Sad post - horses are such heart-breakers

[Marigold4]

I don't know if it will help OP, but I still manage to get a huge amount of joy and satisfaction from owning two retirees. Once the initial sadness about retiring him fades, you will hopefully find that sense of

Thank you and I hope so. Who knows, maybe it will even be a relief not to have to try and achieve any goals except keeping them happy.

 

[Marigold4]

see I could never do that as I would simply be killing an animal which could have a perfectly happy life ahead as a retiree for my own amusement. There is a big difference between horses retired at whatever age that are in pain and where PTS on welfare grounds may be the best option and those who are simply for one reason or another unrideable.
The latter can live perfectly happily, pain free in their normal state ie unridden.

I have never bought or acquired a horse without knowing that if it didn't work out as a riding horse I would retire it. Often that may be at only 5 or 6 but the horse would still be my responsibility to ensure the quality of it's life.
If I kept my horses at a livery yard then I would be looking at a retirement livery for that horse.

I'm sorry for the position you are in Marigold but well done for doing the best for your horses. I have had several in the early retirement pension scheme over the years. They have not suffered as a result of their retirement and in fact they seemed delighted with it.

Thanks for replying. He doesn't seem in any pain in the field - in fact he looks very happy. I enjoyed seeing them this morning asleep in the sun and not having to disturb their slumbers. I'm sure I'll get over losing riding and competing. Just have to make sure I don't read the "weekend plans" thread!

 

[Marigold4]

Sorry to hear about your youngster marigold. Youve evidently tried everything to find the cause of pain. What a journey that must have been, how disappointing.
You dont sound happy to have retirees, which is understandable in many ways...having the set-up and lifestyle to match retiring horses isnt easy.
I wonder if there is the possibility of re-homing as companions or for in-hand showing? Nice breeding does well for in-hand showing, and he’s so young, maybe you can find a inhand enthusiast who isn’t interested in riding? I’m presuming he’s fine without a rider? Something to consider maybe?…

I'm lucky enough to rent land next to my house and stables so it's pretty easy as a set-up. It's just disappointing to end like this. Just need time to adjust. Maybe, as you say, I should dust off our showing kit and get back into the inhand ring.

 

[Marigold4]

I know everyone has different ideas about these things, but it doesn't have to be like that. I know it's a million times easier said that done but you could have the two unrideables PTS and find something else to enjoy. Life's too short to not make the most of it... I PTS a 6 year old for the same reason because I couldn't do 20 years of managing a retiree. You sound like a great owner anyway.

I think if I was younger I might have considered this but I don't think I could PTS. TBH it hadn't even crossed my mind. I have had injured and elderly PTS and am not one to keep going to the bitter end, but these two are happy not ridden. If I run out of funds or lose my field, then I'll think again.

 

[Marigold4]

you always sound so good with horses, cant believe you will not ride again

anyway so sorry to hear this, you must love your horses very much x

Thank you! I think as I have gotten older I have questioned more and more the ethics of riding. It's all well and good if you have a willing partner who is up to the job (and I've had some of those) but making a horse do something they are miserable about is not for me. I've done everything slowly and gently and tried to make him comfortable but there is clearly something up somewhere.

 

[Marigold4]

What a shame and so young too. I hope perhaps you might have a friend who might let you ride one of there horses. I have also been on some wonderful riding holidays which is what I will probably do more of when my pony needs to be retired, hopefully not for a long time yet but I know I have been lucky to that he has been in work for most of the 14 years I have had him.

Maybe in a few years time you can try again with young horse. Whatever is wrong may have resolved itself with time.

Yes, saddler was suggesting give it another go sometime. I might browse some part loan ads but it's tricky when you've had your own.

 

[Marigold4]

Oh that’s so sad for you. BBP is one where I’ve spent his whole life trying to make him ok. And we had some wonderful rides. But generally followed by issue after issue. More non ridden time than ridden. And I finally decided at 15 that he just wasn’t a ridden horse. He is now having an absolute blast as a lawnmower, liberty horse and annoyer of the other two. The liberty work has been a brilliant way for us to build an even better relationship, it’s all at his pace and becomes running every day to see what we are doing next.

I’ve just bought a yearling almost with the full expectation that I may never ride it, just because that approach takes the pressure off me. It doesn’t mean I’m not looking forwards to the prospect of riding it one day, but I’ve bought it knowing it may only ever be a pet and being okay with that.

I met a lovely Irish vet once who said "if you have a young horse, you have hope". Very true. Has your yearling arrived yet? How exciting! I hope he brings you joy. Young horses are such a delight.

 

[Marigold4]

see I could never do that as I would simply be killing an animal which could have a perfectly happy life ahead as a retiree for my own amusement. There is a big difference between horses retired at whatever age that are in pain and where PTS on welfare grounds may be the best option and those who are simply for one reason or another unrideable.
The latter can live perfectly happily, pain free in their normal state ie unridden.

I have never bought or acquired a horse without knowing that if it didn't work out as a riding horse I would retire it. Often that may be at only 5 or 6 but the horse would still be my responsibility to ensure the quality of it's life.
If I kept my horses at a livery yard then I would be looking at a retirement livery for that horse.

I'm sorry for the position you are in Marigold but well done for doing the best for your horses. I have had several in the early retirement pension scheme over the years. They have not suffered as a result of their retirement and in fact they seemed delighted with it.

Yes, mine cetainly seem quite content. Here are the little retired dears. Mother and son.

 

[sport horse]

Very sorry - have you had a diagnosis from a good equine vet? If so, may I ask what is the problem?

 

[Marigold4]

Very sorry - have you had a diagnosis from a good equine vet? If so, may I ask what is the problem?

If I only knew! Back x-rayed before we started sitting on him, then again once he became uncomfortable. X-rayed as far back as we could go and also withers. Back looks wonderful with lots of space between processes. Three lameness investigations. All agreed he would pass a vetting though I can see he has lost his big trot. Hocks x-rayed - clean as a whistle. Suspensories scanned - look lovely. Slight inflammation in front feet last summer due to hard ground, rested and booted, not a problem now. Foot balance wrong, sorted now. Lots of attention paid to teeth. Saddle fitting major issue resulting in sore lumbar and SI. Injected SI and lots of physio. Not sore now. Tried Stride Free saddles and all types of Solutions treeless as other saddles wouldnt suit. I think we are up to ten saddle fitter visits now. Still not happy.

Treated in case he has hindgut ulcers x2 but no noticeable difference.

Tense, anxious, chomping his bit for England. Can manage walk, reluctant to trot, refuses to canter. Unhappy horse. Same with pro rider on board.

No one thinks ulcers but he hasnt been scoped.

Next stage would be bone scan but not convinced any of the things it would throw up could be fixed.

 

[FlyingCircus]

If I only knew! Back x-rayed before we started sitting on him, then again once he became uncomfortable. X-rayed as far back as we could go and also withers. Back looks wonderful with lots of space between processes. Three lameness investigations. All agreed he would pass a vetting though I can see he has lost his big trot. Hocks x-rayed - clean as a whistle. Suspensories scanned - look lovely. Slight inflammation in front feet last summer due to hard ground, rested and booted, not a problem now. Foot balance wrong, sorted now. Lots of attention paid to teeth. Saddle fitting major issue resulting in sore lumbar and SI. Injected SI and lots of physio. Not sore now. Tried Stride Free saddles and all types of Solutions treeless as other saddles wouldnt suit. I think we are up to ten saddle fitter visits now. Still not happy.

Treated in case he has hindgut ulcers x2 but no noticeable difference.

Tense, anxious, chomping his bit for England. Can manage walk, reluctant to trot, refuses to canter. Unhappy horse. Same with pro rider on board.

No one thinks ulcers but he hasnt been scoped.

Next stage would be bone scan but not convinced any of the things it would throw up could be fixed.

Out of interest, was he always this way? Or has it come on after a period of performing well under saddle?

I just ask as I know some that have seemed to HATE work do well after a long break, then treated like a breaker with someone who is talented at making it "fun" for the horse. I'm sure all the conditioning they did ahead of riding also did wonders.

 

[hollyandivy123]

ok i am not going to try and diagnose etc etc but have you ruled out PSSM or other metabolic disorders?

 

[catembi]

Re PSSM…it was in my head but I didn’t say it. I have had 4 with it. The next time I ride mine, I will PM you a clip so you can see if yours looks similar. My QH with PSSM is on loan as a companion to a huuuuuge retired warmblood, so it’s possible to reduce numbers. The loaner has his BHS stage 4 and is ex household cavalry and his business is paddock maintenance so he probably looks after him better than I did…

 

[sport horse]

My input for what its worth - maybe not much but I have bred and produced horses for too many years!! I personally loathe the young horse classes - the best place for young horses (in my opinion, again, for whats it worth!!) is in the field and left alone.

I have had 4 year old that went 'off'. I now stop work instantly, I dont waste money on vets/saddle fitters/physios/cranks etc etc unless I can see an obvious problem that needs attention, I open the field gate and wave goodbye for 6 - 12 months. So far that has worked in every case bar one and that horse was huge and had developed spavins. He was sadly incurable and after several years treatment I had to let him go.

It appears you are lucky enough to be in a position to put yours in a field for a good length of time. Do just that. Don't sell all your stuff - wait for a year or two and just see what happens. Meanwhile go sailing and see if you really enjoy it. Maybe, in time, your horse will heal/finish growing whatever. Maybe you will want to ride again. Maybe you will love sailing. Who knows? Just give yourself and your horse time before finally giving up!!

Good luck and do let us know how things go. Horses can be so depressing but they also give us so much pleasure.

 

[Marigold4]

Out of interest, was he always this way? Or has it come on after a period of performing well under saddle?

I just ask as I know some that have seemed to HATE work do well after a long break, then treated like a breaker with someone who is talented at making it "fun" for the horse. I'm sure all the conditioning they did ahead of riding also did wonders.

He's had loads of mini breaks - last winter he had 4 months off. He's got worse the more we do. Sessions short (20 mins) and I try to vary the work with different challenges. We go to different schools. Not keen on hacking on own but manages 30 mins if husband comes out on his bike.

 

[Marigold4]

Re PSSM…it was in my head but I didn’t say it. I have had 4 with it. The next time I ride mine, I will PM you a clip so you can see if yours looks similar. My QH with PSSM is on loan as a companion to a huuuuuge retired warmblood, so it’s possible to reduce numbers. The loaner has his BHS stage 4 and is ex household cavalry and his business is paddock maintenance so he probably looks after him better than I did…

Thank you I would love to see a clip of that. I have one of mine in walk and trot I could send?

 

[Marigold4]

ok i am not going to try and diagnose etc etc but have you ruled out PSSM or other metabolic disorders?

Not yet but we have had bloods done and CK was normal. Imown his mother and she is PSSM 1 negative.

 

[Marigold4]

My input for what its worth - maybe not much but I have bred and produced horses for too many years!! I personally loathe the young horse classes - the best place for young horses (in my opinion, again, for whats it worth!!) is in the field and left alone.

I have had 4 year old that went 'off'. I now stop work instantly, I dont waste money on vets/saddle fitters/physios/cranks etc etc unless I can see an obvious problem that needs attention, I open the field gate and wave goodbye for 6 - 12 months. So far that has worked in every case bar one and that horse was huge and had developed spavins. He was sadly incurable and after several years treatment I had to let him go.

It appears you are lucky enough to be in a position to put yours in a field for a good length of time. Do just that. Don't sell all your stuff - wait for a year or two and just see what happens. Meanwhile go sailing and see if you really enjoy it. Maybe, in time, your horse will heal/finish growing whatever. Maybe you will want to ride again. Maybe you will love sailing. Who knows? Just give yourself and your horse time before finally giving up!!

Good luck and do let us know how things go. Horses can be so depressing but they also give us so much pleasure.

Thanks for your input. That's really useful. He's not going anywhere so we'll have a look at him again after 12 months - good idea. It just doesn't seem worthwhile to throw any more money at it. Might investigate the PSSM thing though.

PS I have sailed with my husband for many years. I already know it's not really my cup of tea. Best description I've heard is that it's like being in prison with the added risk of drowning! Husband likes sailing in Force 7 and in the Fastnet Race. I don't!

 

[paddy555]

Not yet but we have had bloods done and CK was normal. Imown his mother and she is PSSM 1 negative.

they look very happy in your pic.

I would have thought PSSM 2 more likely. For any 5 yo who has a problem that can't be evaluated PSSM2 would be top of my list to eliminate. It shows once they come into work.

have you tried the vit E route? That could provide some answers. I would test him doing something, try high dose E for 10 days and re test on the same exercise (either long reins or ridden) I would expect some improvement, horse more supple, happier to move, just a little something that had improved to indicate if there was a chance it could work.
You may even be looking at vit e deficiency.

All that would be a quick and cheap route to go down to eliminate it

 

[IrishMilo]

I know you are probably trying to help, but I find it quite unkind to suggest to the OP that she have her two (clearly much loved) horses put to sleep. There are more important things in life than riding.

MariGold took my comment in the way it was intended (AKA, offering a different point of view and the suggestion that no one should judge her for putting her needs first for being able to ride a horse she bought to ride...), so there's not much point in derailing the thread further.

It's a grim position to be in and anyone going through it has my empathy.

 

[angel7]

How does he go in the long reins, could you consider a driving career after some time off? Seen Many write offs come back with steady regular driven work.

 

[BBP]

If I only knew! Back x-rayed before we started sitting on him, then again once he became uncomfortable. X-rayed as far back as we could go and also withers. Back looks wonderful with lots of space between processes. Three lameness investigations. All agreed he would pass a vetting though I can see he has lost his big trot. Hocks x-rayed - clean as a whistle. Suspensories scanned - look lovely. Slight inflammation in front feet last summer due to hard ground, rested and booted, not a problem now. Foot balance wrong, sorted now. Lots of attention paid to teeth. Saddle fitting major issue resulting in sore lumbar and SI. Injected SI and lots of physio. Not sore now. Tried Stride Free saddles and all types of Solutions treeless as other saddles wouldnt suit. I think we are up to ten saddle fitter visits now. Still not happy.

Treated in case he has hindgut ulcers x2 but no noticeable difference.

Tense, anxious, chomping his bit for England. Can manage walk, reluctant to trot, refuses to canter. Unhappy horse. Same with pro rider on board.

No one thinks ulcers but he hasnt been scoped.

Next stage would be bone scan but not convinced any of the things it would throw up could be fixed.

Just read this and so many bells ringing when you gave your symptoms, that’s exactly BBPs ulcer symptoms! Scoped, small ulcers found, treated and soooooo much better afterwards. Obviously not necessarily the same, but that’s exactly how he was, no trot and absolutely no canter (jammed breaks on to halt). Would grind his teeth and yawn a bit too. But looked a million dollars.

 

[Marigold4]

they look very happy in your pic.

I would have thought PSSM 2 more likely. For any 5 yo who has a problem that can't be evaluated PSSM2 would be top of my list to eliminate. It shows once they come into work.

have you tried the vit E route? That could provide some answers. I would test him doing something, try high dose E for 10 days and re test on the same exercise (either long reins or ridden) I would expect some improvement, horse more supple, happier to move, just a little something that had improved to indicate if there was a chance it could work.
You may even be looking at vit e deficiency.

All that would be a quick and cheap route to go down to eliminate it

Thanks for this suggestion. I have vit e oil - comes out of the container like golden syrup. I gave him 10 ml p.d. over the winter but stopped once grass started coming through. How much would high dose for 10 days be please? Thanks for your help.

 

[Marigold4]

Just read this and so many bells ringing when you gave your symptoms, that’s exactly BBPs ulcer symptoms! Scoped, small ulcers found, treated and soooooo much better afterwards. Obviously not necessarily the same, but that’s exactly how he was, no trot and absolutely no canter (jammed breaks on to halt). Would grind his teeth and yawn a bit too. But looked a million dollars.

Oooh tell me more. I have raised it twice with vet but she says he looks so well, ulcers unlikely. I wonder if I should insist. He yawns when iI'm getting him ready to ride. Not keen on the starving him for 12 hours though. I don't think he'll ever forgive me! He chomps so much we are on our 3rd Sprenger Duo bit. Had to change to this as he was damaging teeth chomping on metal bits.

 

[Marigold4]

How does he go in the long reins, could you consider a driving career after some time off? Seen Many write offs come back with steady regular driven work.

I did consider this! We have done several bouts of long reining following a programme given to us by Tom Beech osteopathic vet. He couldn't find much wrong with him but we diligently followed his advice. Horse is pretty good at it now. I need to think up some new challenges for ourselves though. I wonder if I could get a little buggy! I do get v bored of tagging along behind.

 

[paddy555]

Thanks for this suggestion. I have vit e oil - comes out of the container like golden syrup. I gave him 10 ml p.d. over the winter but stopped once grass started coming through. How much would high dose for 10 days be please? Thanks for your help.

10000iu of natural vit E. If yours is equimins I would probably give 15ml per day although mine showed a lot of improvement on 10ml. If it is not equimins then look at the label and see how much to give for 10000iu.

Even if they are just in the paddock over winter they will need some vit E.
I would absolutely insist on scoping for ulcers. If he has to be starved so be it. At least there will be an answer.

Ulcers and PSSM 2 are the two "biggies" that need to be eliminated.

Try keeping a diary especially of your rugging, the weather and changes in his behaviour. This is the time of the year when PSSM2 horses (not under control) start to struggle. Bad temper, nipping, don't like being touched behind the girth areas.

try googling saddle chariot. I tried one and if I had had more time for my ponies I would have had one. Great fun and a lot better than walking behind.

 

[BBP]

Oooh tell me more. I have raised it twice with vet but she says he looks so well, ulcers unlikely. I wonder if I should insist. He yawns when iI'm getting him ready to ride. Not keen on the starving him for 12 hours though. I don't think he'll ever forgive me! He chomps so much we are on our 3rd Sprenger Duo bit. Had to change to this as he was damaging teeth chomping on metal bits.

I was really reluctant to scope but my vets wouldn’t treat without it, and again it seemed unlikely as he looked so well. But he was utterly miserable. If you hacked him he would go but was really anxious, in the field or arena he would pin his ears back and grind to a halt if you asked him to move out of walk. He had already had a sacroiliac issue medicated and a muscle myopathy diagnosed but I still felt there was more to it than that. He would yawn a lot at feeding time or tacking up and would chomp his bit and grind his teeth. He was on 24/7 turnout with hay and company, he wasnt on any hard feed, his coat was gorgeous, he was a great weight. Attached photos are him just before diagnosed.

We did sucralfate and omeprazole for a few months, scoped clear, then equishure and all the ear pinning and grinding to a halt stopped, he was moving forwards happily with pricked ears, quit grinding his teeth and stopped yawning. Made me realise that even tiny ulcers like his can have a big impact. He’s got other issues like his hypermobility and vitamin e deficiency, but diagnosing the ulcers was so worthwhile.

Don’t want to give you false hope if it isn’t that, but perhaps one more Avenue to consider.

 

[Marigold4]

I was really reluctant to scope but my vets wouldn’t treat without it, and again it seemed unlikely as he looked so well. But he was utterly miserable. If you hacked him he would go but was really anxious, in the field or arena he would pin his ears back and grind to a halt if you asked him to move out of walk. He had already had a sacroiliac issue medicated and a muscle myopathy diagnosed but I still felt there was more to it than that. He would yawn a lot at feeding time or tacking up and would chomp his bit and grind his teeth. He was on 24/7 turnout with hay and company, he wasnt on any hard feed, his coat was gorgeous, he was a great weight. Attached photos are him just before diagnosed.

We did sucralfate and omeprazole for a few months, scoped clear, then equishure and all the ear pinning and grinding to a halt stopped, he was moving forwards happily with pricked ears, quit grinding his teeth and stopped yawning. Made me realise that even tiny ulcers like his can have a big impact. He’s got other issues like his hypermobility and vitamin e deficiency, but diagnosing the ulcers was so worthwhile.

Don’t want to give you false hope if it isn’t that, but perhaps one more Avenue to consider.
View attachment 80795View attachment 80796

BBP is so stunning. I love his head. His general build is very simlar to my boy. I will arrange for him to be scoped next week.

 

[BBP]

BBP is so stunning. I love his head. His general build is very simlar to my boy. I will arrange for him to be scoped next week.

As much as it wouldn’t be nice for him to have them I sort of hope you do find something.

 

[Marigold4]

10000iu of natural vit E. If yours is equimins I would probably give 15ml per day although mine showed a lot of improvement on 10ml. If it is not equimins then look at the label and see how much to give for 10000iu.

Even if they are just in the paddock over winter they will need some vit E.
I would absolutely insist on scoping for ulcers. If he has to be starved so be it. At least there will be an answer.

Ulcers and PSSM 2 are the two "biggies" that need to be eliminated.

Try keeping a diary especially of your rugging, the weather and changes in his behaviour. This is the time of the year when PSSM2 horses (not under control) start to struggle. Bad temper, nipping, don't like being touched behind the girth areas.

try googling saddle chariot. I tried one and if I had had more time for my ponies I would have had one. Great fun and a lot better than walking behind.

Googled the saddle chariot - that looks really fun! We have loads of wide level tracks near us where that would work brilliantly. A definite plan B!

I'll start the vit e today - is there anything else I should feed or change? He's out most of the time but comes in for about 6 hours during the day. Rye grass in field sadly but fed meadow grass haylage when in. Just double handful of meadow chaff and a handful of meadow grass nuts plus salt and a copper and zinc supplement.