Sale Livery Injury

[Old school]

Re the OP, Sassenach...you seem to have the right idea. It is yours to pay. It is your horse and you entrusted it to someone else because you didn't have time/facility/skills to do the job yourself. You selected them and with that came all sorts of risks. As you have now experienced.

The 'lots of people" you know who are saying not to pay are the people I would avoid getting their opinion in future.

 

[dominobrown]

Wow dominobrown, I am so sorry to read what you are experiencing. You hit the nail on the head re racehorse trainers. They dont take that type of rubbish from an owner if a horse gets injured. That awful threatening behaviour of aggressive texts, it's not acceptable. Have you any support?

No not really, I have spoken to my insurance company regularly. The person has also phoned them (insurance company) and asked how they plan to pay, how much they are paying and asked details about my insurance policy etc which strangely they wouldn’t talk to the person ( I am being sarcastic). Also they were rude to the vet who had been treating the pony that he actually just left the scene when the person was here. I had to ring the vet practice to apologise for the behaviour.
i am not sure whether I need to get a solicitor involved to act as point of communication. I dread being at the yard in case they show up but dread being off the yard Incas they come and take a horse etc.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

i am not sure whether I need to get a solicitor involved

I would definitely get a solicitor involved and possibly the police too.

 

[Goldenstar]

DB , you need to speak to a solicitor and inform the police .
Some people are just awful .

 

[Old school]

Dominobrown that really is an awful way to be living. I can sincerely empathise. You have done nothing wrong and must believe in yourself. It is your yard and you should not be intimidated about being there. If they rock up, get on your Ned Kelly suit and stand your ground. As above get some professional advice. It will empower you to have the confidence to stand up to the shyster of an owner.

 

[ihatework]

No not really, I have spoken to my insurance company regularly. The person has also phoned them (insurance company) and asked how they plan to pay, how much they are paying and asked details about my insurance policy etc which strangely they wouldn’t talk to the person ( I am being sarcastic). Also they were rude to the vet who had been treating the pony that he actually just left the scene when the person was here. I had to ring the vet practice to apologise for the behaviour.
i am not sure whether I need to get a solicitor involved to act as point of communication. I dread being at the yard in case they show up but dread being off the yard Incas they come and take a horse etc.

Utterley shocking. On principal I would be getting police and solicitor involved and playing hardball with them. Do not accept their shit. Your insurance should get you some legal advice. Take them to court to get any monies owed.

 

[rabatsa]

I would also give them notice that if they do not pay outstanding livery and vet bills, all of them, by a certain date, then the pony will be sold to cover the costs and they will recieve the balance.

I am getting cranky in my old age.

 

[honetpot]

Having had a problem with a non paying livery I would get tough, even if you lose money and get rid quick, it comes to a point where worrying about what they are going to do next is not worth any money. I would serve the non payer with notice to quit, they have already broken their contract by not paying, so I think reasonable is seven days, and then go for abandonment, which is then about another seven days.
What I have learnt about these people is they are hoppers, I track a couple I know of on the internet, they try it on somewhere but know exactly what the law is. The clever ones do not run up debts in their partners name, so manage to keep renting property, but cause problems for none payment in their own name, at livery or none payment for fodder. As soon as you start a legal process, they hop somewhere else, just far enough so people do not know them locally, but they or their partner can still get work.
To sue you for payment they have to give their address and contact details, that's the last thing they want, because they do not want you to counter sue for the non-payment.
In the last recession, one local racehorse trainer was left with non-payment for several horses in training owned by one owner, so that would have been about £1500 a week in training fees, I have no idea how they resolved it.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I'm sorry DB that you are having problems with non-payers. Whatever the rights and wrongs of their claim that you should pay the vet bills, they should certainly be paying gheir livery bills. I would get legal advice ASAP and work out the best way to get your livery fees off them.
Contracts should stipulate who is responsible for the health and welfare and animals taken for breaking/sales livery, which IMHO are different from even full livery.

A benefit of dealing with these things through insurance companies is that the heat should be taken out if the situation by involving a 3rd party.

 

[MuffettMischief]

Did you specifically ask for the horse not to be turned out in a paddock with electric fencing? If you did and this happened, then I could understand you wanting them to cover bills but if you didn’t and you knew that was their set up, why would they be expected to pay? If that was the case then not a single yard in the country would do full livery. Horses could injure themselves in a padded room and it’s just unfortunate. The fact it was sales livery makes no difference and you were happy enough to send the horse there in the first place. Things like this will be the death of livery yards!

 

[Orangehorse]

I was at a clinic with my horse. I wanted him to be stabled overnight, the YO did not as it would have meant bringing in one of their's overnight for company. So they had made a little paddock for him, with electric fencing. All was quiet until 11.00 p.m. when mayhem broke out. It ended up with my horse breaking out of his paddock, galloping back up the the stable yard, crashed into and bending a metal gate and ending up in the stable yard. I was blissfully unaware in a B&B and it was the YO who had to get up and round up all the horses.

Mine was injured, I was furious, but I had agreed that he was turned out, even reluctantly. Very fortunately his injury was pretty minor even though he had an impressively swollen leg and a £150 vet's bill (at least 10 years ago) and I was able to travel him home. He stayed in the second night too! Was I given a refund? No. Horses do things in fields, it is part of owning horses.

 

[Annagain]

No not really, I have spoken to my insurance company regularly. The person has also phoned them (insurance company) and asked how they plan to pay, how much they are paying and asked details about my insurance policy etc which strangely they wouldn’t talk to the person ( I am being sarcastic). Also they were rude to the vet who had been treating the pony that he actually just left the scene when the person was here. I had to ring the vet practice to apologise for the behaviour.
i am not sure whether I need to get a solicitor involved to act as point of communication. I dread being at the yard in case they show up but dread being off the yard Incas they come and take a horse etc.

I would definitely get a solicitor on board. I'm assuming you have a contract in place? Does that say anything about who is liable for vets bills in case of injury (negligence notwithstanding)? It would be a useful fall back if it does.

 

[Abacus]

Was the fence actually electrified at the time? It would be negligent if not connected, as the horse would have less respect for the fencing (the quickest of Googles about electric fencing will show that electric tape or wire is dangerous if not electrified all the time). Hard to imagine most horses getting so badly wrapped up in an electrified wire or tape as the shock is quick and they move away from it.

 

[Birker2020]

Hard to imagine most horses getting so badly wrapped up in an electrified wire or tape as the shock is quick and they move away from it.

I'm not sure this is the case, at least not with mains electric. I know that the reason firemen shuffle along the wall of a burnt out or smoked filled building with their palms facing inwards towards the centre of the room is so that upon touching a live wire their hands will jump away from the voltage instead of being drawn in as their muscles would lock and they are unable to release the wire as their muscles clamp up. I can remember this from a talk we were given at junior school about fire!

This is why I always switch the fencing off whenever I go into my horses paddock.

https://www.agrisellex.co.uk/blogs/blog/are-electric-fences-a-serious-safety-risk-to-humans

The second problem with standard mains electricity is the fact that muscles - human and animal - will tense up when coming in contact with any type of current. There is no way to release from the contact in that case. You are just physically clamped on to the source, and try as you might, you can't let go - the steady voltage keeps your muscle locked and with the high current - You will fry.

 

[ycbm]

I'm not sure this is the case, at least not with mains electric. I know that the reason firemen shuffle along the wall of a burnt out or smoked filled building with their palms facing inwards towards the centre of the room is so that upon touching a live wire their hands will jump away from the voltage instead of being drawn in as their muscles would lock and they are unable to release the wire as their muscles clamp up. I can remember this from a talk we were given at junior school about fire!

This is why I always switch the fencing off whenever I go into my horses paddock.

https://www.agrisellex.co.uk/blogs/blog/are-electric-fences-a-serious-safety-risk-to-humans

The second problem with standard mains electricity is the fact that muscles - human and animal - will tense up when coming in contact with any type of current. There is no way to release from the contact in that case. You are just physically clamped on to the source, and try as you might, you can't let go - the steady voltage keeps your muscle locked and with the high current - You will fry.

There is no comparison between touching a 220/240v cable which is permanently live and a 5/10,000v wire which is live only for a fraction of a second. It would take superhuman powers to touch and hold on with an electric stock fence.
.
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[Noble]

The fence is not mains electricity, the transformer/energiser is powered from the mains not a battery and transformed into a high voltage low current source of power for the fence. It is completely safe other than a rather large tickle! As YCBM has said no comparison.

 

[Red-1]

No not really, I have spoken to my insurance company regularly. The person has also phoned them (insurance company) and asked how they plan to pay, how much they are paying and asked details about my insurance policy etc which strangely they wouldn’t talk to the person ( I am being sarcastic). Also they were rude to the vet who had been treating the pony that he actually just left the scene when the person was here. I had to ring the vet practice to apologise for the behaviour.
i am not sure whether I need to get a solicitor involved to act as point of communication. I dread being at the yard in case they show up but dread being off the yard Incas they come and take a horse etc.

I am really sorry that you are in this position. I would call 101 and report this as harassment.

As far as everything else goes, try not to stress about it. You are insured, leave it in their hands. That would be all I would say to this client, "it is in the hands of my insurers," other than to give them notice to remove the horse. If they don't then I would serve an abandonment notice, dispose of the horse after it is up, sale of it is fit, PTS if it is not recoverable.

I would also go to small claims court for the livery.

I hope OP is still reading and realising how much angst a spurious claim such as theirs will cause grief. They already knew they should pay the bill but have allowed 'other people' to infiltrate.

Several people have asked if I would do livery here. A big fat nope!

If you feel you have to get out of the game, then that is understandable. I wouldn't rush to make any decisions right now though. Maybe talk to your GP, so they can signpost you for more help?

 

[Abacus]

I'm not sure this is the case, at least not with mains electric. I know that the reason firemen shuffle along the wall of a burnt out or smoked filled building with their palms facing inwards towards the centre of the room is so that upon touching a live wire their hands will jump away from the voltage instead of being drawn in as their muscles would lock and they are unable to release the wire as their muscles clamp up. I can remember this from a talk we were given at junior school about fire!

This is why I always switch the fencing off whenever I go into my horses paddock.

https://www.agrisellex.co.uk/blogs/blog/are-electric-fences-a-serious-safety-risk-to-humans

The second problem with standard mains electricity is the fact that muscles - human and animal - will tense up when coming in contact with any type of current. There is no way to release from the contact in that case. You are just physically clamped on to the source, and try as you might, you can't let go - the steady voltage keeps your muscle locked and with the high current - You will fry.

I only meant that the horse would get a (bearable) shock and voluntarily move away from it. With a non-electrified wire, they may well for example stick a leg through when grazing and end up tangled.

 

[Birker2020]

There is no comparison between touching a 220/240v cable which is permanently live and a 5/10,000v wire which is live only for a fraction of a second. It would take superhuman powers to touch and hold on with an electric stock fence.
.
.

Just quoting what the link said when I skimmed read it earlier.
I've never touched it with my palm so wouldn't know.

 

[ycbm]

Just quoting what the link said when I skimmed read it earlier.
I've never touched it with my palm so wouldn't know.

Unfortunately part of the linked article that you quoted does not apply to electric stock fencing, as the article itself makes very clear, if anyone reads it. You selectively copied from a piece explaining why mains electricity for powering electric stock fencing is not dangerous. Two paragraphs above what you quoted, it says (their bolding)

Using electricity immediately conjures up the idea that it is dangerous, touching an electric fence leaves a vivid and painful memory and the voltages are also high (+5000 volts) in comparison with standard mains electricity (220 volts), because of this most will assume that the risk to life and limb must also be high. In fact, the opposite is true.

.

 

[Fred66]

I don’t think there was negligence. Just an unfortunate thing

I would expect to pay the vet but would be looking for a reduction in livery cost whilst out of action.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I would imagine they have a duty of care to your horse so they should be liable. Sorry this has happened to you, so unfortunate

 

[mariew]

Did you have a contract at all? If so does it include what happens in the event of injury? Nightmare and hope you resolve it.

 

[Winters100]

My horses are on what I would term part livery, everything done except for riding them, and many owners do not attend the yard on a regular basis. Personally I would expect to pay if anything happened to them, unless of course I had specifically asked them not to turn out. Sorry that you have this, a complete pain, but sadly it sounds like just one of those things that horses do.

 

[lannerch]

I would imagine they have a duty of care to your horse so they should be liable. Sorry this has happened to you, so unfortunate

How!

 

[Birker2020]

Unfortunately part of the linked article that you quoted does not apply to electric stock fencing, as the article itself makes very clear, if anyone reads it. You selectively copied from a piece explaining why mains electricity for powering electric stock fencing is not dangerous. Two paragraphs above what you quoted, it says (their bolding)


.

okay apologies everyone. I quickly skimmed read it.

Shoot me dead

 

[ycbm]

I would imagine they have a duty of care to your horse so they should be liable. Sorry this has happened to you, so unfortunate

Yes of course they have a duty of care but to be liable for injury to a horse they have to have breached that duty of care. There's nothing unusual about turning horses out with electric fencing and sadly nothing much unusual in horses hurting themselves on it. Nothing which has been written about this accident suggests that there was any negligence on the part of the yard, and without negligence there is no liability.

With the number of people who think that there is liability on the part of livery yards when there has been no negligence, it's a wonder anyone would run a livery yard at all.
.

 

[lannerch]

With the number of people who think that there is liability on the part of livery yards when there has been no negligence, it's a wonder anyone would run a livery yard at all.
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Lol if a livery yard was liable I would have saved a fortune in my life with my accident prone chums

 

[Rowreach]

Yes of course they have a duty of care but to be liable for injury to a horse they have to have breached that duty of care. There's nothing unusual about turning horses out with electric fencing and sadly nothing much unusual in horses hurting themselves on it. Nothing which has been written about this accident suggests that there was any negligence on the part of the yard, and without negligence there is no liability.

With the number of people who think that there is liability on the part of livery yards when there has been no negligence, it's a wonder anyone would run a livery yard at all.
.

It's one of the reasons I, and many others, stopped.

 

[Winters100]

Yes of course they have a duty of care but to be liable for injury to a horse they have to have breached that duty of care. There's nothing unusual about turning horses out with electric fencing and sadly nothing much unusual in horses hurting themselves on it. Nothing which has been written about this accident suggests that there was any negligence on the part of the yard, and without negligence there is no liability.

With the number of people who think that there is liability on the part of livery yards when there has been no negligence, it's a wonder anyone would run a livery yard at all.
.

Exactly. And those who did stay in business would just not allow turnout if they were liable for paddock injuries!