Saddleseat, thoughts?

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

So I see a lot of videos about the US culture of Saddleseat (not to be confused with Tennessee Walking Horses, it's the same position but has nothing to do with the big lick) and I was wondering what other opinions of it are?

I personally hate the look of it. I see people with 7 inch shank bits as standard, too long saddles, horrid lower legs and armchair seats, not to mention the fact they are sitting on the horses lumbar spine/kidney area, which I was always told is a big no no as a child?

Now I am not attacking a singular culture, I just don't get it. Am I being a bit dramatic or does everyone else think similar to me? It's not just saddlebreds it's done with either, they do it with Arabs, Fresian etc.. all sorts.

This is an example of what I am talking about, just did a quick Google:

 

[ycbm]

I can't watch saddleseat or big lick, it's just so obviously wrong anatomically it makes me feel literally sick.
.

 

[HashRouge]

I think it's hideous, for all the reasons you mention!

Can anyone explain to me how they make the horses' tails look like that?

 

[Flame_]

I don't get it either.

It just looks stupid, like they're sat in the wrong place and riding badly on purpose

ETA ... And it's not just that it's different, I think western riding looks fab and the horses often look far more relaxed and natural than our lot, but saddleseat, no, it looks so at odds with comfort for horse and rider.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I think it's hideous, for all the reasons you mention!

Can anyone explain to me how they make the horses' tails look like that?

They cut the tendon on the bottom of the tail and then bandage it up so it heals upright.. I first saw it happen in a video about the TWH and it would appear that *some* of the saddleseat community do the same - I didn't mention it as they don't all do it. For those who are genetically able to hold their tails at such an angle is is apparently (I read this in some US news articles on the subject) common to put ginger paste or similar on it so they hold it away from the body.

I'm glad I'm not being OTT, I think so much is absolutely hideous. And I can't bear to think about the poor TWH and the big lick, I don't even want to debate it - hence why I caveated my original post.

An interesting/awful insight

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I actually also wonder how many of them are truly genetically predisposed as being swayback and how many just have their heads and necks forced into such an unnatural position for years and years with shank bits and too small martingales, and the rest, that they become that way due to their biomechanics.

 

[Melody Grey]

Why would you intentionally sit on the weakest part of the horse’s back? I must be massively missing the point!!

 

[w1bbler]

Never seen it before, never wqnt to see it again. ?

 

[shortstuff99]

I've done a bit with Morgans and some used to put what looked like elastic hobbles on them with bells on to make them pick the legs up high.

 

[Redders]

That’s an actual thing? It looks like they got bounced out the saddle and landed behind it.

 

[stangs]

I can’t imagine that the rider sitting that far back is good for the horse’s back, but otherwise the equitation makes sense aesthetically if not biomechanically. It also goes without saying that I don’t agree with any of the dodgy methods used in some saddleseat classes to exaggerate the horse’s movement or the conformation of the tail. As with all disciplines, the more the competition and prize money, the worse the standards of horse welfare.

That said, I’d like to try ride like that once in my life (on a horse in good condition, certainly not a competition animal) just to see what it feels like. And I do love many of the breeds involved in the discipline - e.g. saddlebreds and hackney ponies.

 

[mini_b]

I also hate it.
had these thoughts many times.

it goes against the grain of everything we do to enable us to ride a horse whilst keeping it a sound function animal.

Really, really gives me the ick.

 

[ester]

Given that I thought the basis was that you could ride your horse comfortably round your estate all day looking fancy it looks hard work to stay in that position. ..

 

[Orangehorse]

Saddleseat is a showing seat for the upheaded breeds of horses, saddlebreds, arabs, morgans. I don't particularly like those horses in the film clip, but I have had a saddleseat lesson and watched plenty of showing classes.

I also agree that the exaggerated seat and riding on the loins looks very ugly. It isn't dressage, but actually I know horses that showed saddleseat and were successful dressage horses.

The object is to appear to the judge as though the rider is doing nothing, riding a spirited horse with the lightest of touch. The lower legs do not touch the horse's sides, the hands are held high so as not to tangle in the long mane. The double bridle with narrow reins is so that only the slightest aids are given.

So you have to rely on core strength to ride, rise to the trot and give aids. You can give a canter aid with the outside leg, so the judge doesn't see!

Any interference with the tail is banned in the UK.

I experimented a bit at home and found that the slightly different seat and way of giving the aids did make the horse go differently and more "upheaded."

This is said to be how gentlemen rode in Rotten Row in London. You wear a saddlesuit as breeches and boots were for the grooms. It's all about an show, you are not required to leave the ground.

Someone took their saddleseat saddle to be repaired and the saddler remarked on what a nice old fashioned showing saddle it was!

 

[ester]

Just to throw some more context at it if people are interested this is from a series of narrated old videos of TWH development/breeding. And looks like comfortable/functional saddleseat situation!

edit to add I think this is the full vid

 

[Orangehorse]

I actually also wonder how many of them are truly genetically predisposed as being swayback and how many just have their heads and necks forced into such an unnatural position for years and years with shank bits and too small martingales, and the rest, that they become that way due to their biomechanics.

They are not forced into an unnatural position, they are born that way. They are the decendants of the European breeds that went to the Americas, that were bred out in Europe due to the introduction of dressage and arena riding and hunting and racing. Showing classes for hacks would be the sort of idea.

 

[stangs]

how many just have their heads and necks forced into such an unnatural position for years and years with shank bits and too small martingales

No more unnatural than what some top dressage riders do to their horses with rolkur. (Keeping in mind that the breeds used in saddleseat naturally have high head carriage to begin with.)

 

[Sossigpoker]

They cut the tendon on the bottom of the tail and then bandage it up so it heals upright.. I first saw it happen in a video about the TWH and it would appear that *some* of the saddleseat community do the same - I didn't mention it as they don't all do it. For those who are genetically able to hold their tails at such an angle is is apparently (I read this in some US news articles on the subject) common to put ginger paste or similar on it so they hold it away from the body.

I'm glad I'm not being OTT, I think so much is absolutely hideous. And I can't bear to think about the poor TWH and the big lick, I don't even want to debate it - hence why I caveated my original post.

An interesting/awful insight

Oh goody. They've come up with even more ways to abuse horses. ??

 

[ozpoz]

How more unnatural can you get if you are physically causing distortion by injury? Indefensible. That horse in the video is rolling it’s eyes, whether out of pain or fear, I don’t know, but I have never seen a show hack looking as tormented as that.

 

[COldNag]

I have only ridden saddleseat on a Morgan and it was pretty comfy (but they tend to be pretty comfy to ride anyway).

I might be wrong, and it is a very long while since I was involved, but I think British morgans tend not to be ridden in the extreme sit-far-back style you see with the TWHs.

I really don't like seeing riders sitting right on the loins - it must surely cause damage and discomfort.

 

[Gloi]

Just to throw some more context at it if people are interested this is from a series of narrated old videos of TWH development/breeding. And looks like comfortable/functional saddleseat situation!

edit to add I think this is the full vid

I like these, Especially Midnight sun, it's a shame they don't look like that in the ring now.

 

[HashRouge]

Just to throw some more context at it if people are interested this is from a series of narrated old videos of TWH development/breeding. And looks like comfortable/functional saddleseat situation!

edit to add I think this is the full vid

Midnight Sun is such a beautiful horse! That was really interesting to watch, as it is so different with what I would associated with the TWH nowadays.

 

[Orangehorse]

I have only ridden saddleseat on a Morgan and it was pretty comfy (but they tend to be pretty comfy to ride anyway).

I might be wrong, and it is a very long while since I was involved, but I think British morgans tend not to be ridden in the extreme sit-far-back style you see with the TWHs.

I really don't like seeing riders sitting right on the loins - it must surely cause damage and discomfort.

You are correct. The films from the USA make very uncomfortable viewing, large men riding young horses, there is very much that is wrong.

 

[Orangehorse]

I can't watch saddleseat or big lick, it's just so obviously wrong anatomically it makes me feel literally sick.
.

Big Lick is an aberration and there are lots of people in the USA who have been trying for many years to get it banned. Disgusting in many, many ways.

Saddleseat is a showing seat, for riding the upheaded horses that we no longer have in Europe, apart from the Arab that isn't ridden in that way in the UK as far as I know. It is supposed to be how the gentlemen would ride their horses on Rotten Row to impress the spectators. A hot, spirited horse, controlled by the lightest of aids.

Now, I had exactly the same reaction to saddleseat when I first came across it. Why? What is the purpose? Why ride in that way, what is wrong with english, why do the horses have their heads in the air?

These are upheaded breeds that are the descendants of the european horses that went to the americas. In Europe dressage or arena riding took over, and hunting so we mostly breed with the TB, which has a long low outline and forgot the old European breeds.

There is a book called The Conquerors by Dr. Deb Bennett. It was an eye opener for me.

 

[sbloom]

For anyone who'd like to help with getting Big Lick banned there's a guy on FB called something like Billy Go Boy who is leading a massive campaign and needs funding. He has videos of him talking to senators etc so I'm pretty sure he's the real deal.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

They are not forced into an unnatural position, they are born that way. They are the decendants of the European breeds that went to the Americas, that were bred out in Europe due to the introduction of dressage and arena riding and hunting and racing. Showing classes for hacks would be the sort of idea.

I can see that they are very naturally high head carriage horses, however I find it hard to believe that the horse carries itself quite as ewe necked and pulled back to the rider as I have seen in some videos.
Thank you for your explanations though, it explains it a lot more to me how and why it came about, I didn't realise it had such a history!

 

[ester]

I don't think that any of the current US saddleseat horses don't have their hooves adulterated in some way, which then leads to the altered posture (and how you can sit on it) and movement.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

The tail 'nicking' should be banned, it's abhorrent and totally indefensible. As Ester says, the hoof care is not in line with what is best for the horse.

This video is interesting. A SS show trained saddlebred is retrained for low level dressage after an injury.

I’m curious to know why you decided to change his discipline?

Multiple factors. Nautica was in a trailer accident and ended up fracturing his sacrum as a saddle seat horse. After a couple of years recovering with little progress and a poor prognosis, we decided his saddle seat lifestyle no longer suited him since he could not travel (trailer PTSD) and couldn't physically handle the stresses of high-intensity exercise. I decided at that time to move him to a barn closer to my house where he could get regular turnout and a slower rehab. The increased turnout helped with strengthening his injury site and we were able to begin riding more reliably. The barn where he moved to is primarily a dressage barn and once he was strong enough to handle daily training, I started him on a dressage program. At his level, the exercise is lower-intensity and really helps with his strength and flexibility of his old injury site.

American Saddlebreds in Dressage

 

[ycbm]

Big Lick is an aberration and there are lots of people in the USA who have been trying for many years to get it banned. Disgusting in many, many ways.

Saddleseat is a showing seat, for riding the upheaded horses that we no longer have in Europe, apart from the Arab that isn't ridden in that way in the UK as far as I know. It is supposed to be how the gentlemen would ride their horses on Rotten Row to impress the spectators. A hot, spirited horse, controlled by the lightest of aids.

Now, I had exactly the same reaction to saddleseat when I first came across it. Why? What is the purpose? Why ride in that way, what is wrong with english, why do the horses have their heads in the air?

These are upheaded breeds that are the descendants of the european horses that went to the americas. In Europe dressage or arena riding took over, and hunting so we mostly breed with the TB, which has a long low outline and forgot the old European breeds.

There is a book called The Conquerors by Dr. Deb Bennett. It was an eye opener for me.

I'm not talking about where the horse's head is, I'm talking about where the rider's bum is.

Biomechanically, it is completely wrong to sit on the spine where there is no support from the ribs.
.

 

[TPO]

There is a book called The Conquerors by Dr. Deb Bennett. It was an eye opener for me.

If you ever happen across a copy that's under £100 please let me know. Thank you