Saddleseat, thoughts?

[Meowy Catkin]

I'm not talking about where the horse's head is, I'm talking about where the rider's bum is.

Biomechanically, it is completely wrong to sit on the spine where there is no support from the ribs.
.

I do wonder if this is why the horse with the sacrum injury did better when retrained to ride with a dressage saddle and in a dressage style?

 

[sbloom]

I'm not talking about where the horse's head is, I'm talking about where the rider's bum is.

Biomechanically, it is completely wrong to sit on the spine where there is no support from the ribs.
.

I agree, having the rider back there just makes no sense biomechanically, but (probably more for others than in direct response) it's more about rider than saddle. Placing the saddle beyond the back rib isn't universally regarded as a bad thing, but it's almost certain that if you do it the rider's weight should be well forwards, ideally with weight down the thighs and not all on the seatbones. They are magnifying their crimes by sitting well back in these saddles, leaning forwards won't fix that!

 

[stangs]

Pictures from Saddle Seat Equitation on rider saddle fit

Spoiler

 

[sbloom]

Pictures from Saddle Seat Equitation on rider saddle fit

That last photo is , her buttocks are actually beyond the back rib and the weight concentrated on about 4-6" of the rear of the saddle. No wonder the poor horse already has that shadowed area either side of the lumbar spine - this should look rounded, not hollowed and in shadowed.

In fact I'd say the first and third show the same over shoot of the ribcage, it's just that the top horse has a longer ribcage and is shorter to the point of hip, the horse at the bottom has more space there. Just as bad and possibly worse as the horse in the third photo may be weaker there because of its build.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Must have strong thighs to rise to the trot from there! Blimey. Looks like hard work for the rider and rubbish for the horse!

 

[Cortez]

I have retrained many Saddlebreds for dressage, and indeed used to train out of a Saddlebred and Tennessee Walking Horse barn in Tennessee. Eye opening wouldn't even begin to cover it: horrifying is a better description. Tail nicking, tail set harnesses (for holding the cut tail permanently in position, worn all the time except when the horse is ridden), ginger up the bum to make then carry the tail, soreing, chains and wooden balls on the front legs to make them "snap" up and lift higher, built up pads on the front hooves, and then the riders position on the kidneys. All of it a travesty. And even more heartbreaking, the Saddlebred horse has such a lovely, kind, willing character. I'd have both a Saddlebred or a TWH any day.

P.S. There have been Saddlebreds at GP dressage, and they have done very well through the levels when properly trained.

 

[ester]

If they weren’t kind and willing they wouldn’t put up with it all

 

[Orangehorse]

I can see that they are very naturally high head carriage horses, however I find it hard to believe that the horse carries itself quite as ewe necked and pulled back to the rider as I have seen in some videos.
Thank you for your explanations though, it explains it a lot more to me how and why it came about, I didn't realise it had such a history!

No, I agree that ewe necked is not a good look, nor how it should be done. Its like any riding discipline, there is the theory and then there is the execution. Should a dressage horse have its head pulled in and forget about the hindquarters. No, of course not, but it happens!

 

[Orangehorse]

I have retrained many Saddlebreds for dressage, and indeed used to train out of a Saddlebred and Tennessee Walking Horse barn in Tennessee. Eye opening wouldn't even begin to cover it: horrifying is a better description. Tail nicking, tail set harnesses (for holding the cut tail permanently in position, worn all the time except when the horse is ridden), ginger up the bum to make then carry the tail, soreing, chains and wooden balls on the front legs to make them "snap" up and lift higher, built up pads on the front hooves, and then the riders position on the kidneys. All of it a travesty. And even more heartbreaking, the Saddlebred horse has such a lovely, kind, willing character. I'd have both a Saddlebred or a TWH any day.

P.S. There have been Saddlebreds at GP dressage, and they have done very well through the levels when properly trained.

You are right, some of the practices are just horrifying. All to win a prize. The sad thing is that the judges and vets go along with it all.

An american lady said that the saddlebred horse is very good for dressage and has a kind and willing temperament.

 

[Orangehorse]

If you ever happen across a copy that's under £100 please let me know. Thank you

I bought my copy from the USA, but even with the postage it wasn't that much.

 

[TPO]

I bought my copy from the USA, but even with the postage it wasn't that much.

I've not had any joy even on USA sites.

I've emailed the British contact for Europe sales of (I'm going to get this wrong) ESI, deb bennetts group, but not heard back yet.

 

[Lois Lame]

So I see a lot of videos about the US culture of Saddleseat (not to be confused with Tennessee Walking Horses, it's the same position but has nothing to do with the big lick) and I was wondering what other opinions of it are?

I personally hate the look of it. I see people with 7 inch shank bits as standard, too long saddles, horrid lower legs and armchair seats, not to mention the fact they are sitting on the horses lumbar spine/kidney area, which I was always told is a big no no as a child?

Now I am not attacking a singular culture, I just don't get it. Am I being a bit dramatic or does everyone else think similar to me? It's not just saddlebreds it's done with either, they do it with Arabs, Fresian etc.. all sorts.

This is an example of what I am talking about, just did a quick Google:

I don't get it either.

To me it's in the same category as the spinning QHs. I mean, what's that for? An extremely 'impressive' pirouette but much, much better because it's done fast and furious and 50 times at once?

Madness.

 

[GSD Woman]

Saddlebreds can also be great trail horses and some have hunted. A lovely breed when they aren't made up to be freaks.

 

[Lyle]

I don't get it either.

To me it's in the same category as the spinning QHs. I mean, what's that for? An extremely 'impressive' pirouette but much, much better because it's done fast and furious and 50 times at once?

Madness.

Just like the dressage pirouette has it's roots in military/warfare, the spin for QH's simulates how they would follow a cow (the discipline cutting is a good example of this) Reining is basically the 'dressage' of the western performance sports.

 

[Cortez]

Just like the dressage pirouette has it's roots in military/warfare, the spin for QH's simulates how they would follow a cow (the discipline cutting is a good example of this) Reining is basically the 'dressage' of the western performance sports.

The rollback is based on cow work, the spin is just a spin. I've never seen a horse (or a cow) rotating on the spot at speed in nature.

 

[TPO]

The rollback is based on cow work, the spin is just a spin. I've never seen a horse (or a cow) rotating on the spot at speed in nature.

The majority of the "moves" performed with horses are exaggerations and extentions of what they can do naturally.

The spin is developed from a horses ability to plant a hoof, turn in it and spin around and from that the competition spin was invented.

Much in the same way that you don't naturally see horses piaffing or passaging in the same way that is expected of them in classical or "modern" dressage.

A spin starts from training a turn on the haunches and stepping across in front then is developed from there.

I've never trained one but sitting on one is something else!

I don't understand saddle seat but I follow Tamarack Farm/Denny Emerson who is a big advocate for Morgans. I'm sure he's posted saddle seat pictures that aren't as extreme as the ones on this thread.

So sad that the desire to win trumps all with some people ?

The tail stuff happens/Ed in QHs too. Pleasure horses shouldn't move their tails so "things" were done. A low head carriage is desirable and whilst it inbuilt with most that isn't always enough. Horror stories of people tying heads up off rafters and the next day the horse cant keep its head up so has that "rolling a peanut" effect...

Very sad

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

So sad that the desire to win trumps all with some people ?

The tail stuff happens/Ed in QHs too. Pleasure horses shouldn't move their tails so "things" were done. A low head carriage is desirable and whilst it inbuilt with most that isn't always enough. Horror stories of people tying heads up off rafters and the next day the horse cant keep its head up so has that "rolling a peanut" effect...

Very sad

Agreed with your first sentence fully!
Naively I didn't know that they had such horrible methods in QH showing, obviously such is the nature of the human beast there will be some unsavoury, but I always saw it as working animal based - and so much of the riding is more weight based and loose with less gadgets.. More fool me. I wish I could say I was surprised.
I also don't understand the super slow lope I think it's called. I see people saying it's natural but it looks nothing close to natural, it makes them dog lame to be honest.

 

[TPO]

Agreed with your first sentence fully!
Naively I didn't know that they had such horrible methods in QH showing, obviously such is the nature of the human beast there will be some unsavoury, but I always saw it as working animal based - and so much of the riding is more weight based and loose with less gadgets.. More fool me. I wish I could say I was surprised.
I also don't understand the super slow lope I think it's called. I see people saying it's natural but it looks nothing close to natural, it makes them dog lame to be honest.

The ranch and cattle classes are working based and reining came from ranch work.

Pleasure horses are thr ones to be "comfortable to ride all day surveying your land" hence the still jog and rocking lope. Of course taken to extremes!

Halter horses are the ones that look like beef cattle and some lines are like post legged toilet roll tubes with a kartrashian fake butt.

We somehow feel the need to take everything to extremes

 

[Cortez]

The majority of the "moves" performed with horses are exaggerations and extentions of what they can do naturally.

The spin is developed from a horses ability to plant a hoof, turn in it and spin around and from that the competition spin was invented.

Much in the same way that you don't naturally see horses piaffing or passaging in the same way that is expected of them in classical or "modern" dressage.

A spin starts from training a turn on the haunches and stepping across in front then is developed from there.

I've never trained one but sitting on one is something else!

I don't understand saddle seat but I follow Tamarack Farm/Denny Emerson who is a big advocate for Morgans. I'm sure he's posted saddle seat pictures that aren't as extreme as the ones on this thread.

So sad that the desire to win trumps all with some people ?

The tail stuff happens/Ed in QHs too. Pleasure horses shouldn't move their tails so "things" were done. A low head carriage is desirable and whilst it inbuilt with most that isn't always enough. Horror stories of people tying heads up off rafters and the next day the horse cant keep its head up so has that "rolling a peanut" effect...

Very sad

I am well aware of the origins of "moves". Spinning is not based on anything, unlike piaffe, passage, rollback, sliding stop, etc. I have competed reining and working ranch in the US so have a good idea of what it is like to both ride and train Western, although I am far from an expert.

 

[TPO]

I am well aware of the origins of "moves". Spinning is not based on anything, unlike piaffe, passage, rollback, sliding stop, etc. I have competed reining and working ranch in the US so have a good idea of what it is like to both ride and train Western, although I am far from an expert.

I was agreeing with you, not sure why you're copping an attitude with me? I never suggested that you didn't know about the origins of moves. Im well aware of your vast knowledge

Spinning is based on the turnaround that all/most horses perform naturally, then went from 180 to 360, then tried to see how many times they could perform rotations and refined the movement.

 

[Lois Lame]

The majority of the "moves" performed with horses are exaggerations and extentions of what they can do naturally.

The spin is developed from a horses ability to plant a hoof, turn in it and spin around and from that the competition spin was invented.

Much in the same way that you don't naturally see horses piaffing or passaging in the same way that is expected of them in classical or "modern" dressage.

A spin starts from training a turn on the haunches and stepping across in front then is developed from there.

I've never trained one but sitting on one is something else!

I don't understand saddle seat but I follow Tamarack Farm/Denny Emerson who is a big advocate for Morgans. I'm sure he's posted saddle seat pictures that aren't as extreme as the ones on this thread.

So sad that the desire to win trumps all with some people ?

The tail stuff happens/Ed in QHs too. Pleasure horses shouldn't move their tails so "things" were done. A low head carriage is desirable and whilst it inbuilt with most that isn't always enough. Horror stories of people tying heads up off rafters and the next day the horse cant keep its head up so has that "rolling a peanut" effect...

Very sad

There is a total lack of understanding in my opinion in the QH competition people who want their horses long, low and half dead.

 

[Lois Lame]

Naively I didn't know that they had such horrible methods in QH showing, obviously such is the nature of the human beast there will be some unsavoury, but I always saw it as working animal based - and so much of the riding is more weight based and loose with less gadgets.. More fool me. I wish I could say I was surprised.
I also don't understand the super slow lope I think it's called. I see people saying it's natural but it looks nothing close to natural, it makes them dog lame to be honest.

Too true, AShetlandBitMeOnce. I also thought it was just plain ignorance. I should have known netter that some would go to such extremes as tying a horse's head up high for hours.

 

[Lois Lame]

'I also don't understand the super slow lope I think it's called. I see people saying it's natural but it looks nothing close to natural, it makes them dog lame to be honest.'

Oh, and as for that, I think they think it is super impressive instead of what it really is - damaging their horse.

 

[Lois Lame]

The ranch and cattle classes are working based and reining came from ranch work.

Pleasure horses are thr ones to be "comfortable to ride all day surveying your land" hence the still jog and rocking lope. Of course taken to extremes!

Halter horses are the ones that look like beef cattle and some lines are like post legged toilet roll tubes with a kartrashian fake butt.

We somehow feel the need to take everything to extremes

I'm relieved to hear you say this.

 

[Lois Lame]

[QUOTE="TPO, post: 14830063, member: 56748"
Spinning is based on the turnaround that all/most horses perform naturally, then went from 180 to 360, then tried to see how many times they could perform rotations and refined the movement.[/QUOTE]

Why? It's madness.

 

[TPO]

[QUOTE="TPO, post: 14830063, member: 56748"
Spinning is based on the turnaround that all/most horses perform naturally, then went from 180 to 360, then tried to see how many times they could perform rotations and refined the movement.

Why? It's madness.[/QUOTE]

Why anything. Humans seem to have something in them to take everything as far as they can with little to no regard for consequences, well apart from money ?

Jump higher, gallop faster, collect more, do it for longer, turn quicker, move smoother, look bigger/smaller/exaggerated and so it goes on.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Why? It's madness.

Why anything. Humans seem to have something in them to take everything as far as they can with little to no regard for consequences, well apart from money ?

Jump higher, gallop faster, collect more, do it for longer, turn quicker, move smoother, look bigger/smaller/exaggerated and so it goes on.[/QUOTE]

What I don't understand though is when it gets to this point you clearly have no love for your animal, otherwise you would find such practises as those that have been mentioned abhorrent, as we do. Not to mention if money motivates you there are much easier and faster ways to make it - so rather that changing the thing you claim to love, or abusing it for success, go and be successful another way... do something else.

 

[TPO]

Why anything. Humans seem to have something in them to take everything as far as they can with little to no regard for consequences, well apart from money ?

Jump higher, gallop faster, collect more, do it for longer, turn quicker, move smoother, look bigger/smaller/exaggerated and so it goes on.

What I don't understand though is when it gets to this point you clearly have no love for your animal, otherwise you would find such practises as those that have been mentioned abhorrent, as we do. Not to mention if money motivates you there are much easier and faster ways to make it - so rather that changing the thing you claim to love, or abusing it for success, go and be successful another way... do something else.[/QUOTE]

Just look at 16mths old getting backed for racing. Running and shod before they are anywhere close to being developed "enough" for that physical (& mental) stress.

Money talks...

If there wasn't money and "prestige" at stake they wouldn't bother?

Although having said that I've liveried beside people who clearly didn't like their horses and begrudged them even even time for basic care, some not showing up at all on DIY, and never gave a second thought as to what they asked of the horses when the notion took them. I'm talking a horse that wasn't looked at in18mths being cantered, galloped and jumped for three days then dropped again (when very sore, still and lame). Yet according to Facebook she really loved horses especially hers...

I honestly don't know what the answer is

With some western events in America there is big money at stake in 2yr old futurities for example. No such thing or purses over here yet still QH trainers and owners/riders are starting their horses at 2. Why?

I honestly don't know the answer to your questions ASBMO and like Millipops said (the horse hitting thread I think) I get close to the edge of the rabbit hole that we shouldn't be riding them at all

 

[stangs]

What I don't understand though is when it gets to this point you clearly have no love for your animal, otherwise you would find such practises as those that have been mentioned abhorrent, as we do.

Two reasons:
1) you do genuinely love your horse but you’ve been taught these practices by a trainer you trust, who has explained to you why these practices aren’t harmful, or who you believe would never mention a harmful practice to begin with.

2) you love your horse like people love their cars: a materialistic love where it’s your ‘baby’ as long it works for you. (I think many professionals end up falling into this category.)

 

[stangs]

I get close to the edge of the rabbit hole that we shouldn't be riding them at all

Perfectly possible to ride a horse ethically. It just requires a serious understanding of horse psychology and stress signals, much more awareness of medical conditions and lameness than your average owner has, and, above all else, genuine willingness to let your horse say ‘no’ and respect that.

Unfortunately many riders will never be comfortable with that last point. Even the most diligent and knowledgeable of owners still think that their horse owes them the privilege of being on their back, just because they take care of it.