Saturday at Aintree

[ycbm]

My final post on this thread but can I just point out that Blenheim last year had a higher risk of horse fatality than Aintree did this year. You need to look at the numbers objectively and calculate risk per starters but Aintree had 320 racing over the 3 days and Blenheim had 160 horses starting over both the short and long courses. Both had 3 fatalities.

Racing will always have a higher number of horse injuries because they have considerably more participants than other sports, therefore the most accurate way is to work out the risk per 1000 starters for each equine discipline, this balances out the participant bias.

Blenheim (2022) Risk of horse fatality per 1000 starters = 18.7 horses/1000 starters

Aintree (2023) Risk of horse fatality per 1000 starters 9.37 horses / 1000 starters

Unfortunately the data around showjumping, dressage, polo etc plus BE is hidden away somewhere by the governing bodies so I was unable to do a true comparison - unless someone can point me in the direction of it?

ETA: I’m not posting that as a justification but I think it is very important that the figures are looked at objectively. I would 100% welcome a reduction in the number of horses allowed to run as well as the removal of the whip (I actually did my MRes ethics module presentation and report on banning the whip).

No.

Sorry, just no.

That is NOT looking at the figures objectively, it's "lies, damned lies and statistics".

You cannot reasonably take one completely unrepresentative year at Blenheim and compare it with what happens in jump racing week after week after week.

You cannot judge the known outcome of an unlucky event and retrospectively call it the risk of competing at that event. The known risk of a death at Blenheim on starting was, statistically, close to zero. The known risk of a death at the GN was something under 1 in 50. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equine_fatalities_in_the_Grand_National

I'll say it again, if eventing killed multiple horses every weekend of the summer season, it wouldn't, imo, continue to run as a sport. And that's the true equivalent of NH racing compared to other horse sports.

 

[Clodagh]

Knowing that so far only one fatality probably shows to me that it wasn’t as bad as it looked. But it looked awful.
Gambird, your post is interesting and good to hear facts, but I do think horse owning people on here will pick up on things like water being poured in ears. I’m not going to go on every FB racing thread and post it.

 

[mariew]

There’s a difference between using horses for professional sports for human gain and keeping them as pets. It’s a straw man argument to suggest that without equestrian sports, horses would just cease to exist. It’s also not helpful. Equestrian sports need to improve their safety and welfare, and they won’t if their supporters just throw their arms up every time it’s suggested.

I guess it depends what you mean which is not clear. Horse riding by definition is a sport. So if you are talking about not allowing riding all together i would be very surprised if it didn't wipe out most horse owning and as a poster said above - relegate them to a few individuals in a zoo or the odd person with their own land. Just look at the Suffolk punch and other heavies. They are largely threatened breeds because they don't have a widely used purpose anymore.

Allowing some riding but not other types would be an absolute minefield to legislate.

The grand national is its own beast and I totally agree that at minimum it should be looked at the number of starters to reduce the chaos.

 

[tristar]

we thought it would be far more sensible to take off the tack walk round for a few minutes to allow the temperature to drop, then sponge lightly scrape and then add a high wicking rug, the horse would be dry in ten minutes, and warm at a stabilized temperature and the heart rate would have dropped.

water down the ears is a very bad experience.

 

[Sandstone1]

I guess it depends what you mean which is not clear. Horse riding by definition is a sport. So if you are talking about not allowing riding all together i would be very surprised if it didn't wipe out most horse owning and as a poster said above - relegate them to a few individuals in a zoo or the odd person with their own land. Just look at the Suffolk punch and other heavies. They are largely threatened breeds because they don't have a widely used purpose anymore.

Allowing some riding but not other types would be an absolute minefield to legislate.

The grand national is its own beast and I totally agree that at minimum it should be looked at the number of starters to reduce the chaos.

I do think racing aside that the ordinary horse owner is at some time in the future going to become very rare. Rising costs and lack of land plus the increasing danger of riding on the road means that the " Happy hacker" is going to become a thing of the past. I say that as someone who has had horses for 40+ years.

 

[Gamebird]

we thought it would be far more sensible to take off the tack walk round for a few minutes to allow the temperature to drop, then sponge lightly scrape and then add a high wicking rug, the horse would be dry in ten minutes, and warm at a stabilized temperature and the heart rate would have dropped.

Much work has been done on this, and it is science, so pretty incontrovertible. It started with research into rapid, aggressive cooling for the Atlanta Olympics in 1996, but has been reviewed and revised since then. Sponging and lightly scraping a hot horse is going to do nothing. You need to apply large quantities of cold water straight away, and keep applying them. No scraping, just keep the water going on. The horse will not be dry in 10mins - the horses' core body temperature is raised and remains so for quite some time, and they will actively continue to sweat after the cessation of exertion. Even once they are dry horses will often 'break out' again even quite some time after going back to the stables.

 

[EMSPony]

Knowing that so far only one fatality probably shows to me that it wasn’t as bad as it looked. But it looked awful.
Gambird, your post is interesting and good to hear facts, but I do think horse owning people on here will pick up on things like water being poured in ears. I’m not going to go on every FB racing thread and post it.

One horse dead with a broken neck. Two horses with career ending injuries, one needing surgery with no certainty of outcome. And is that the full story? Will every trainer report on the well-being of their National runner in the days to come? How bad does it need to get?

 

[Clodagh]

I do wish the horses didn’t have to go to the winners enclosure. Not after all races just after a marathon like this one.

 

[tristar]

Much work has been done on this, and it is science, so pretty incontrovertible. It started with research into rapid, aggressive cooling for the Atlanta Olympics in 1996, but has been reviewed and revised since then. Sponging and lightly scraping a hot horse is going to do nothing. You need to apply large quantities of cold water straight away, and keep applying them. No scraping, just keep the water going on. The horse will not be dry in 10mins - the horses' core body temperature is raised and remains so for quite some time, and they will actively continue to sweat after the cessation of exertion. Even once they are dry horses will often 'break out' again even quite some time after going back to the stables.

yes we are aware that horses break out in a sweat later, if not not sufficiently cooled thats why the allowing the temperature to drop before sponging is effective, without shocking the system.

its all about the time scale and effort put into the procedure

 

[tristar]

One horse dead with a broken neck. Two horses with career ending injuries, one needing surgery with no certainty of outcome. And is that the full story? Will every trainer report on the well-being of their National runner in the days to come? How bad does it need to get?

so true.

sadly the full story is hidden

 

[Gamebird]

yes we are aware that horses break out in a sweat later, if not not sufficiently cooled thats why the allowing the temperature to drop before sponging is effective, without shocking the system.

its all about the time scale and effort put into the procedure

I don't want to start an argument, but copious research shows the opposite. Cold water, large quantities, ASAP. And repeat.

 

[Tiddlypom]

.

I do wish the horses didn’t have to go to the winners enclosure. Not after all races just after a marathon like this one.

Absolutely this. The walk up to and the winners enclosure itself is a nightmare scene full of muppets. Poor exhausted winner is mobbed by shrieking drunken fans and connections and made to stand about for photos instead of being immediately dismounted and handed to the stable team to be cooled off and checked over.

Totally ghastly. If racing truly had the best interests of the horses at heart this horrible charade would long have been consigned to the history books.

 

[luckyoldme]

When those horses were walked around the paddock before the race it was a certainty that at least one fit and healthy competitor would be dead within the hour.
It was such a certainty that there could have been bets placed on which horse it would be.
Anyone who entered a horse into that race knew that and was prepared to take that risk.
I suppose it comes down to wether you believe that's ok or not.

 

[sakura]

I guess it depends what you mean which is not clear. Horse riding by definition is a sport. So if you are talking about not allowing riding all together i would be very surprised if it didn't wipe out most horse owning and as a poster said above - relegate them to a few individuals in a zoo or the odd person with their own land. Just look at the Suffolk punch and other heavies. They are largely threatened breeds because they don't have a widely used purpose anymore.

Allowing some riding but not other types would be an absolute minefield to legislate.

The grand national is its own beast and I totally agree that at minimum it should be looked at the number of starters to reduce the chaos.

I meant using horses as professional athletes - where people’s whole career quite literally rests on their backs. But yes, going forward the social license for all horse riding will no doubt come into question as our relationship with animals continues to evolve.

I find a lot of riding schools unsavoury these days.

 

[Upthecreek]

The bottom line is some people think animals are expendable for sport and entertainment and some people don’t. That is not to say that people who race, event or whatever don’t love their horses, but for them it’s a risk worth taking. Both sides of the argument make good and valid points. We can put mitigations in place to reduce the risk of deaths and serious injuries, but for people who are against risking the lives of animals for sport and entertainment, stopping them altogether is probably the only satisfactory outcome.

 

[Chianti]

I agree that some of the commentary was really poor but those commentators are entrenched in racing so their views are not really unexpected. And, the vast majority of the crowd were not sympathetic to the protest; those people are 'the public' too. The public perception of racing is very, very varied and it isn't a huge and successful industry without massive public support.

I think most of those in the public who support racing do so because they can bet on the outcome.

 

[AmyMay]

But no grandstand with thousands of people making a racket on top

I agree. There’s no comparison at all.

 

[Kunoichi73]

I think most of those in the public who support racing do so because they can bet on the outcome.

I think this is particularly true of the GN. A lot of people round here don't go to watch it (or the other races of the meet). They go to be seen, to get dressed up, to drink, to bet and to be able to tell their mates they went to the races. They are not particularly horse lovers and horse welfare is probably something they never think about. I don't know whether the actions of the protesters will change that. In some cases, the reaction will be more about having their day ruined.

I don't know whether the protesters have done themselves or their cause any good by the disruptive action or if they'd have been better to stick to more peaceful protests at the entrances. Horse Racing's publicity machine will be much better than that of the protesters and if they choose to push the idea the the death of the horse was due to the delay, then the animal rights case will suffer.

I do think racing needs to have a long, hard look at itself on many levels, particularly in this case about how the protests were covered and the language being used by the commentators. The comparison to the risks in human sports really wound me up. Horses can't give informed consent, people can and can assess the risks (not that they always do).

 

[ycbm]

..... the vast majority of the crowd were not sympathetic to the protest; those people are 'the public' too. The public perception of racing is very, very varied and it isn't a huge and successful industry without massive public support.

I'm sorry, but I almost laughed out loud at this.

The crowd had paid to be there. How likely do you feel it would be that they would be sympathetic to a protest disrupting what they had paid to see?

The massive public support is for betting. If the punters were aware of what racing really entailed for the horses, I doubt they would be as massively in support of it.

 

[Chianti]

I used to adore racing - I was in love with Kauto Star and thought Frankel was one of nature's miracles. I took Cheltenham week off as annual leave every year and was glued to the TV. I now can't bear to watch. I think that's due to the arguments made recently about how humans use horses in all sports - not just racing- and why we need to re-evaluate this. I'm sick of hearing the 'they're treated like kings' argument. They may be, but horses want to be treated like horses - not humans. If race horses are so happy with their lives then why are up to 90% of them likely to have gastric ulcers? Something, somewhere must be wrong with the lives they are living- maybe it's the lack of friends, forage and freedom. I once read that the unluckiest thing to happen to horses was that they had no verbal way to indicate their distress. They can't whine like a dog or yowl like a cat. If the parade rings were full of horses whining or howling then maybe people would get the message. We wouldn't accept the frequent deaths of an animal in a sport or past time in any other species. If dogs were dropping dead doing agility competitions then there would be an outcry. But horses? They must love it or you couldn't make them do it.

 

[Above the snowline]

I’m pretty sure Lucinda Russell and her team know the right way to cool down a horse

 

[Snowfilly]

I'm sorry, but I almost laughed out loud at this.

The crowd had paid to be there. How likely do you feel it would be that they would be sympathetic to a protest disrupting what they had paid to see?

The massive public support is for betting. If the punters were aware of what racing really entailed for the horses, I doubt they would be as massively in support of it.

I doubt it. A lot of people are aware of what the meat industry entails for animals but refuse to change or adapt their lifestyles one iota. In the main, most people don’t care about most animals.

 

[ycbm]

I doubt it. A lot of people are aware of what the meat industry entails for animals but refuse to change or adapt their lifestyles one iota. In the main, most people don’t care about most animals.

I don't agree. I don't think people are aware, I think they close their eyes to it. We even have horse owners on this forum refusing to accept the fundamental fact that National Hunt racing is far more dangerous for horses than any other horse sport.

 

[Sandstone1]

I don't agree. I don't think people are aware, I think they close their eyes to it. We even have horse owners on this forum refusing to accept the fundamental fact that National Hunt racing is far more dangerous for horses than any other horse sport.

Very true. There is a old saying. "There are none so blind as those who will not see"

 

[paisley]

I suspect racing will now have to have contingency planning for a course hold- obviously in eventing we know how to manage but there should have been time for horses and staff to wash and cool off and reset.
It might be helpful to calculate the average number of fallers at the first (last 10 years?), and reduce the field by that many.
Have a timed distance to the first (with penalties of a length etc) that means all runners have to go steady and not the awful cavalry charge that dry conditions cause with the inevitable pile up.
I honestly think yesterday was the worst GN I’ve watched.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Can't say the second owners comments are that great, seems like because they had a winner all is fine...

'They're looked after like kings' - Hill Sixteen's owner defends sport despite sad Grand National loss

Hill Sixteen's owner Jimmy Fyffe has defended the sport's actions and record on horse welfare following an emotional day at Aintree on Saturday,... Read More

www.racingpost.com

CG owner came across well saying he wants to do everything he can to save him so he gets a retirement. Hopefully Recite owner is the same

 

[Clodagh]

I’m sorry if I’ve missed this up thread but did Hill Sixteen die of a heart attack?

 

[scats]

When those horses were walked around the paddock before the race it was a certainty that at least one fit and healthy competitor would be dead within the hour.
It was such a certainty that there could have been bets placed on which horse it would be.
Anyone who entered a horse into that race knew that and was prepared to take that risk.
I suppose it comes down to wether you believe that's ok or not.

Every year I watch I think this. I see them walking around the paddock and think “one of you will be dead in 15 minutes”.
It’s not a nice thought but it’s true.

 

[Upthecreek]

I don't agree. I don't think people are aware, I think they close their eyes to it. We even have horse owners on this forum refusing to accept the fundamental fact that National Hunt racing is far more dangerous for horses than any other horse sport.

I’m not sure how relevant the danger level between different horse sports is to the average person who has no involvement or interest in any of them. The statistics speak for themselves, but the fact remains that horses die or are seriously injured in all equestrian sports. I’m not sure the fact that the numbers are less in some than in others makes any real difference to the opinion of the general public. Generally it will depend what people see on the news or read in the papers after the highest profile events like the Grand National and Badminton.

And commentators, trainers etc. are not helping anything by banging on about how well the horses are cared for. That is not what people were protesting about, they were trying to interfere with or stop the race. And if they had succeeded the horse that died would still be alive. It’s as simple as that for most people with no skin in the game.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I’m sorry if I’ve missed this up thread but did Hill Sixteen die of a heart attack?

No he didn't. Sadly he just didn't jump the fence and broke his neck. Which is bizarre as he has jumped round those fences a few times.