Rising 3 year ridden at BEF show.

[windand rain]

There is obviously something wrong with the system when so many warmbloods are dumped on unsuspecting owners that havent the experience and who break very quickly due to inherent defects and too much too soon. How many times do we read on here about lame at 6 or PTS by 8 and this is a very small sample. Regardless of how it is done there is a percentage that is too high and probably compares to the racing industry

 

[Goldenstar]

I think it's really arrogant to produce such immature horses and claim it's fine. It's not. There is a huge amount of evidence to show that it's not and a huge amount of prematurely unsound (mentally & physically) horses to back this up.

I also think it's ignorant to assume its fine because of who the owners & producers are; that similar approaches are employed on the continent is also a flawed argument.

I find it really sad that people truly believe that this is ok, either because a) professionals do it or b) they've got anecdotal evidence from their own experience that a horse they produced from a young age was, in their opinion, fine and appeared to stay what they consider 'sound' to a good age.

Lovely horses - would have been perfectly adequate to see them shown in hand or on the lunge.

Well unless you have several years experiance of producing youngsters to a high level I think your views expressed here are arrogant and ignorant .
I also think that a lot of people have no idea how little (but regular work )a really good rider who specialises in starting these young but together youngstock will be doing .
These horses will probably be being ridden for twenty minutes a day even less .
Personally I always started my youngsters at three that's choice and again I really think we are better examining what we do and trying to do it better rather than getting in a lather about others .
Personally I never get how people expect seven year olds who can't canter a circle because they are 'young ' to develop their full athletic potential .

 

[popsdosh]

There is obviously something wrong with the system when so many warmbloods are dumped on unsuspecting owners that havent the experience and who break very quickly due to inherent defects and too much too soon. How many times do we read on here about lame at 6 or PTS by 8 and this is a very small sample. Regardless of how it is done there is a percentage that is too high and probably compares to the racing industry

If thats the case how come we seem to have bigger issues with broken horses in the UK than the continent? If its such a bad system how come we lag so far behind europe as far as breeding goes? Part of the answer is not palatable to riders over here and part lies in the fact we still buy those horses even though to some degree GB has become a dumping ground for their rubbish. Its not their fault for selling them its ours for buying them in the first place.

 

[Goldenstar]

There is obviously something wrong with the system when so many warmbloods are dumped on unsuspecting owners that havent the experience and who break very quickly due to inherent defects and too much too soon. How many times do we read on here about lame at 6 or PTS by 8 and this is a very small sample. Regardless of how it is done there is a percentage that is too high and probably compares to the racing industry

TBH while I see your point it's all down to the skill of the people to develop the horses .
But in my view to many horses are being breed from who are not carrying genes for long term soundness .
We have mares and I suspect stallions being used who have things like bone chips removed from joints when young going on to breed and it's a big mistake .
I would rather have a youngster bred out of a hunter that succumbed to a tendon injury at sixteen than a warmblood who had a bone chip removed at six.
And it's also about developing horses we have a bit of a knowledge gap and a lot of people who are producing these very able warmbloods without the best help .
It's actually easy to overwork a well but together warmblood when it's young because their balance is often so good .
I started my working life on a breaking yard and we were always told it should take you longer to tack the horse up than to work it which we did twice a day .
Of course that's little bit of an exaggeration but it's was to make a point the best way is training little and often .

 

[Cortez]

If thats the case how come we seem to have bigger issues with broken horses in the UK than the continent? If its such a bad system how come we lag so far behind europe as far as breeding goes? Part of the answer is not palatable to riders over here and part lies in the fact we still buy those horses even though to some degree GB has become a dumping ground for their rubbish. Its not their fault for selling them its ours for buying them in the first place.

Very good questions, and you are right not to go into the answers ;-) Horses last, or not, for three reasons: firstly, and most importantly, because of the way they are trained/ridden/managed; secondly because of the way they are built; and thirdly because of luck.

 

[stormox]

Hmmph. Wouldn't ever buy Irish again, after having my lovely Irish bred maxicob pts age 8 riddled with arthritis. Started too early.

No proof at all that it got arthritis due to being broken too early!!! I had a horse put down age 7 from coffin joint arthritis and he wasnt broken untill he was past his 5th birthday.
Just bad luck!

 

[hollyandivy123]

Very good questions, and you are right not to go into the answers ;-) Horses last, or not, for three reasons: firstly, and most importantly, because of the way they are trained/ridden/managed; secondly because of the way they are built; and thirdly because of luck.

i think some of problem is s people forget warmbloods mature late.

the change in working practice i think also has the potential for problems, not so much straight line work, too much on a bend and on a surface. Also with the rise in horse walkers we are seeing an increase in effectively repetitive strain injury with OCD joints etc, this is only my opinion but i have never felt comfortable with young horse being put on a small circle and too fast.

 

[Casey76]

I do love the hypocrisy of HHO.

Just because this is a professional producer it is OK for them to ride a 2yo old colt, but if a member here even thinks about sitting on their 2yo they get trounced.

The colt in the video had been under saddle for 5 weeks, and yet he is already been ridden in a fairly advanced frame. Yes he was a wibbly-wobbly youngster, but why put that amount of pressure on his young brain?

As for conditioning... how much long reining and/or lunging has he done on those immature joints to have the muscle tone in order to correctly support a rider?

BTW - those German WBs which are started in much the same way - are considered "spent" at 8 years old.

 

[Goldenstar]

I agree about walkers .
And I also think they tend to be used to replace walking hacking which is time consuming and more difficult than it used to be in many places .
I think that walking hacking was very good conditioning for youngsters .

 

[stormox]

In the USA the reining horses are doing skidding halts and spins at 2 years. This cant be good for them either!!

But I do think there has to be a compromise, we wouldnt leave educating our children in sport, or learning, until they were 15!!!

Similarly leaving a horse til 5 or 6 to break might mean it was physically mature, but mentally already too set in its ways.

 

[Tiddlypom]

No proof at all that it got arthritis due to being broken too early!!! I had a horse put down age 7 from coffin joint arthritis and he wasnt broken untill he was past his 5th birthday.
Just bad luck!

No direct proof of cause and effect in his case, no. Alas, I do know of several folk though who have had similar experiences to mine with Irish bred types, who had been hunted through their 3yo season over there. They simply didn't make old bones.

Nearly gave up horses altogether after him, I was heartbroken, but have now got an English bred IDx with impeccable upbringing and known history from birth .

I like to back 31/2 yos in the summer after a good period of long lining, ride away in straight lines for 20 mins or so a day then turn away over the winter, bring back into work at 4.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

i think some of problem is s people forget warmbloods mature late.

No they don't. Late maturing breeds and early maturing breeds are a myth.

Dr Bennett's 'Ranger' article on equine maturing rates is very clear on this point.

 

[Goldenstar]

Three yo's hunting is a disaster for the horse .

 

[Cortez]

BTW - those German WBs which are started in much the same way - are considered "spent" at 8 years old.

By whom? Most competition horses are only getting going by 8, ALL dressage GP horses are older than that.........where are you getting your information from? And if you think the horses being shown are in an "advanced" frame your eye needs educating, anything built correctly uphill will hold itself better than something with an incorrect neck, if properly ridden.

 

[ycbm]

By whom? Most competition horses are only getting going by 8, ALL dressage GP horses are older than that.........where are you getting your information from? And if you think the horses being shown are in an "advanced" frame your eye needs educating, anything built correctly uphill will hold itself better than something with an incorrect neck, if properly ridden.

There was a long term study done of NZ and German dressage horses. Median length of career was five years from first competitive outing.

The study also found that the earlier the first competitive outing, and particularly the earlier they won, the longer the career. Though all that probably means is that the really good ones are the ones that are best suited to the job.

 

[ycbm]

If thats the case how come we seem to have bigger issues with broken horses in the UK than the continent?

Do we?

Anecdote time I have owned three continental warm blood horses each by a GP sire and parentage on both sides of high class.

One was put down at ten having become paralysed with wobblers that he was born with.

One had kissing spines operated on and a short time later started fitting and was put down at eight.

One was cold backed in winter and refused to jump at all. I sold him as a non jumper age five and he passed a five star vet. But in retrospect, I'd be very surprised if he did not also x ray with kissing spines.



I'd like to see some proof that continental horses are any sounder than British ones.

 

[crabbymare]

There was a long term study done of NZ and German dressage horses. Median length of career was five years from first competitive outing.

The study also found that the earlier the first competitive outing, and particularly the earlier they won, the longer the career. Though all that probably means is that the really good ones are the ones that are best suited to the job.

thats very possibly true. but. did the study take into account the fact that many stallions will have a short competitive career to prove themselves and then only be used at stud having "retired" sound and also that mares are often thought of as professional broodmares and will do a couple of seasons out competing and then be used to breed from? I would be interested to know how many of the survey horses that had short careers were retired unsound as opposed to taking up stud duties or being sold abroad and all records then lost due to other countries not updating the german fn and in nz its also possible that the horses were raced first and would possibly be hard to compare due to the very different way of keeping the horses

 

[ycbm]

It was a comprehensive study that took account of sex, and also directly compared Hannoverians competing in NZ and Germany over a very long time period. You can find a summary if you Google it, I can't get the full study without paying for it.

 

[amandaco2]

They are not two, they are probably 3 months shy of being three year olds. ....

sooo..... if they are a few months off being 3 years old, they are two then?

 

[Cortez]

sooo..... if they are a few months off being 3 years old, they are two then?

There is a big physical difference between being, say, 2 years and 1 month (as in just 2), and being 2 years and 10 months, (i.e. rising 3). The calendar date is arbitrary; the physicality of the horse is what is to be evaluated. I have, once, broken a 2-off year old for a client, and would not do it again as the horse was much too babyish IMO. The local western trainers, as well as any TB trainers, would laugh as they routinely start horses before their 2nd birthdays.

Look, no one is going to influence the dyed-in-the-wool "never break a horse until it is 4/5/6" advocate, any more than anyone is going to talk us people that have always broken 3 year olds with no ill effects out of doing so. What I would ask is that experience in these things should perhaps be allowed to have its say in amongst the theoretical concerns of people who are simply repeating a received wisdom without any actual practical engagement.

 

[amandaco2]

I think looking at a horse, you cannot tell its 'ready' it may look muscled and nicely mature but underneath the growth plates will be at the same/similar stage to anything else at 2/3/4. its very interesting reading how long it takes for the skeleton to fully develop.
personally I think 4 is fine to start backing, I wouldn't want to do it earlier.
where is the evidence a horse is 'mentally set in its ways' if you leave it a year longer in the field??
I can see a benefit in doing inand showing and letting a youngster see the world, wearing its tack etc- but for the sake of 12months longer playing in the field, id sooner see them actually backed at 4 myself.

 

[madlady]

Erm, they've produced some of the top GP horses in Europe? I think you can be assured that they do, actually, know what they are at....

I used to back all my young WB's at rising three, did it for 15+ years and never had problems. Out of a couple of hundred there were two that I left for another year as they just wern't mature enough, but everything else went along sweetly, and many made it into FEI levels. It is the culture in the UK to leave everything to "mature"; in other places they merrily break horses at 3. I have no problem with it, IF the people doing the training are experienced enough to use judgement in the amount of work that the youngsters are capable of doing.

It's all well and good saying that horses have been produced this way for 'x' years and that they are perfectly capable of what they are being asked to do but just because they are capable of it doesn't make it right - given all the new evidence that we have nowadays on when joints and and growth plates are fused (etc etc) I would have hoped that, by now, the upper echelons would have backed off a little on the amount of work that is done with youngsters. I suppose that is the difference though between individual owners and a massive commercial concern.

Would it really harm them that much financially if they just waited another 6 months? It would benefit the horses.

 

[hollyandivy123]

No they don't. Late maturing breeds and early maturing breeds are a myth.

Dr Bennett's 'Ranger' article on equine maturing rates is very clear on this point.

Sorry for using slang, i meant most people think that most horses are fully developed at 4yr ish.

This article states that horses are not mature until about 6yrs old give or take a bit. it was quite interesting to see there were sequential changes of over the leg and skeleton at which the growth plates convert to bone which takes from 9 months to 3.5 years depending how far up the leg you are. didn't realise this.

there is an interesting article about feeding foals and OCD, where they found correlation with increased lesions when concentrates are fed,

Impact of feeding and housing on the development of osteochondrosis in foals—A longitudinal study, the lead author is Luis Mendoza. to summaries

• This study focused on the evolution of OC related to the environment during the period from 6 months (after weaning) till 18 months.
• Horses not presenting OCD during the first months of life and fed with concentrates had a trend to develop osteochondrosis lesions.
• Horses positive to OCD at the first examination (6 months) and fed without concentrates (paddock, or just hay or roughage) had higher probabilities of recovering than those fed with concentrates.
• Environment conditions may define the evolution of osteochondrosis.


maybe we need to reevaluate early feeding of young stock? but i think this disease is very complicated and not just due to one trigger, possible a genetic element as well.

 

[nikkimariet]

Nothing bad to see here? Horse is ridden in a basic trot and a very open canter, and is plainly not struggling. Why is everyone getting in such a state?

Yep.

I'm not saying I think it's right, I'm not saying I think it's wrong, I refuse to get dragged into it.

But I was there and I did watch. Won't be the introduction to ridden life for my future youngsters but please don't cry horse abuse or neglect.

 

[nikkimariet]

There is a big physical difference between being, say, 2 years and 1 month (as in just 2), and being 2 years and 10 months, (i.e. rising 3). The calendar date is arbitrary; the physicality of the horse is what is to be evaluated. I have, once, broken a 2-off year old for a client, and would not do it again as the horse was much too babyish IMO. The local western trainers, as well as any TB trainers, would laugh as they routinely start horses before their 2nd birthdays.

Look, no one is going to influence the dyed-in-the-wool "never break a horse until it is 4/5/6" advocate, any more than anyone is going to talk us people that have always broken 3 year olds with no ill effects out of doing so. What I would ask is that experience in these things should perhaps be allowed to have its say in amongst the theoretical concerns of people who are simply repeating a received wisdom without any actual practical engagement.

Agree with you again Cortez.

I've seen more mature 2yo's than 5yo's recently. I know of one rising 3yo that looks like a 15hh horse rather than a baby. But the 4yo it's in a field with looks younger and much weaker!

Similarly, these rising 3yo's were in a better place for work than Fig was when he came to be having been let down off the track as a 7yo!

 

[amandaco2]

Agree with you again Cortez.

I've seen more mature 2yo's than 5yo's recently. I know of one rising 3yo that looks like a 15hh horse rather than a baby. But the 4yo it's in a field with looks younger and much weaker!

Similarly, these rising 3yo's were in a better place for work than Fig was when he came to be having been let down off the track as a 7yo!

The difficulty I have with this, is no one can tell how mature a horse is inside by looking at it. they can look a mature shape in term of muscle, but vital growth plates aren't fused and you cannot tell this simply by looking at a horse.
There are 3yr old who look more mature and ready Tha 7 yr olds but inside the 3yo is still only at a 3yo stage of development

 

[ljohnsonsj]

These people are professionals producing horses to the top level of the sport. The horse probably has only been backed and riding 4-5 weeks, but as very experianced riders and producers are producing very high quality horses who are turned out to a high standard it all looks much more 'together' than it is.

The horse is in it's 3rd year, very much ready for work with a pro

 

[Cortez]

One of the very large establishments I worked at X-rayed forelimbs and hocks before starting work with their 3 year olds...and it is quite possible to see "open" knees quite plainly (from the outside) if you know what are looking at.

Fun fact: human skeletons are not fully mature until about 23!

 

[Shadowdancing]

I agree with the person who said we'd be jumping all over an amateur who posted on here that they were prepping their 2 yr old horse for a basic show under saddle, but seem to just accept a professional doing the same? Doesn't seem right?

It's not acceptable to me but that's just based on what I've seen myself over the years. Among my friends and associates who have bought and owned continental bred warmbloods- it's not gone well. They've all had to be put down before age 15 due to unsoundness in varying forms. Only worse profile in my personal network is ex-racers. Owners of both have blamed 'too much too young' in conjunction with their vets.

 

[ester]

What makes 3yo an arbitrary date when its ok to back a horse as horses are individuals . The way the continental system has worked for all time is early maturing horses have always come to the top as the grading system promotes that because slower maturing horses cannot be graded. Its the same issue you get in schools that older children within a cohort will always have a developmental advantage. So the grading system will always benefit the more mature and forward within a cohort for future breeding. I have bred horses that have been backed and ridden from 2.5 to over 4 every one is individual . The other thing to put in the mix those going forward for grading are colts which always tend to be more forward and better developed.
I am surprised Lynn is getting such a hard time but then she doesnt always help herself as the dressage horses seem to have been singled out. There was at least one if not two SJ 3yos that were jumping which although they would need to be(for their grading) rather surprised me there.

I only used 3 as the point to work the discussion about age around because that seems to be the trigger point that people aren't comfortable with along with those insisting that technically the horse is 3, when technically by any measure he is not yet.

Thanks crabby mare and others re the licensing specifics it seems a shame that in her list lynne didn't include and this horse was backed 4 weeks ago and has done 20mins every other day since. Because even in previous discussions it is clear that many think these horses have been under saddle for months when that doesn't seem to be the case