Saddleseat, thoughts?

[TPO]

Perfectly possible to ride a horse ethically

Thats the/my conundrum though, isn't it?

Tack, rider, surfaces, what WE adk them to do for US...its a slippery slope.

We cause damage every time we get on with microtears and everything else. Of course we should be very conscious of our actions and the repercussions and do our best to reduce the negative aspects and so on but using any animal is in our interests not theirs. Hence the rabbit hole!! ?

 

[Flame_]

Perfectly possible to ride a horse ethically. It just requires a serious understanding of horse psychology and stress signals, much more awareness of medical conditions and lameness than your average owner has, and, above all else, genuine willingness to let your horse say ‘no’ and respect that.

But we train that out of them don't we? Four and five year olds try saying no all the time, Sometimes through stress, confusion, frustration, defiance, cheek, pain, thinking they have a better plan, etc... We gradually train them not to do that and to get on board with whatever it is that we want them to do. It takes a pretty self-assured, strong-minded, or perhaps a seriously suffering, trained horse to stand up to it's rider's clear instructions.

What I love most about my horse is how expressive and vocal he is about everything. My last horse internalised everything and got on with it, so I rarely had any idea what he was dealing with or compensating for.

 

[stangs]

Tack, rider, surfaces, what WE adk them to do for US...its a slippery slope.

So that’s where ‘no’ comes in. I used to know a horse who truly loved being ridden - she’d hover around the mounting block waiting to get tacked up. But sometimes she wouldn’t go anywhere near it. It was her way of saying ‘not today, thanks’ and both sides were happier when she got given a day of rest as a result.

We ask them to step through puddles, jump, etc, but we have to leave it be if they aren’t keen on getting their feet wet, if they slam the brakes on before a jump. There’s nothing wrong with asking them to do something, as long as you let them say no. Some ‘no’s can be worked through overtime, e.g. building up a horse’s confident over cross poles to convince their nervous system that they can jump a small oxer without harm. Some ‘no’s are set in stone. Some aren’t that deep so there’s just no point micromanaging to get your way.

We cause damage every time we get on with microtears and everything else. Of course we should be very conscious of our actions and the repercussions and do our best to reduce the negative aspects and so on but using any animal is in our interests not theirs. Hence the rabbit hole!!

If you build a horse’s muscle up carefully and are a balanced rider, you shouldn’t be causing them damage. (Which is why the tradition of backing horses by getting on them one day is ridiculous - you wouldn’t start weightlifting at 60kg, you’d build the weight up - but that’s off topic) That said, I do think a certain level of competition of some disciples can never be done ethically. It’s just too much on the joints.

Using an animal is not always in their interest. But it can be done so both sides benefit and enjoy.

But we train that out of them don't we? Four and five year olds try saying no all the time, Sometimes through stress, confusion, frustration, defiance, cheek, pain, thinking they have a better plan, etc... We gradually train them not to do that and to get on board with whatever it is that we want them to do. It takes a pretty self-assured, strong-minded, or perhaps a seriously suffering, trained horse to stand up to it's rider's clear instructions.

In an ideal world, a horse would say ‘no’ and its handler/rider’s first thought would be to pause, let everyone cool down, and say, “okay, but why?” Is it pain? Is it the nervous system preparing for pain? Is it confusion? Is it just not feeling like it? Is this something I can break down into manageable steps to address, something that needs a professional’s opinion, or something that’s a one off? In almost the same way, I suppose, as when a child says no to something. (Except I don’t think a horse will do anything to be deliberately defiant or cheeky.)

It is devastating how many horses internalise though. The never dying legacy of “ride him through it!”

 

[ycbm]

Which is why the tradition of backing horses by getting on them one day is ridiculous - you wouldn’t start weightlifting at 60kg, you’d build the weight up

I don't think most people have a range of jockeys of increasing weight available to back a horse? What else do you suggest but there being a day when an average weight rider gets on?
.

 

[TPO]

you shouldn’t be causing them damage.

But we do, that's my point. I've packed up all my text books for a house move and don't have access to Google scholar.

Horses are not designed to carry people but they manage so we take advantage of that.

The horses whole skeleton is that of a suspension bridge and we load the front half.

Not to mention the effects of any pieces of tack be them bitless or treeless or whatever people think of as "kinder".

We train the no out of them, hopefully sympathetically, but you can't have a No occurring during an emergency or when a vet is needed or when you need them to move or be safe.

 

[TPO]

Kinda sums up equine anatomy!!

 

[Lois Lame]

Thats the/my conundrum though, isn't it?

Tack, rider, surfaces, what WE adk them to do for US...its a slippery slope.

We cause damage every time we get on with microtears and everything else. Of course we should be very conscious of our actions and the repercussions and do our best to reduce the negative aspects and so on but using any animal is in our interests not theirs. Hence the rabbit hole!! ?

But we don't do damage every time we get on.

 

[Lois Lame]

Perfectly possible to ride a horse ethically.

This I totally agree with.
It's why we want to sit in balance, give aids as quietly and gently as possible, be 'as one' with the horse. Blah blah blah... why we spend a lifetime trying to get it right. Perfect. But have to fight our various weaknesses, both physical and mental. And emotional.

So that’s where ‘no’ comes in. I used to know a horse who truly loved being ridden - she’d hover around the mounting block waiting to get tacked up. But sometimes she wouldn’t go anywhere near it. It was her way of saying ‘not today, thanks’ and both sides were happier when she got given a day of rest as a result.

We ask them to step through puddles, jump, etc, but we have to leave it be if they aren’t keen on getting their feet wet, if they slam the brakes on before a jump. There’s nothing wrong with asking them to do something, as long as you let them say no. Some ‘no’s can be worked through overtime, e.g. building up a horse’s confident over cross poles to convince their nervous system that they can jump a small oxer without harm. Some ‘no’s are set in stone. Some aren’t that deep so there’s just no point micromanaging to get your way.


If you build a horse’s muscle up carefully and are a balanced rider, you shouldn’t be causing them damage. (Which is why the tradition of backing horses by getting on them one day is ridiculous - you wouldn’t start weightlifting at 60kg, you’d build the weight up - but that’s off topic) That said, I do think a certain level of competition of some disciples can never be done ethically. It’s just too much on the joints.

Using an animal is not always in their interest. But it can be done so both sides benefit and enjoy.


In an ideal world, a horse would say ‘no’ and its handler/rider’s first thought would be to pause, let everyone cool down, and say, “okay, but why?” Is it pain? Is it the nervous system preparing for pain? Is it confusion? Is it just not feeling like it? Is this something I can break down into manageable steps to address, something that needs a professional’s opinion, or something that’s a one off? In almost the same way, I suppose, as when a child says no to something. (Except I don’t think a horse will do anything to be deliberately defiant or cheeky.)

It is devastating how many horses internalise though. The never dying legacy of “ride him through it!”

I love this post^

but [toothy grin]

I don't agree with this part:

(Except I don’t think a horse will do anything to be deliberately defiant or cheeky.)

Perhaps I disagree with it because that's how I read some of the behaviour of my most recent horse and how I would have done exactly the same as him if our positions and species had been reversed.

 

[Lois Lame]

But we do, that's my point. I've packed up all my text books for a house move and don't have access to Google scholar.

Horses are not designed to carry people but they manage so we take advantage of that.

The horses whole skeleton is that of a suspension bridge and we load the front half.

Not to mention the effects of any pieces of tack be them bitless or treeless or whatever people think of as "kinder".

We train the no out of them, hopefully sympathetically, but you can't have a No occurring during an emergency or when a vet is needed or when you need them to move or be safe.

I believe there are a vast number of truely brilliant relationships between horse and rider out there. A lot of them will remain unknown. These people are not damaging their horses in any way. The world has gone a little crazy at the moment. *coughpetacough*

And I beg to differ about whether horses can carry people. It just so happens that in a particular spot on their body, they can.

 

[GSD Woman]

wo reasons:
1) you do genuinely love your horse but you’ve been taught these practices by a trainer you trust, who has explained to you why these practices aren’t harmful, or who you believe would never mention a harmful practice to begin with.

Unfortunately I've worked with 2 trainers that believed that. 1 with the horses and 1 with my first dog.

The one with the horses picked up a lot of it from a seminar with a rider who had trained under George Morris.

The one with the dogs, I didn't know better and I will never do that to a dog again. The man took a certain dog training method and b@$tardized. Towards the end with that person I really started to question things especially when it was nothing in the book. Another hard @ss trainer who had trained with the author of the book told me years later that 1st trainer no longer trained the method and had told the method originator to not call him a method trainer.

I hope that isn't too confusing.

 

[GSD Woman]

stangs,

Do you follow Denny Emerson on FaceBook? He totally goes for that. I think his page is Tamarack Hill. I'm unsure of the spelling. He discusses gradually building up muscle, all sorts of slow and gradual training and giving the horse the foundation. Love it.

 

[stangs]

I don't think most people have a range of jockeys of increasing weight available to back a horse? What else do you suggest but there being a day when an average weight rider gets on?
.

I'd like to see people do more polework, hill work and crunches - with and without a saddle - to build up the horse's core. Then, with any work you've been doing with a saddle, you add saddle bags with a little balanced weight too. I have also seen people tie weighted bags (the ones used at gyms), that's around 10-20kg, to the top of the saddle to further build up weight. Alternatively, my dream is to buy a pack saddle which would permit one to really fine-tune how much weight the horse is carrying. Of course, these two later ideas are going to be only in walk, possibly a little trot, but still will go a long way.

Do you follow Denny Emerson on FaceBook? He totally goes for that. I think his page is Tamarack Hill. I'm unsure of the spelling. He discusses gradually building up muscle, all sorts of slow and gradual training and giving the horse the foundation. Love it.

Didn't before, but his page looks very interesting. Thanks for the recommendation

 

[TPO]

But we don't do damage every time we get on.

We do (head.brickwall.)

Every time we ask a horse to carry us we do

They are not designed to carry us

Of course we hopefully do the best to mitigate this damage and ride horses that have been gotten fit correctly, wear fitting tack, hooves are perfectly balanced (& without shoes as shoes cause damage), that will are never out of balance, so on and so forth

Riding horses causes damage. This topic has been thrashed out many a time but there's only usually one poster insisting that it doesn't and that it's gods will ?

 

[TPO]

I believe there are a vast number of truely brilliant relationships between horse and rider out there. A lot of them will remain unknown. These people are not damaging their horses in any way. The world has gone a little crazy at the moment. *coughpetacough*

And I beg to differ about whether horses can carry people. It just so happens that in a particular spot on their body, they can.

Just because we can doesn't mean we should

But we do regardless

Not sure where you are seeing seeing all these perfect partnerships either. There are copious videos and pictures on here alone of out of balance riders, lame horses, a county behind riders, gripping up constantly heels/spurs in riding, taking back teeth out (usually mouths strapped shut). I don't believe that they are doing it on purpose but it happens and the usual response on here is wow, well done, blah blah.

That is just a very small proportion of riders there is the same on every yard, every show or competition and every clinic.

With the best will in the world there are no perfectly balanced riders who are not causing damage (on a physiological level) just by getting on never mind the actual discomfort and pain caused by the majority of riders and I count myself amongst them. I am far from perfect.

I am aware I have a fairly decent anatomical and behavioural knowledge. I do my best for their mental well being, they get regular therapy, saddle fitting, trimming and proper fitness fitness schooling plans but I'm under no illusion that using them how I wish does them damage.

Anyway I'm out. This topic has been more than covered on several other threads that included posters with a far better knowledge than me and who could accept what we do to and cause horses

 

[Mule]

Just because we can doesn't mean we should

But we do regardless

Not sure where you are seeing seeing all these perfect partnerships either. There are copious videos and pictures on here alone of out of balance riders, lame horses, a county behind riders, gripping up constantly heels/spurs in riding, taking back teeth out (usually mouths strapped shut). I don't believe that they are doing it on purpose but it happens and the usual response on here is wow, well done, blah blah.

That is just a very small proportion of riders there is the same on every yard, every show or competition and every clinic.

With the best will in the world there are no perfectly balanced riders who are not causing damage (on a physiological level) just by getting on never mind the actual discomfort and pain caused by the majority of riders and I count myself amongst them. I am far from perfect.

I am aware I have a fairly decent anatomical and behavioural knowledge. I do my best for their mental well being, they get regular therapy, saddle fitting, trimming and proper fitness fitness schooling plans but I'm under no illusion that using them how I wish does them damage.

Anyway I'm out. This topic has been more than covered on several other threads that included posters with a far better knowledge than me and who could accept what we do to and cause horses

As an interesting possible link, my horse is always much happier to be ridden after his winter break. He usually gets 6 weeks barefoot and unridden. I personally think part of the benefit is that any aches and pains have a chance to heal up.

 

[Orangehorse]

As an interesting possible link, my horse is always much happier to be ridden after his winter break. He usually gets 6 weeks barefoot and unridden. I personally think part of the benefit is that any aches and pains have a chance to heal up.

That's exactly what my saddle fitter said. Years ago it was considered good horse management to take the shoes off and turn out in the field. She said she saw far more back problems than in the past when horses were given time off and recovered from all those little niggles.

Don't know how that affects the old working horse though, presumably they were never given time off.

 

[Orangehorse]

I was watching a programme on TV about Randolph Hearst last night and spotted some horses going out on a hack being ridden in saddleseat saddles and the riders had suits on, not western or English.

 

[TPO]

That's exactly what my saddle fitter said. Years ago it was considered good horse management to take the shoes off and turn out in the field. She said she saw far more back problems than in the past when horses were given time off and recovered from all those little niggles.

Don't know how that affects the old working horse though, presumably they were never given time off.

Farriers say the same thing.

It was typical years ago for hunters to have summers off and unshod then vice versa for competition/leisure horses.

That 12wk break from shoes gave their hooves a chance to recover.

The Ferries are well known and respected farriers up here. They wrote an article for a horse publication saying how because we now shoe year round they are seeing far more "navicular", WLD, seedy toe and general lameness.

Even farrier texts like Hickmans and, his names left my head, the book is No foot no horse state that shoes damage hooves and horses need time unshod to recover from that damage.

Very few leisure riders do this. With the invention of indoors and surfaces people ride year round

 

[st_marks]

There's quite a few TWH at my barn and they go similarly to that video of Midnight Sun - though he's definitely stockier and more compact than the Walkers I see around. We do have one horse who is a retired/rescued Big Lick horse, reportedly. He has big, flashy movement that I find a bit unsettling but he's pretty mentally together considering how he was likely treated in the past. They all have normal feet and are owned by adult amateur happy hacker types.

Here's a TWH in a Western saddle showing the gaits, this is very much what I see daily: https://www.naturallygaited.com/tribute-to-a-legend-champagne-watchout/

And here's an article on Champagne Watchout, a TWH stallion, with videos of a dressage freestyle including a gaited piaffe and also competing in a TWH class against Big Lick horses: https://www.naturallygaited.com/tribute-to-a-legend-champagne-watchout/

We also have a Saddlebred barn next door, they're pretty cool horses and the riders do not sit as dramatically far back as in the photos in this thread. My limited understanding is that as TWH and Saddlebreds are gaited, you sit a bit farther back to free up the front end to move. (I felt the same thing on an Icelandic and the whole saddleseat seat made more sense to me after.) And then that natural choice has gotten warped and exaggerated in the show ring.

Here's a video of American Saddlebred foals, the high headset/ewe neck is genetic:

... and one of ASBs eventing and jumping:

 

[st_marks]

Oh, I failed at that first TWH link, here is is again:

 

[Pippity]

And here's an article on Champagne Watchout, a TWH stallion, with videos of a dressage freestyle including a gaited piaffe and also competing in a TWH class against Big Lick horses: https://www.naturallygaited.com/tribute-to-a-legend-champagne-watchout/

I knew of Champagne Watchout from him competing in the Big Lick, but didn't know about his life after that. He really was a stunning horse, and a lot chunkier than I would have expected of a TWH.

The video of him in the Big Lick hits me every time. His gaits still look odd to me, because I'm not used to them, but he's on a loose rein, his rider is still and centred, and he looks happy. And then you look at the other horses spidering along with their riders hunched over, and it emphasises just how horrifying the Big Lick is.

 

[ycbm]

Here's a video of American Saddlebred the high headset/ewe neck is genetic:

It is now.

Selective breeding has a lot to answer for. Arabs weren't supposed to look like sea horses, either.

The ridden stuff at the end of that video looks like abuse to me.
.

 

[ycbm]

Don't know how that affects the old working horse though, presumably they were never given time off.

50 years ago when I was first involved with horses the term for any horse over 8 years old was "aged" and horses reached maximum value at 8 and began to go down in value at 10. Any horse of 15 was considered an old horse and when I first insured in 1981 there was no insurance for any horse over 15.

Our whole understanding of how to manage horses for longevity has changed very much for the better. With the possible exception of leisure and sport horses never having a break from shoes.
.

 

[planete]

That's exactly what my saddle fitter said. Years ago it was considered good horse management to take the shoes off and turn out in the field. She said she saw far more back problems than in the past when horses were given time off and recovered from all those little niggles.

Don't know how that affects the old working horse though, presumably they were never given time off.

Working horses' tasks were usually seasonal on farms so probably had slack times. Hired carriage horses were unfortunately worked relentlessly into the ground for the most part (Black Beauty?) but the working life of any horse was often very short. Abuse was also endemic. Logging with horses in Snowdonia above Betws-y-coed was stopped by the RSPCA after some logging horses were left tied to a tree in the woods over a week-end one Winter while the lads went on a bender (as told by a local farrier). We are talking beginning of the 20th century here. The logging could also be done very badly with the horses having to run flat out down a slope to avoid being run over by the load behind them. Needless to say, it does not have to be done this way and modern loggers are mostly very careful of their horses who have to be highly trained. I am inclined to think that in general horses now have a better life than earlier when people's livings depended on their horses working no matter what and people had to be in close contact with horses whether they liked them or not or were frightened of them.