SACKED

Not_so_brave_anymore said:
My initial reaction was "shit- I'm a teacher, and I have definitely slapped a pony with an open hand" (usually 0.3 seconds after said pony has taken a chunk out of me).

But, I haven't brought myself to watch the whole video, and it sounds like this was something of a sustained attack, not one slap? Also, the fact that someone thought to film this, and had the time to get their phone ready, makes me think she probably had form for behaving like this, and at least one person had been waiting to catch it on camera?
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I assumed a hunt sab had filmed it but I honestly can't remember how it came about now.
 
Birker2020 said:
Well I am only a minute taker who sat over 200 meetings for which a good third were about school environments. I can only explain it from my perspective and from my experience gained whilst in that position for nearly two years. I doubt that the

“Unacceptable professional conduct” is misconduct of a serious nature, falling significantly short of the standard of behaviour expected of a teacher.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...r_misconduct-the_prohibition_of_teachers_.pdf
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Which hitting a horse is not. You honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I hope the poor woman at the centre of this fiasco does take her employer to ET. IMO, with the facts that I have to hand (which might not be all of them), she would win, hands down.
 
Not_so_brave_anymore said:
Also, the fact that someone thought to film this, and had the time to get their phone ready, makes me think she probably had form for behaving like this, and at least one person had been waiting to catch it on camera?
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It was filmed by hunt saboteurs who routinely film even legal hunting.

ETA Already said, but I'm anti fox hunting and still think this is unacceptable.
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Roasted Chestnuts said:
Any parent could hit their child out of frustration. Should all children be removed because of what ‘might’ happen.

.
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We are not talking about her children though are we? We are talking about her role as teacher and the inference that the level of risk was assessed and for whatever reasons it was determined that she could no longer work in her role as teacher. We do not know if there were additional risks or not as we are not party to that information. But these decisions aren't taken lightly and the school would not be allowed to sack someone as a knee jerk reaction to a film or to parents without a full investigation having taken place.

I tried to explain about how POT worked and gave a random example to explain. Perhaps I should have chosen a better example, I just couldn't think of one at the time. At no point did I ever say this person who I do not know and have never met would/could/did hit a child. I have just explained how the system works and if you read the brochure I attached on an earlier post you would see that.
 
I'm a bit conflicted on this.

Her treatment of the horse was unjustified and stupid. it was stupid because not only were "animal rights activists" watching, but it was completely counter-productive. The loose horse had gone over to her to be caught and she responded by repeatedly smacking it round the face. Next time it gets loose it might not be so keen to be caught.

In many professions I don't think that video would affect your work. However, I can see how a school would have an issue. It's their reputation, but it's also the effect of the footage on the children and their relationship with their teacher. If 8 year old me had seen my teacher do that to a pony there is no way I would be respectful of her going forward. Because a child doesn't understand the frustration, worry, stress or anything else which might have caused her reaction to the horse.

I don't think school teachers are alone in this response to out of work conduct of this nature. In my industry too I expect if there were footage of me treating an animal that way it could be argued to be against my code of conduct, because it would affect the public's perception of me and/or my profession, even though my work is unrelated.

Ultimately, I can understand the decision but I can also see that it appears disproportionate when compared with the minimal hours of community service given to some animal abusers. The difference is, of course, that this is not a criminal sentence.
 
Birker2020 said:
You can hardly hold me accountable for speculation. This whole thread has been speculation throughout. I was just giving my perspective. :rolleyes:
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No it hasn't, OP told us that the woman involved was sacked. That is not speculation, it is fact. Certainly your posts have all been specualtion but of the rest posters either agreed with the dismissal or disagreed, neither of which are speculation. I'm afraid minute-taking does not qualify you to comment on the outcome of investigations.


As I said above, I can only specualte myself that she was employed in a private school,which does not work to STPCD.It is of course always possible that her private school contract has a clause about not hitting animals in full view of hunt-saboteurs but that does seem unlikely.
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
I'm afraid minute-taking does not qualify you to comment on the outcome of investigations.
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I didn't say it did. Its in the public realm and therefore I am entitled to give my opinion, like you have given your opinion and like everyone else on this thread have given their opinion.

I may have given the same opinion if I had not worked on a Position of Trust team. But with the knowledge I gained whilst working there for 2 years I understand more than the average lay person how these things work. I'm sorry if you disagree with 'the punishment not fitting the crime' but I expect experienced professionals with many many years experience will have risk assessed the situation and drawn the conclusion they have drawn. And there may or may not be additional reasons why they came to the conclusion they did, none of us can know. I have not speculated anymore than anyone else so please try to stop getting a rise out of me all the time because its getting increasingly boring and laborious.
 
I wouldn’t want her teaching my children, not because I would be concerned she would lose her temper and hit them, but because how she behaved does not meet my expectations of behaviour for a teacher who should be setting an example to children and young people. That is a major part of her job and is wholly relevant to why she has lost her job as a consequence of her actions.
 
Birker2020 said:
I didn't say it did. Its in the public realm and therefore I am entitled to give my opinion, like you have given your opinion and like everyone else on this thread have given their opinion.

I may have given the same opinion if I had not worked on a Position of Trust team. But with the knowledge I gained whilst working there for 2 years I understand more than the average lay person how these things work. I'm sorry if you disagree with 'the punishment not fitting the crime' but I expect experienced professionals with many many years experience will have risk assessed the situation and drawn the conclusion they have drawn. And there may or may not be additional reasons why they came to the conclusion they did, none of us can know. I have not speculated anymore than anyone else so please try to stop getting a rise out of me all the time because its getting increasingly boring and laborious.
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The thread and the posts are not about you, although you do seem determined to make it so! Other people, perhaps worth more experience of such events are also entitled to give their perspective, on the known facts.
 
On the face of it, despite this ladies awful behaviour, the punishment does seem too extreme for the crime. I however understand how this has played out and why the school didn’t feel they had any other option.

What none of us know however is this ladies disciplinary history or her general behaviour both at work and during the investigation. If that is squeaky clean then I’d lean towards it being a harsh punishment - but if she has ‘form’ it could be entirely appropriate?
 
FestiveG said:
The thread and the posts are not about you, although you do seem determined to make it so! Other people, perhaps worth more experience of such events are also entitled to give their perspective, on the known facts.
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You must be reading a different thread to me then. And I have not stopped anyone giving their perspective.

Are their any teachers or heads, remembering all you learnt during safeguarding training disagree with anything I have said? I stand to be corrected if I have said anything wrong although I am certain I have only given my opinion borne out of experience.
 
This was a sustained attack on an animal. Ok, I will say it: I have never carried out a sustained attack on any animal or person and I would have serious reservations about putting such a person in charge of any child or an animal of mine as they obviously have not got the self control to keep their anger within reasonable bounds. It is however dubious whether such a drastic decision as sacking is legal and appropriate. A warning and being put on notice that any further anger management problems would need to be addressed would have been a fairer response IMO.
 
I can see why the school sacked her. Her actions towards the horse cast serious doubt over her ability to control her temper. So whether that has ever translated into the classroom or not, as a teacher with sole charge of children I can see why that individual now can’t be completely trusted.

I would much rather safeguarding rules be harsher than too relaxed. Recent news stories would show that a lack of safeguarding can have terrible results ?
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
Which hitting a horse is not. You honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I hope the poor woman at the centre of this fiasco does take her employer to ET. IMO, with the facts that I have to hand (which might not be all of them), she would win, hands down.
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Yes Pearlsacarolsinger I also hopes this lady takes it to a Tribunal and I hope she wins. The whole situation has been blown out of all proportion.
 
Lammy said:
I can see why the school sacked her. Her actions towards the horse cast serious doubt over her ability to control her temper. So whether that has ever translated into the classroom or not, as a teacher with sole charge of children I can see why that individual now can’t be completely trusted.

I would much rather safeguarding rules be harsher than too relaxed. Recent news stories would show that a lack of safeguarding can have terrible results ?
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how completely ridiculous. Most of you commenting seem to have no experience of teaching or working with children. I do daily. For 45hrs a week. I have been frustrated, I have been annoyed, I have been up to my elbows in pee, poo and vomit, have been vomited on on several occasions. I have been assaulted by teenagers, I have been threatened by teenagers. None of this has driven me in my position of responsibility to hurt a child despite the fact I’ve reprimanded any number of horses in my over 30 odd years of life.

Smacking a horse doesn’t translate that you will hurt a child.
 
onemoretime said:
Yes Pearlsacarolsinger I also hopes this lady takes it to a Tribunal and I hope she wins. The whole situation has been blown out of all proportion.
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Genuine question, I am not being facetious. The fact is the woman has been filmed hitting and kicking a horse, regardless of the reasons why it happened. If you are saying that the whole situation has been blown out of all proportion, do you think that a teacher hitting and kicking a horse is an acceptable example of behaviour to set to children? Yes or no.
 
Upthecreek said:
Genuine question, I am not being facetious. The fact is the woman has been filmed hitting and kicking a horse, regardless of the reasons why it happened. If you are saying that the whole situation has been blown out of all proportion, do you think that a teacher hitting and kicking a horse is an acceptable example of behaviour to set to children? Yes or no.
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If you take that to its furthest extent then it means she must at all times only ever act in a way that is a good example to her pupils. Where would that stop? Could she go out and get massively drunk and make a fool of herself? Could she use foul language in public? I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of things we all might do at times which are far from a great example to set to a child but which would not impact in any way our ability to teach them. Surely?
 
Roasted Chestnuts said:
how completely ridiculous. Most of you commenting seem to have no experience of teaching or working with children. I do daily. For 45hrs a week. I have been frustrated, I have been annoyed, I have been up to my elbows in pee, poo and vomit, have been vomited on on several occasions. I have been assaulted by teenagers, I have been threatened by teenagers. None of this has driven me in my position of responsibility to hurt a child despite the fact I’ve reprimanded any number of horses in my over 30 odd years of life.

Smacking a horse doesn’t translate that you will hurt a child.
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But that isn’t reprimanding a horse in that video is it? That is a complete loss of temper, an absurd overreaction and her taking her frustration out on an animal. We’re not talking about a quick smack or controlled correction.

That is why I said reasonable doubt has now been cast over her own ability to control her temper in frustrating situations. And I think reasonable doubt is enough to terminate employment from a safe guarding point of view, I’m not saying she is likely to go and smack children in her care but the trust has been lost.

I have worked with children in the past though and now primarily work in a safeguarding role for vulnerable people so I can fully understand why this video has translated the way it has. People have lost jobs at my work for far less.
 
sbloom said:
If you take that to its furthest extent then it means she must at all times only ever act in a way that is a good example to her pupils. Where would that stop? Could she go out and get massively drunk and make a fool of herself? Could she use foul language in public? I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of things we all might do at times which are far from a great example to set to a child but which would not impact in any way our ability to teach them. Surely?
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But we aren’t talking about having a few too many on a Saturday night. We are talking about hitting and kicking a horse in public, which was filmed and has been viewed by millions. If people think that is an acceptable example of behaviour for a teacher to set children I’m genuinely interested to hear their reasoning.
 
sbloom said:
If you take that to its furthest extent then it means she must at all times only ever act in a way that is a good example to her pupils. Where would that stop? Could she go out and get massively drunk and make a fool of herself? Could she use foul language in public? I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of things we all might do at times which are far from a great example to set to a child but which would not impact in any way our ability to teach them. Surely?
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I have had to sign a document with work that I won't bring the company into disrepute on social media. I'm an engineer like so hardly any safeguarding issues and it wouldn't affect my ability to do my job, but yeah if I was filmed being a bellend or violent and it got around then I could absolutely lose my job over it. It would speak to general lack of judgement I guess.
 
Lammy said:
But that isn’t reprimanding a horse in that video is it? That is a complete loss of temper, an absurd overreaction and her taking her frustration out on an animal. We’re not talking about a quick smack or controlled correction.
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Exactly. A smack in the mouth for biting or any kind of reasonable physical correction (like some are trying to compare this to) would hardly get this kind of attention, would it?
 
Upthecreek said:
But we aren’t talking about having a few too many on a Saturday night. We are talking about hitting and kicking a horse in public, which was filmed and has been viewed by millions. If people think that is an acceptable example of behaviour for a teacher to set children I’m genuinely interested to hear their reasoning.
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I don’t think anyone has said it’s acceptable example of behaviour to set to children ?‍♀️

It’s vile behaviour. But does it automatically become a safeguarding issue? I’m not convinced.

The alcohol comparison is completely valid. A drunken night and bad behaviour on social media is equally not suitable for children. If you want to extrapolate that out to the school setting you could claim the teacher was a raving drunk and it’s a safeguarding issue.
 
smolmaus said:
Exactly. A smack in the mouth for biting or any kind of reasonable physical correction (like some are trying to compare this to) would hardly get this kind of attention, would it?
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I think we're all worried about where the line gets drawn, not that any of us thought that behaviour was acceptable. And at what point it warrants sacking, not that it should not be punished.
 
Lammy said:
But that isn’t reprimanding a horse in that video is it? That is a complete loss of temper, an absurd overreaction and her taking her frustration out on an animal. We’re not talking about a quick smack or controlled correction.

That is why I said reasonable doubt has now been cast over her own ability to control her temper in frustrating situations. And I think reasonable doubt is enough to terminate employment from a safe guarding point of view, I’m not saying she is likely to go and smack children in her care but the trust has been lost.

I have worked with children in the past though and now primarily work in a safeguarding role for vulnerable people so I can fully understand why this video has translated the way it has. People have lost jobs at my work for far less.
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And tribunals have forced employers to apologise and payout with less public proof. If this hadn’t been filmed the woman wouldn’t have been any less thought of. This is a very slippery slope that many of you are happy to stray down.
 
Roasted Chestnuts said:
Smacking a horse doesn’t translate that you will hurt a child.
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No it doesn't, of course it doesn't. But there is an element of assumed risk and that risk needs to be assessed in the school environment.

But it wasn't just a smack or a tap on the nose. From what I saw it was a full attack on a defenceless animal. And kicking a horse is never right in any circumstance.

Schools have a duty of care to take any concerns raised against staff seriously and respond promptly. This is regardless of who the person is, what position they hold or how long they've been involved with the school. They will probably also have a code of conduct which sets out the schools expectations and will set out boundaries. If an allegation of wrong doing is made then an investigation is conducted to find if a person was guilty of unacceptable professional conduct and/or conduct that may bring the profession into disrepute.

I'm sorry you think its an over reaction on the schools part but the woman in question knew what the repercussions would be. Its only the same if you were a policeman or policewoman, you would be expected to know how to behave in public.
 
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