Royal Canin - good or bad??!?

[quirky]

On the odd dry food threads I have read, Royal Canin always seems to be one of those that is classed as one of the better ones.

Well, on this website, it is given 1 star rating, so it is right up there with Wagg, Bakers and the like .
1 star is the lowest rating and 6 star is the top.

So, looks like a change of feed may be in the offing .

www.dogfoodanalysis.com

 

[Kellys Heroes]

RC - great for prescription diets I knew of quite a few animals who HAD to be fed on a certain RC prescription diet but I wouldn't put mine on it as normal feed. Its very expensive and from what I've heard, seems very bland. There is a high level of protein in it (so unsuitable for my GSD). Then again, I tend to believe that dogs do well on different feeds as they are all different themselves - we feed ours on Chappie - its been slated over and over but its the only food thats taken the liking of our GSD, has low protein and is suitable for my Goldie too to keep the weight off her. They started life on Iams - much more expensive and didn't seem to make much difference to Chappie!
K x

 

[Fiagai]

Excellent stuff! Good protein sources used in ingredients. Have fed mine on it and had no problems. Buy the big (20 kg) bags they work out way cheaper and watch out for RC reps in petshops giving out discount vouchers.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

One to avoid, I'm told. Notexactlyquality ingreients. There are some very good dry foods out there, RC is never in the top 10. It may suit some dogs, but for the price, you can get James wellbeloved, Skinners, Arden Grange.

I'll look for the dog food review website on the dog forum and post it.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100914124340AADjPpa

 

[suzysparkle]

Ours are all on Royal Canin 4300 high energy food - you won't find this in shops. We get it delivered directly from them and it's a lot cheaper that way. They all do really well on it and we find it better than all the other premium brands that we've tried (and that's most of them). We do also feed raw meat and they get bones once a week for teeth cleaning!
Like every food it seems to suit some and not others.

 

[jasmine]

I feed Canin to the shibas, suits them all really well.

 

[shadowboy]

Tassy loved hers! Fed it to her for over a year and she had a lovely coat/skin etc we only stopped feeding it when we decided to only buy British- more for environmental reasons (OH works for the environment and I teach Geog so trying to make our lives more sustainable) so now feed Wafcol as feeds using British ingedients.

Only thing is a 15kg bag will set you back about £47 although we always managed to find it with £10 off either in PAH or Countrywide

 

[soloabe]

Honestly i think its crap.
Corn, wheat, corn and more wheat with the odd bit of "meat meal" thrown in.

 

[Fiagai]

Honestly i think its crap.
Corn, wheat, corn and more wheat with the odd bit of "meat meal" thrown in.

eh what is in it is a hell a lot better than most of them. Remember items are in order of percentage content.
e.g. Ingredients from RC "Indoor Puppy"....

Brown rice, chicken meal, brewers rice, chicken fat, wheat gluten, chicken, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), natural chicken flavor, anchovy oil, dried egg powder, soya bean oil, sodium silico aluminate, potassium chloride, fructo-oligosaccharides, sodium tripolyphosphate, dried brewers yeast extract etc.....

 

[SusieT]

Am I the only one concerned that people are getting their information on how to fed their dog from yahoo answers and 'dog food' website run by non qualified (as far as I can see) 'forum experts'?
There are nutritionists out there, your vet is a good place to start to find more information, although i agree not all will know their stuff. Anything can be written on those sites, true or false!

 

[KarynK]

eh ....

Brown rice, chicken meal, brewers rice, chicken fat, wheat gluten, chicken, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), natural chicken flavor, anchovy oil, dried egg powder, soya bean oil, sodium silico aluminate, potassium chloride, fructo-oligosaccharides, sodium tripolyphosphate, dried brewers yeast extract etc.....

Now I'm afraid that if I had a puppy I can safely say none of that list apart from the Chicken meal (rendered meat) [fed raw of course] would get anywhere near it's menu or mouth!

Firstly Rice is the biggest ingredient which brings me onto the unnatural feed content for dogs = Rice, Wheat Gluten (WHY???), Sugar beet, Soya oil and the additives silico aluminate, potassium chloride, fructo-oligosaccharides, sodium tripolyphosphate, dried brewers yeast

Then there is the chicken fat - fine raw but cooked it is believed to have a role in Corneal Dystrophy. I would also ask why do you need chicken flavour, could it be that there is not enough chicken on it to taste?

So why feed something where most of the ingredients are both cooked and unnatural when you can trot down to your local Butcher or Chicken processing plant and buy raw meaty bones all fresh and of human grade, all natural and from the butcher mostly locally sourced, that would have been incinerated and often for a fraction of a sack of this?
In my view no contest.

 

[quirky]

Am I the only one concerned that people are getting their information on how to fed their dog from yahoo answers and 'dog food' website run by non qualified (as far as I can see) 'forum experts'?
There are nutritionists out there, your vet is a good place to start to find more information, although i agree not all will know their stuff. Anything can be written on those sites, true or false!

It was a nutritionist who pointed me in the direction of the website. She said not to treat it as de facto but it was a good starting point to rank foods and get an idea what sat where in terms of quality.
Funnily enough, she won't recommend a dry food, she recommends a raw diet. She appreciates this isn't for everybody though and gives people the tools to research what food they think may best suit their dog.
I have also found vets don't necessarily recommend a food, they have said in the past, feed dry but that is specific as they have got.

Thanks for your answers one and all .

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I did my research after my dog died of cancer last year. Yes, I looked at websites and decided on Orijen if I need kibble (rarely). Given raw is as unprocessed as possible, then that's what I feed. I honestly think that a lot of vets are clueless about nutrition and are sponsored by a company sometimes. I won't buy what they have in the surgery. I would not feed RC, looking at the ingredient list: unless a named protein heads it, why would you even consider it, unless your dog doesn't tolerate high protein.

I do not rely on websites and forums, I make a decision based on what appears to be best for my dogs. Given the link for the carcinogenic ingredient in Bakers was in the forum of 'unqualified people', I'm quite glad I go on there, not that I've ever fed Bakers.

 

[Fiagai]

The RC puppy one was given as an example only - its a diet formulated for pups. Lots of others in this range start with a known protein source etc depending on age, breed etc. I have looked at and tried alot of other feeds and RC is generally top of the list when it comes to ingredients (go take a look at some other ready available brands!). As kibbles go they are quite good.

Re feeding dogs meat only - not all dogs do well on this diet. I have a JRT who for reasons known only to himself will choose carbohydrate over protein nine times out of ten.

Yes wild dogs do eat raw meat but then they have not been selected breed for thousands of years. Some dogs may need other diets.

 

[EAST KENT]

Yes wild dogs do eat raw meat but then they have not been selected breed for thousands of years. Some dogs may need other diets.

Cannot think of ANY breed selectively(?) bred for thousands of years!

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I can't imagine any dog not doing well on meat Given a choice, my dogs eat wood, rabbits, poo, anything. They don't get a choice because they're domesticated so get fed by me.

I don't know how anyone can claim that RC is one of the better foods. I wouldn't use any commercial brand from the supermarket and I would research any processed kibble and there are lots out there at the same kind of price asRC that don't contain cereal or what I consider to be truly poor ingredients that I wouldn't give my dog.

If your dog is fine on it, great, but please don't try to tell me it's one of the better foods available. Not as epically awful as Bakers, but not top of the range.

 

[SusieT]

I think when you use yahoo answers to demonstrate your point your arguement that you don't use such sites to make your decisions is somewhat flawed.
If you are concerned about a food, go an find a nutritionist and discuss it with them, get several opinions if you want. Anything can be written on the internet, conspiracy theories and all about the 'big bad companies' and one persons belief (right or wrong) can very quickly become dominant on the internet if they shout loud enough for long enough...

 

[KarynK]

The RC puppy one was given as an example only ...

Re feeding dogs meat only ... I have a JRT who for reasons known only to himself will choose carbohydrate over protein nine times out of ten...

Yes wild dogs do eat raw meat but then they have not been selected breed for thousands of years. Some dogs may need other diets.

But you gave it as an example? So was that not what you wanted to show, did you want to put up another example perhaps? It does not really matter if a protein is a principle source as the other ingredients remain and just as in humans but more so in dogs, excessive consumption of modern varieties of starchy grains, particularly wheat is bad news.

I never said meat only!!! Feeding meat only whilst infinitely better than some feeds on the market is not good enough and will bring problems of it's own. Raw meaty bones from a variety of animals are a natural feed for dogs, with offal and eggs. This diet will provide ALL the nutrients that a dog needs in a bio available form with no additives preservatives or flavourings. At no point ever in the wild would a dog eat grain, rice or potatoes or sugar beet, with or without the sugar!

Of course a dog will choose Carbs they are addictive and foods that contain them are often full of sugar and salt. How many Kids would eat a meal from any fast food chain over a home cooked meal every day if given the chance for the same reason!

Oh not the dogs have evolved thing again, this argument is so poorly thought out it makes my teeth itch. You cannot tell a wolf from a Chinese crested genetically and commercial dog food has only been around for at most 80 odd years. If a Panda's digestive system and teeth have not changed in thousands of years despite eating only bamboo how on earth can any breed of dog have changed enough to not tolerate raw meat and bones in 80 years??

Yes some dogs have trouble adjusting at first and a detox has to be expected and given the time to do it's work. But I have found in the 13 years of feeding raw that the longer a dog has been fed grain the longer and more obvious the detox is and this gets worse as more generations of grain feeding pass, so give it a few more generations feeding the dog grain as a principle source of nutrition and I strongly believe we will have very serious problems indeed and some dogs may be born beyond help.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I think when you use yahoo answers to demonstrate your point your arguement that you don't use such sites to make your decisions is somewhat flawed.
If you are concerned about a food, go an find a nutritionist and discuss it with them, get several opinions if you want. Anything can be written on the internet, conspiracy theories and all about the 'big bad companies' and one persons belief (right or wrong) can very quickly become dominant on the internet if they shout loud enough for long enough...

Sigh. I used the yahoo thing purely as a quick example.

Like I said, I did a ton of research, some of it, shock, horror, on here (please tell karynk, katielou etc that they don't know what they're talking about, this would make me lol-I think they know plenty) then chose the purest feed I could find for dry but mostly feed raw. If you're telling me that just because I researched on the Internet and used that to help me choose Orijen, then your reasoning is flawed, I think.

Regardless of my sources, the ingredient list does not lie. I won't feed something til I know what's in is, as far as I can reasonably discover.

 

[KarynK]

Susie T

The things you have to remember when putting your faith solely in proven research is that:

1, research is expensive, time consuming and often person power intensive. Funding for research is often sourced by commercial companies and therefore it reflects their needs which will not always be those of what is best for dogs but more is our dog food better than either the old recipe or our competitors. What they will not do and who can blame them is spend money researching things that could possibly out perform their own product, they after all have shareholders!

2, If research is not funded then it will probably be part of a dissertation or doctorate, in which case careful consideration will have been given to being able to substantiate the theory behind it. It is unlikely that a student with so much at stake will pick too controversial or too complex a subject nor rightly so would their tutor/mentor guide them that way.

3, Only a certain number of variables are considered in research so you would be unlikely in a study for the cause of say Corneal Dystrophy that you think may have a genetic link, to also look at various diets and their affects as well. It would be too complicated and there would be too much going on to pinpoint the cause of the problem.

4, People that feed raw cannot afford to fund research to prove that their diet is as effective as they claim, they don't have shareholders but can see and describe the benefits of their " anecdotal " evidence.

Put these together with the Lies, damn lies and statistics and you have a situation in that if you did not consider substantial anecdotal studies and experiences there would be very little forward thinking or innovation in this world just that which is mostly profit driven!

I have found that all but a few nutritionists in canine circles including a lot of vets lack in depth knowledge of the wild canine, its choice of menu, dietary requirements and how it’s system processes it’s diet, this I think is a big knowledge gap that needs to be studied. They tend to rely on giving ultra safe information and will not consider anything other than scientifically produced feeds, even when proof that other diets can work is looking at them wagging its tail!!! That is a crying shame.

So where are people like Cinnammontoast who are prepared to look outside the box supposed to look for guidance and inspiration in creating the best possible feeding system other than experiences and anecdotal evidence??

That is something my dogs can thank me for as well as rescuing them! The effects of the diet I choose to feed stares back up at me every day, after considerable research and experience I can sleep happily at night knowing I do the very best for my dogs nutritionally and it costs me about £5 a month for 2 dogs and my dogs and others like them do not have a carbon footprint bigger than the car, in fact, mine must be in credit!!

Besides there is nothing like the satisfaction you get watching your dog crunching and enjoying something it evolved to eat rather than a bowl of cereal with meat day after day.

My Dogs Xmas dinner!!

 

[soloabe]

eh what is in it is a hell a lot better than most of them. Remember items are in order of percentage content.
e.g. Ingredients from RC "Indoor Puppy"....

Brown rice, chicken meal, brewers rice, chicken fat, wheat gluten, chicken, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), natural chicken flavor, anchovy oil, dried egg powder, soya bean oil, sodium silico aluminate, potassium chloride, fructo-oligosaccharides, sodium tripolyphosphate, dried brewers yeast extract etc.....

Ok i will change that seeing as the US ingredients are different to GRAINS GRAINS GRAINS Yuk.

And the meat is including water which gets cooked out during the kibble making process so it puts it much further down the list.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I must thoroughly applaud karynk. Along with others, she reassured and guided me and I've referenced her on other forums. We can't all be wrong! There are too many of us raw feeding because we weren't happy with the ingredients and effects of commercial food.

I'd love to meet up with my dogs' litter mates and see if there's a difference, but as I doubt that will happe, I will carry on feeding tasty whole rabbits, unprocessed meat and bones in the security that I am doing the right thing.

 

[Fiagai]

K - thanks for that. From your post I see that you are obviously very passionate about canine nutrition. I did pick up from your post that you fed meat only! I know one dog that has a diet of offal meat etc and it is the most flatulant animal I have ever met. I am not saying this dog serves as an example of all dogs fed this diet just it appears to cause him to be rather noxiously gaseous!

Similarly the example given served to illustrate the kinds of ingredients used. To verify the ingredients for individual formulations it is necessary to check out the nutrional specifications online etc. Btw RC is not available as a supermarket purchase. I cannot say its the top one however RC generally appears to rate well in the types and amount of protein contained in the bulk of the ingredients.

Unprocessed carbohydrate cannot be compared to fast food. Wild carnivores will eat the stomach contents / crops of prey to help provide a balanced diet. Foxes will eat fruit and other edible wild foods.
The JRT I mentioned will also source fruits and vegetables in the same vein. I feed a varied diet and my experience with RC is a personal one compared to other kibbles. The main with domestic dog breeds is that we have been feeding them everything and anything over several milennia since they were first domesticated. And they appear to have survived quite well.

 

[s4sugar]

RC would not be my first choice but it does suit a lot of dogs & their owners.

I've just had a flick through some of the review sites and have they realised that the manufactures have cottoned on to how they rate feeds?

Some companies are masters of label manipulation - just read an IAMS bag!

If you split the cereal between several different grains it comes below the meat in the ingredients list.
The more you add the further down they go.
If the only cereal is rice, which is less likely than most to cause problems, it will be higher up than the meat and many in the UK use a single protein source as this is easier to keep high up the lists and it is easier to know which to avoid.
Some reviews downgrade any feed with a single protein source.

Personally I find it abhorrent to rear animals to be killed specifically for pet food when there are plenty of animal parts that I find unappetising that can make up a good proportion of my dog's & cats food.

I've been to the Pedigree factory and some smaller manufacturers. Most worked withh fresh or frozen meat & fish.

My favourite was a small concern who had a contract with a company making oven ready chilled chicken products - kievs etc - and the dog food often reeked of garlic. He had to cease when the laws changed as he could not give an accurate percentage of ingredients -he knew what was in the broken chicken escalopes etc but not how much was coating.

 

[KarynK]

I diet based on tripe is not good news it is not the best form of offal for variety nutrition but it has it’s place within a balanced diet, yes some foods which are rich will make them windy, pork does with mine which is why I do not feed it often and tend to give it to them when I wont be around!!! But what it does not do is make them loose. My dogs eat some very skanky food at times and there is no ill effect.

The most important thing that is forgotten when it comes to modern canine nutrition is that dogs have NO nutritional requirements for carbohydrate at all. Unlike us they can manufacture within their bodies the vitamins we have to have from fruit and veg without which we would become ill and die.

All a dogs dietary requirements are met by muscle meat, bone, and offal. The proteins/amino acids in these feed sources are high quality ones that they have evolved to eat they are a rich source and easily broken down by acid. This is why dogs do not browse their food they gorge and rest. A dog has teeth for ripping, it cannot chew properly as it’s teeth have no flat surfaces and there is no sideways jaw movement, the gut is acidic and fast, it has no need to stew it’s food to break down plant cell walls. Poorer quality plant amino acids are no match for the real thing but of course they are cheaper.

Yes some wild dogs will eat prey stomach but I think that you will find that those that do are the omegas with the apha’s taking the choice cuts. I would question the value of a prey’s stomach in the winter, animals killed by wolf packs in harsh winter conditions will have nothing more than branches and liken in them, there is no value in this for a canine. Equally dogs may eat fruit and veg, they are opportunists, but they can get nothing from them without help, in order to get the nutrients the veg must be cooked or liquidised or have been through or partially through another animal, omnivore or herbivore. Some raw feeders feed veg in small amounts, I do as mine like it but others don't and their dogs are just as healthy as mine.

I know that ingredients vary in various dog foods, but the underlying problem with most convenience dogs foods is that grains or some other kind of cheap bulk is used. A dogs natural fibre is bone, claws, hair and teeth, without those you need to replace it. Most dog foods contain more grain than I would dare feed my horses, so much so that New Forest ponies eat dog *****!!

The amount of protein is very deceptive, shoe leather has a protein content, the labelling often tells you very little of the protein source breakdown. If you feed convenience dog food and I appreciate many do and it suits them, I would have a whole list of questions for the manufacturer if they didn’t reply satisfactorily I would walk away, because if they won't tell me it's not going down my dogs throat!!

carbs in the form it is found in modern dog food IS absolutely what is found in fast food, grains, rice, potatoes???

I think you will find that prior to 80 years ago dogs were fed bones and table scraps, human grade waste material, for millennia humans would not waste time money and effort cooking their grain staples for their dogs when they were barely scratching their own living! Dogs survive because they are good at it, a dog will probably live on pretty much wheat alone, where a cat will die, BUT there are consequences to that and some will be very serious.

Why thank you cinammontoast it's my pleasure!!!

 

[shadowboy]

I've seen this debate many a time and I still hold to the fact that what works for one dog will not work for another. Tassy picked raw pheasant out of her bowl many a time when we have tried feeding it to her- and will not eat offal type ingeredients although happily eats minced meats. Now we cannot afford to buy meat in the quanities needed for two large dogs - we have the tiny freezer space at the top of a waist high fridge. Raw is not an option for us. We have found kibble with an egg/sardines/raw fish/minced meat topping the way works best for us. What we are interested in is healthy happy dogs who are active and of a good weight- no dodgy poo/stinky breath and scurfy coat. RC worked well for us, but being that the ingredients are shipped around the world we went for a British based product Salmon and Potato from Wafcol - easy to store in the pantry and afforable with a healthy happy dog.

 

[NOISYGIRL]

Dunno if I'm being thick but the couple I looked at only had one review per product or am I looking at the wrong thing ? You can't base it on that

 

[SusieT]

Why is there a view that 'forum experts' are more able to sift through information than 'real' people that you know/can meet face to face?
You can write anything on a public forum, and whilst you say you have done extensive research you then admit a lot of it has been on here, through viewing posts by certain members. And as I said before, those who shout the loudest are not always right (or, conversely, wrong)

karynk-regarding proven research, that was not the point I was making, more that it is far too easy to get suckered into internet opinions which can be, frankly, rubbish. And often it is the minority who have had a bad experience who will go and post about it online, whereas the majority who have a good experience just potter on with their lives without saying how good the way they do things is.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I said I did a lot of research, some of it on here. I 'admit'?! What? Am I under suspicion or being charged with something?!

What is the point of being able to access all the info on the internet and therefore why come on a forum if you don't believe the info contained within is valid, at least to some degree? If it can be backed up by others, even anecdotally, it must be worth the time/effort. Some of the info may be suspect and subjective, some is valid or verifies what I believe to be best for me/my animals. The raw is not something I did lightly.

To get back to the original thread issue, the point was that RC is not one of the best foods, given the ingredients on the bag/websites. Again, one of the top feeds with regard to the ingredient list is Orijen/Acana.

Unless you give the least processed thing you can, then you can't be sure of what is contained within any food. Even human grade meat is not perfectly fine, IMO, as it may well contain antibiotics etc.

Noisygirl: I wouldn't rely on reviews-they're very subjective. The only thing that can be relied upon is the detailed ingredient list.

 

[Vindaloo]

Both of mine are fed on it and look amazing. I am complimented often on the glossy coats even by the native 'haters' out here (no one likes a street dog, they have to be pedigrees or nothing).

I'm no expert on nutrition and would LOVE to feed raw but in this heat and with the options I have available Royal Canin is the best of the bunch (the alternatives are shipped over from thailand and I just don't fancy my chances on that). My dogs don't smell, have good teeth, firm poop and are fit and healthy (frantically touching wood as I type).

So it's a thumbs up from me Pepper and Bumble. x