would consider serious horses and they all hack out perfectly well. The fact a horse is a "competition" horse has absolutely no bearing on wether it'll hack or not!

Yes quite. OP, you sound like you've got to a point with this horse where you just don't really know what to think anymore, in terms of either his motivations or where to go next, and I can imagine how frustrating that must be. Just a thought - have you ever trained your horse in a non competitive environment when you've walked him into a school or a ring away from others stood at the gate/around the arena and had the same reaction. If you could set up that sort or training situation it might give you more time to work through it without being in a ring with people staring.

 

[little_flea]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one little flea. I often find its the horses in no work that **** about the most. And I think most if not all eventers would say that hacking is an important part of getting horses fit. Infact event yard I worked on horses were hacked daily alongside other school work. Sorry getting a bit of track here op!

Well if it is important that the (event) horse in question hacks, then it is of course crucial that it does so safely and willingly, not arguing that! Just saying that it is not necessarily crucial for every horse to hack just for the sake of it, or for the sake of down-time. Nice if they can, sure - I just don't get the obsession that a Grand Prix competition horse should also be able to safely trot round the M25! Sorry for side tracking!

 

[Wheels]

I think the difference here is little flea that the horse in question freaks going into a comp and freaks out hacking too. People are suggesting the op hacks the horse to get him used to leaving others and to improve his confidence, using it as a training tool rather than to hack for the sake of it. If a GP horse doesn't hack then that's up to their owner / rider and I do agree that some comp horses just aren't ever going to make happy hackers but this horse isn't a gp horse because he is too inconsistent so what is wrong with hacking out to try and improve his confidence? One day he may indeed reach a good level of competition but at the moment this isn't happening.

It appears that the op has tried lots of different things to try and get over this problem but has not really been able to overcome the problem, a different approach is required IMO and whether I think using Sedalin to compete is right or wrong in this case doesn't matter, I actually don't think it will work or help

 

[TarrSteps]

Murphy himself famously didn't hack and he was an okay event horse.

It really is horses for courses. if you have a successful, valuable competition horse that doesn't hack safely and you're not particularly bothered, why would you take the risk? Many horses do not 'enjoy' hacking. If it's in their required job description then they need to suck it up (or find a new situation) but otherwise it's not essential. It depends what you mean by hacking, too. A private road on an estate, or quiet village or a forest trail is a long way from straight out onto a 60 zone in Surrey.

I think there might be something to getting this particular horse hacking as it seems to touch on the same issues and is something that could be worked on at home in the owner's own time. But if it's too dangerous then no good is being done.

 

[aimsymc]

Murphy himself famously didn't hack and he was an okay event horse.


Yeah there are always exceptions to the rule!
I Still stick by that most good comp horses will hack out to fitten up or relax, and I don't mean along the m25! Of course there are horses who don't hack and people who don't like too but I don't feel its anything to do with being a comp horse or not. Ok will **** up now lol

 

[DabDab]

I dont think people understand that aspect of a true competition horse,

This comment, whether it was intended or not, does read as if no 'true competition horse' would want to hack and I think it was that point was being disagreed with. I don't think the implication was that all competition horses should hack.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

I didn't mean it like that at all actually, my bad......what I meant was that SOME horses are very very competition/ show/ schooling minded, they live to show off and have almost tunnel vision where anything not *proper* work is pointless to the point of being quite ADHD when not doing that sort of work, eg my own CS. Tbh I know more dressage horses that don't hack we'll, than those that do, but that's another conversation and not what I meant here.

Personally I don't think hacking will help at this point in time.

My gut says the OPhas just not yet found the key, somedays she's close but others not quite so....and that's no criticism as I've been there myself.
Fiddle with tack, rugs, feed, routine. BEG or pay someone who works diff hours to bring him in earlier etc. with CS the tiniest things make such a diff, if his noseband or throat lash are 1 hole out he won't settle, if the saddle isn't just so he won't go, if he's cold or damp he's not happy at all.
I really would try egusin, and maybe a scoop of chaff prior to riding to try and rule out a sore tum.

 

[Kokopelli]

Have to say I agree with PS these sensitive horses are ridiculous and even the smallest change can upset them.

I know of a mare that sounds very similar to yours, rears/ bucks/ plunges and naps for England but jumps 1.40m with her eyes shut. Loads of riders tried including various top class pros and she was written off as dangerous which in all honesty she was with the wrong rider. Eventually someone came along who just clicked with her, firm enough to get her going but not too firm she got in a stress. She is now competing in 1.30m opens and consistently being placed ready to move up a level. She thrives on routine isn't fed much and stabled 24/7 as is worse with turnout. She doesn't hack alone or in company and she's fine with that. However, you put a different rider on her and you wouldn't even get her over a cross pole. Horses for courses.

It sounds harsh OP but is this really the horse you want? Or do you think with some professional help he could be? By the sounds of it you want to get out and compete and have fun (I don't blame you) is there any chance you could compete something else like a friends horse to take the pressure off a bit so you can work with his issues?

 

[DabDab]

I didn't mean it like that at all actually, my bad......what I meant was that SOME horses are very very competition/ show/ schooling minded, they live to show off and have almost tunnel vision where anything not *proper* work is pointless to the point of being quite ADHD when not doing that sort of work, eg my own CS. Tbh I know more dressage horses that don't hack we'll, than those that do, but that's another conversation and not what I meant here.

Personally I don't think hacking will help at this point in time.

My gut says the OPhas just not yet found the key, somedays she's close but others not quite so....and that's no criticism as I've been there myself.
Fiddle with tack, rugs, feed, routine. BEG or pay someone who works diff hours to bring him in earlier etc. with CS the tiniest things make such a diff, if his noseband or throat lash are 1 hole out he won't settle, if the saddle isn't just so he won't go, if he's cold or damp he's not happy at all.
I really would try egusin, and maybe a scoop of chaff prior to riding to try and rule out a sore tum.

No, when I reread it I thought you probably didn't mean it like that, ah well, that's the written word for you. I do tend to agree with you - often getting the management of a difficult horse as right as it possibly can be (in terms of being very well tailored to their whims) can give you that 'in' you need to begin to work through their problems. I think there might also be clues to be found in the dressage rider's training routine with the horse that seemed to work well.

 

[ellie_e]

He won't be going anywhere, he is not for sale, and I will not be throwing the towel in. A horse won't go well in lessons/ at home, in a collecting ring, then suddenly it's the rider fault as he's napping. If he went awfully most of the time, I could agree that we didn't click, I've had this problem with a horse, who my mother now owns, she loves him and to this day 10years later I still don't get him. This is a completely different situation.

 

[TarrSteps]

Valid points Kokopelli. Shutterfly, Salinero, Promised Land. . .the world is full of very successful athletes that just aren't very much fun. MOST top horses are not like that - a few are virtual beach donkeys - and it's even more important to not make the common mistake that just because a horse is difficult it must be 'good' - but there is definitely a subset. I know jumpers that don't get ridden between shows. Even I've had an event horse that always stood up in the box, a working hunter that couldn't warm up and a selection of other horses we let be so long as they did the job. Although I might add they DID do the job. This horse might be one of these, he might not. Odds are more likely he isn't but you never know. . .

 

[ellie_e]

Valid points Kokopelli. Shutterfly, Salinero, Promised Land. . .the world is full of very successful athletes that just aren't very much fun. MOST top horses are not like that - a few are virtual beach donkeys - and it's even more important to not make the common mistake that just because a horse is difficult it must be 'good' - but there is definitely a subset. I know jumpers that don't get ridden between shows. Even I've had an event horse that always stood up in the box, a working hunter that couldn't warm up and a selection of other horses we let be so long as they did the job. Although I might add they DID do the job. This horse might be one of these, he might not. Odds are more likely he isn't but you never know. . .

Funny you say this- when we competed in the area team sj, it was outdoors, and I did hardly any warm up, walked around the lorry park, had a little canter, as if I would while hacking, then popped 1 fence and came out, let him stand and graze, and took him straight in and cantered around the field before the first test. Maybe coincidence?

 

[Kokopelli]

That is a very similar warm up routine I did with Andy. We would hack out or mooch around the lorry park, have a trot or canter and pop a tiny fence then jump our round. This was to stop him boiling over though as he was a bit of a nutter when it came to jumping. It really is just finding what clicks for your horse. I wasn't suggesting throwing the towel in before, but sometimes you have just got to ask yourself are you enjoying it?

 

[ellie_e]

That is a very similar warm up routine I did with Andy. We would hack out or mooch around the lorry park, have a trot or canter and pop a tiny fence then jump our round. This was to stop him boiling over though as he was a bit of a nutter when it came to jumping. It really is just finding what clicks for your horse. I wasn't suggesting throwing the towel in before, but sometimes you have just got to ask yourself are you enjoying it?

YES completely enjoy him, I get frustrated when he won't go in and show what he can do, but every time I sit on him I learn something and smile. He's been past around and have had so many comments like ' you should sell him and get something that can do it' I don't know why you put up with it, blah blah blah, I put up with it because I want to be challenged and wouldn't enjoy riding a 'normal' horse. I just wish I had the answer with this one, I think maybe the warm up could be key, or lack of shall we say!

 

[TarrSteps]

For the record I did not say it's your FAULT and I'm sorry if that's how you took it. My only point was that there are horses in the world who are an awful lot of trouble and not everyone is in a position to deal with them the way they need to be dealt with.

Which is moot because, as you say, you have no intention of selling. The compromise is you may have to adapt much of your program to suit him and resign yourself to putting up with a lot of ****.

 

[ellie_e]

For the record I did not say it's your FAULT and I'm sorry if that's how you took it. My only point was that there are horses in the world who are an awful lot of trouble and not everyone is in a position to deal with them the way they need to be dealt with.

Which is moot because, as you say, you have no intention of selling. The compromise is you may have to adapt much of your program to suit him and resign yourself to putting up with a lot of ****.

Oh god yes we do and have put up with a lot, but to be honest, seeing his face over the stable every morning is totally worth it! And hopefully one day, he will be more consistant with his competing, he's come a long way from what I bought, a weedy, skinny, nutty 6yr old who was scared of his shadow, and would throw you off as soon as you sat on him. We just need this extra push to get there.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Sounds worth twiddling with warm up, doing virtually nothing bar a quick canter round.
Peopled we got fig off had a grade B they couldn't sit on in between shows, went on the walker, lunged and loose jumped,and at shows they hand walk for 20 mins, leg jockey up on the move, straight in to canter, over 2 or 3 fences and straight in the ring. Very successful but very tricky horse.

 

[ellie_e]

Sounds worth twiddling with warm up, doing virtually nothing bar a quick canter round.
Peopled we got fig off had a grade B they couldn't sit on in between shows, went on the walker, lunged and loose jumped,and at shows they hand walk for 20 mins, leg jockey up on the move, straight in to canter, over 2 or 3 fences and straight in the ring. Very successful but very tricky horse.

Agree, think on Saturday I will just walk him around, and take him straight into test, it's better to get in and through a whole test knowing marks will be effective due to lack of warm up than getting eliminated!

 

[weebarney]

Ooh I just remembered a little tip, after warming up don't sit on your horse outside the competition arena while waiting. I find that is the point the horse plants his feet and says, 'I'm not going in there!'. Keep moving around and get someone to have a word with a steward so you can just ride straight from collecting ring into the competition without having to hang around.

 

[siennamum]

You sound a bit like me with my gelding OP. I just love riding him, even though he is inconsistent and argumentative. Mine has a physical reason for some of his behaviour, but also like yours he learned to rear prior to me getting him.
I think once they realise that being on their back legs leaves the rider with no control and that threatening to rear can mean you take some of the pressure off - they will always have that in their arsenal if they don't want to work.
They may be insecure, but it's a vicious circle and you could get him confident and submissive one day and then something will trigger the napping and by intimidating his rider he will reinforce his own insecurity.

It's a huge effort IMO and sometimes I can't be bothered to get into a fight, so you really have my sympathy.
I am going to try and hunt mine this Winter, so will see how that goes.
Mine isn't stressed so wouldn't sedate him, he needs a rocket up the bum rather than sedating. I do find with it tho that a horse can fight off a couple of tubes if it is a bit anxious so a tiny bit is surely not going to make them zombielike.