Sarcoids - this is WAR!

ycbm

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When I bought Ludo as a two year old he had no sarcoids. A couple of weeks after bringing him home he developed two tiny ones, one under the girth and another in front of his sheath, which I removed. All was well until I started taking him to lessons. After the first one, he popped up a marble on his belly. I banded that one and started treating four tiny fly bite scars on his chest and neck, just in case. Two of them reacted, two didn't. So now I've got a serious case of multiple sarcoids, a horse who is clearly riddled with the bovine papilloma virus and pops them out when stressed, and a waiting game to see how many more.....

After the next lesson, he popped two marbles out in his armpit and a 'fly bite' on his chest very close to it. Banded the marbles, treated the pip. The marbles had a root much bigger than themselves, that died behind the banding, so treated that and eventually a horrendous looking lump fell out, more than two inches in length. He's doing a great job of healing the hole and it's just a scabby line in the crease of his elbow now after a week. The other banded one fell off with a much smaller and shallower root and is healing nicely.

At this point I'm checking him all over daily, and find another three tiny pips on the central line of his belly on different days. Treated and fell off easily, not even a hole left. Then one on his sheath, teeny tiny. More a mark in the skin than anything, but i knew it wasn't there the day before. Treated and now has a patch of missing skin bigger than a ten pence piece, so it was already spreading out under the skin. Same with another on the inside of the hind leg. So the count is now thirteen and I'm holding my breath waiting for the next....

This morning, inside hind leg, an inch above the lost skin from treating the pip, a perfect circle of a very slightly different colour in the hair. An occult one. That's now been treated and if it doesn't shed, I'll eat my hat.

This is WAR! I'm not losing this wonderful horse to skin cancer. I don't care if he ends up looking like a patchwork quilt, it's not going to take him out on my watch 😠😡😠.

I'm sharing this because I'm so devastated to be fighting this battle on a second horse in five years, and this one is very special, and the best I have ever ridden. And you know what they say, a problem shared is two people with a problem 😏. Thanks in advance for any support.





Footnotes.

In case anyone is wondering about the legality of me doing this, it is legal for the owner of a horse to carry out minor medical treatment with non prescription medication.

In case you think you should try messing with a sarcoid, be aware that sarcoids can be very dangerous things if you annoy them. I have, unfortunately for me, decades of experience in removing them, with results verified by several vets. Nobody should try removing sarcoids themselves without an experienced person to assist them, and preferably under the supervision of a vet. Please be cautious around sarcoids.
 

Asha

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what a bloody nightmare, no advice from me as I've never dealt with them. But the girl who rides for us has a horse who is an absolute super star he also has a serious amount of them. She had them lasered last summer, and more have popped up.

feel for you, hope you find a solution, maybe they are just juvenile ones and will disappear as he gets older ? Good luck
 

ycbm

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Sarcoids aren't a specifically juvenile disease Asha, I think you might be thinking of juvenile warts, which are similar in that they are viral, and a papilloma virus at that, but very rarely cause any problems and certainly aren't a form of skin cancer.

With luck and a following wind, if I can keep killing every new one before it takes hold, and can get him to six or seven years old in one piece, he's likely to have developed enough of an immune response never to get any more. The more people who cross their fingers for that outcome, the better!
 
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ycbm

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Out of interest OP, how are you treating them?


I have written about this before, and it sounds very simple, but please don't anyone copy unless you are absolutely sure you know what you are doing, but all it takes is copper sulphate. I have no idea why Liverpool cream uses 5-fluorouracil and heavy metals when copper sulphate alone seems to do the job just as well with a lot less pain, not to mention money. Maybe they just never thought to try it. I discovered it quite by accident decades ago after treating a bit of 'proud flesh' I later realised wasn't proud flesh at all, but a sarcoid.
 

ycbm

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A heartbreaking situation. :( My lovely grey has also had sarcoids and fungal lumps treated and I'm always dreading finding new lumps or areas of rough skin.

I hope you are able to successfully treat Ludo.


I feel for you every time you post about a new lump, F. Fingers crossed you get no more.
 

Carrottom

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Haven't had much experience other than juvenile warts on a three year old, but if the stress of lessons is causing them would it be possible to take a break from these for a few months. If he is still young maybe it wouldn't be much of a setback.
 

Goldenstar

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i am assuming you are dealing with nodular sarcoids
Fatty has this issue he had a lot of extensive lasering I think it’s five or six years since the last one .
The thing with banding is it never gets the root .
With it was definitely tied up with the virus that damaged his heart when he was eight and the non sweating syndrome.
All fatties issues left him immune suppressed
At 11 the vet suggested we tried some immune boosting shots it may be coincidence but he’s had non since we worked hard to keep him as stress free as possible .

Professor Dixon once said to me what’s the difference between true love and sarcoids .......sarcoids are forever .
 

ycbm

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Several types, GS. One occult, several verruchal, three balls.

I'm wondering what to do now re stress. He's four and every new experience is going to stress him to some extent. He didn't seem to be a stressy horse, but he obviously internalizes it.

I'm considering something immune boosting, maybe a sarcoid herbal mix.
 

Goldenstar

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Have you run a blood profile we did this with Fatty he often had raised white cells when you could not work out why
 

ester

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They have certainly researched it though the full paper isn't available. It always gets included with silver nitrate with regards to good success but also dramatic failures.
 

ycbm

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Haven't had much experience other than juvenile warts on a three year old, but if the stress of lessons is causing them would it be possible to take a break from these for a few months. If he is still young maybe it wouldn't be much of a setback.


Well he's on an enforced break until his armpit is healed enough to ride, then I need to decide what to do next.

Holding off on outings is obviously an option, but they're going to stress him the first time they happen whenever he goes, and it's possible it might be better to get him destressed by the going out as quickly as I can. It's a balance that I have to make a decision about.
 

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Aciclovir has been a Godsend for my chap. Soon as they appear I pop some on. None have advanced further and some have just upped and left. I buy large tubes from the vet which last ages.

This is a good idea and it has the advantage of making it much less likely that flys carry them to another horse .
Gent has one on the inside on the top of his NS foreleg .
We started his second treatment with Liverpool cream yesterday it was quite swollen this morning so you have company
 

ycbm

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They have certainly researched it though the full paper isn't available. It always gets included with silver nitrate with regards to good success but also dramatic failures.


Interesting. I'd love to see the research. I've used copper sulphate on upwards of fifty sarcoids so far and no failures. You do sometimes have to get very aggressive with it, though, and apply daily, and neat, if it tries to regrow.

This one is a regrowth. At one point in time in was filling in again this size every two days, but it gave up on the fifth attempt and is a small scar now:

IMG_20180404_190444.jpgIMG_20180404_190507.jpg
 
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Pinkvboots

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Sorry to hear this what a bloody nightmare:( the 2 I have only ever seen on the inside of my geldings leg luckily went a3ay on there own, not even 100per cent sure they were sarcoid.

Someone I know uses the global herbs sarcoid supplement and rates it.
 

ycbm

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Aciclovir has been a Godsend for my chap. Soon as they appear I pop some on. None have advanced further and some have just upped and left. I buy large tubes from the vet which last ages.


I've never even heard of this. I'll do some research, thank you.
 

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If you're considering the immune boost/resistance building angle then discussing this with Nick Thompson (google the holistic Vet) may be well worth while. I've treated my youngster successfully with a specific remedy he targeted at the virus and at encouraging a balanced immune response to it. We're 9 months clear. Very cost effective and non invasive to, thinking of your stress and his ;)
As an engineer (by trade an inclination) I found Nick's approach and rational very credible and the results were great. Just my experience, but its another useful option :)
 

missmatch

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First post on google. Copied and pasted.

It was the sarcoid expert vet who started us on it and it has proved it’s worth and effectiveness many times over.

I came across this very interesting article which I thought I would share with you. I have started treatment on my mare Polly who has had sarcoids on her udders for the past 4 years. We have "managed" them using initially Thuja cream and then with some success, Crest Toothpaste. They didn't grow but at the same time they didn't shrink too much. Since starting treatment with Aciclovir a few weeks ago the sarcoids have shrunk by appx 25%
Another option for treating equine sarcoids is suggested by a report from Austria which described the use of aciclovir cream.
Aciclovir (or acyclovir) is one of the most common anti-viral medications, being used primarily against herpesvirus infections such as herpes simplex in humans.
Dr S Stadler, of the Pferdeklinik Tillysburg, Austria, and colleagues at the University of Veterinary Medicine, Austria and University of Leipzig, Germany reported the findings of their research in the Veterinary Record.
In total, 47 sarcoids, on 22 horses, were included in the study. They had been referred to the Pferdeklinik Tillysburg for treatment between 2006 and 2009. The diagnosis was confirmed by the presence of bovine papilloma virus type 1 or 2 (BVP 1/2) on swabs taken from the lesions.
The sarcoids were treated by topical application of 5% aciclovir cream once daily for between two and six months.
All 47 sarcoids improved in response to treatment. Complete regression was achieved in 32 lesions (68%) - these were mainly occult or verrucous type lesions. Partial remission occurred in 15 cases (10 occult and 5 mixed sarcoids). By June 2010 there had been no reports of any cases having recurred.
Thinner lesions appeared to respond better. The authors comment that this suggests that aciclovir's action is limited by its ability to penetrate deeper tissue.
Aciclovir has benefits over other some other treatment options for sarcoids in that it is relatively inexpensive, with no side effects, and can be easily applied.
In conclusion, the authors propose using aciclovir for treating mild-type sarcoids and in combination with other therapeutic options for more complicated cases.

For more details see:
Successful treatment of equine sarcoids by topical aciclovir application
S Stadler, C Kainzbauer, R Haralambus, W Brehm, E Hainisch, S Brandt
Veterinary Record (2011) 168, 187
doi: 10.1136/vr.c5430
 

Goldenstar

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First post on google. Copied and pasted.

It was the sarcoid expert vet who started us on it and it has proved it’s worth and effectiveness many times over.

I came across this very interesting article which I thought I would share with you. I have started treatment on my mare Polly who has had sarcoids on her udders for the past 4 years. We have "managed" them using initially Thuja cream and then with some success, Crest Toothpaste. They didn't grow but at the same time they didn't shrink too much. Since starting treatment with Aciclovir a few weeks ago the sarcoids have shrunk by appx 25%
Another option for treating equine sarcoids is suggested by a report from Austria which described the use of aciclovir cream.
Aciclovir (or acyclovir) is one of the most common anti-viral medications, being used primarily against herpesvirus infections such as herpes simplex in humans.
Dr S Stadler, of the Pferdeklinik Tillysburg, Austria, and colleagues at the University of Veterinary Medicine, Austria and University of Leipzig, Germany reported the findings of their research in the Veterinary Record.
In total, 47 sarcoids, on 22 horses, were included in the study. They had been referred to the Pferdeklinik Tillysburg for treatment between 2006 and 2009. The diagnosis was confirmed by the presence of bovine papilloma virus type 1 or 2 (BVP 1/2) on swabs taken from the lesions.
The sarcoids were treated by topical application of 5% aciclovir cream once daily for between two and six months.
All 47 sarcoids improved in response to treatment. Complete regression was achieved in 32 lesions (68%) - these were mainly occult or verrucous type lesions. Partial remission occurred in 15 cases (10 occult and 5 mixed sarcoids). By June 2010 there had been no reports of any cases having recurred.
Thinner lesions appeared to respond better. The authors comment that this suggests that aciclovir's action is limited by its ability to penetrate deeper tissue.
Aciclovir has benefits over other some other treatment options for sarcoids in that it is relatively inexpensive, with no side effects, and can be easily applied.
In conclusion, the authors propose using aciclovir for treating mild-type sarcoids and in combination with other therapeutic options for more complicated cases.

For more details see:
Successful treatment of equine sarcoids by topical aciclovir application
S Stadler, C Kainzbauer, R Haralambus, W Brehm, E Hainisch, S Brandt
Veterinary Record (2011) 168, 187
doi: 10.1136/vr.c5430

Thanks for posting that .
 

ihatework

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I think when they get like this you are talking a holistic approach.

If stress is triggering things then you may need to lay off the work until they are hopefully under control.

Having the horses immune system as robust as possible (can of worms!) but can’t hurt to try supplementing. I would run a standard hematolgy profile too.

Topical treatments for sure. But whilst you may have had success with copper sulphate before, there are always exceptions to the rule. If this is looking more aggressive I’d be inclined to ditch the copper sulphate and go for a more tried and tested method.

ETA - I wonder if vets have ever tried using any of the human interferon injections off label? Might be something to ask
 

Carrottom

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You can buy Aciclovir from the chemist, it is used for cold sores. Chemists own brand was slightly cheaper than from the vet. (she suggested this if it was successful and I wanted a bit more). It worked on the 3 year old's sheath.
 

meleeka

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If you're considering the immune boost/resistance building angle then discussing this with Nick Thompson (google the holistic Vet) may be well worth while. I've treated my youngster successfully with a specific remedy he targeted at the virus and at encouraging a balanced immune response to it. We're 9 months clear. Very cost effective and non invasive to, thinking of your stress and his ;)
As an engineer (by trade an inclination) I found Nick's approach and rational very credible and the results were great. Just my experience, but its another useful option :)
Mine still hasn’t developed immunity and he’s 20.

I have banded some myself but I’d be very worried if my horse had them popping up that often. Luckily we’ve had no new ones since the Liverpool cream but a small one under the skin on his sheath has grown to tomato size so it’s going to be a big job if I decide to get it removed.

Thanks for the info Suncat. My boy also headshakes too so I am very interested in immine treatment.
 

ycbm

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I think when they get like this you are talking a holistic approach.

If stress is triggering things then you may need to lay off the work until they are hopefully under control.

Having the horses immune system as robust as possible (can of worms!) but can’t hurt to try supplementing. I would run a standard hematolgy profile too.

Topical treatments for sure. But whilst you may have had success with copper sulphate before, there are always exceptions to the rule. If this is looking more aggressive I’d be inclined to ditch the copper sulphate and go for a more tried and tested method.

ETA - I wonder if vets have ever tried using any of the human interferon injections off label? Might be something to ask


It's no more aggressive than the paint horse I had with dozens of the damn things four years ago IHW. They're all under control, I'm just knocking them off one by one. I get a better non-return rate than is published with any treatment supplied by a vet, less apparent pain and good cosmetic results. Probably because I can attack it day after day of need be.

I don't know of any systemic treatment. I did wonder like you about Interferon.

I've been looking up the research and they seem to have identified that the susceptibility is genetic. High in quarter horses, like my paint. And this one is an Appy/trotter cross, which may make him higher risk if he's part QH which is not unlikely, but the trotter half is much less likely than the norm to get them, so why couldn't he have taken after his mother!!!
 

ycbm

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You can buy Aciclovir from the chemist, it is used for cold sores. Chemists own brand was slightly cheaper than from the vet. (she suggested this if it was successful and I wanted a bit more). It worked on the 3 year old's sheath.


Well blow me down. Zovirax cold sore cream is aciclovir.

Research suggests it works well if the lesion is thin, like an occult one.
 

ihatework

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Well blow me down. Zovirax cold sore cream is aciclovir.

Research suggests it works well if the lesion is thin, like an occult one.

Yes it is.
Most vets suggest to fill any craters from a shelled out / lasered sarcoid site with it but I’m not sure how effective it really is. Can’t hurt mind.
 

ycbm

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Mine still hasn’t developed immunity and he’s 20.

Sorry to hear that.

I have banded some myself but I’d be very worried if my horse had them popping up that often. Luckily we’ve had no new ones since the Liverpool cream but a small one under the skin on his sheath has grown to tomato size so it’s going to be a big job if I decide to get it removed.

It doesn't sound good that it is growing, and the size is very worrying unless you are talking about a cherry tomato.
 
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