Saturday at Aintree

[TPO]

I’m not sure how relevant the danger level between different horse sports is to the average person who has no involvement or interest in any of them. The statistics speak for themselves, but the fact remains that horses die or are seriously injured in all equestrian sports. I’m not sure the fact that the numbers are less in some than in others makes any real difference to the opinion of the general public. Generally it will depend what people see on the news or read in the papers after the highest profile events like the Grand National and Badminton.

And commentators, trainers etc. are not helping anything by banging on about how well the horses are cared for. That is not what people were protesting about, they were trying to interfere with or stop the race. And if they had succeeded the horse that died would still be alive. It’s as simple as that for most people with no skin in the game.

There have been quite a few threads questioning the ethics of top level, and amateur level, competition, specifically eventing. I am sure that these will become more frequent.

This is a thread about racing and that is why other equestrian sports haven't been at the fore of the discussion.

I don't agree that the argument "more horses die doing/because of X so Y is ok".

Accidents happen and horses die. It's a sad fact of life. I dont agree with the ethics in sending a horse out where there is a high risk to their life be that around the GN, Badminton or a dangerous road.

What is being asked of them, in the name of making money and entertainment, is unethical and morally wrong IMO. I didn't always feel this way but I think society, and times, are changing. The net of Social Licensing is closing in*.

*it would be nice if it didn't take such a thing for animal welfare to be considered

Edited for autocorrect

 

[sakura]

Interestingly, the general opinion on social media (twitter) seems to be:
Racing fans - annoyed and angered at the protestors. Some wishing them harm.
Non racing fans - sad and frustrated about “another” horse death and glad the protestors were doing something

Obviously this is a broad interpretation on my part but it’s interesting to me none the less.

 

[Clodagh]

No he didn't. Sadly he just didn't jump the fence and broke his neck. Which is bizarre as he has jumped round those fences a few times.

That’s interesting, as he looked to lie still and not thrash, which led me to think it was a possibility. Still, instant death either way.

 

[MurphysMinder]

That’s interesting, as he looked to lie still and not thrash, which led me to think it was a possibility. Still, instant death either way.

Many years ago a friends youngster fell and broke her neck trying to jump into another field. She didn't move at all, think it was maybe total paralysis. She didn't die instantly though, we had to wait for what seemed forever for the vet. At least if Hill Sixteen didn't die instantly he would have been pts very quickly.

 

[stangs]

At the recent WHW conference "When does use become abuse?", they had a ex-government advisor do a talk on improving equestrianism's social license. His advice was to repeat the same simple and easy slogan to the public to get them on side, that the public generally doesn't do well with being given nuance. Can't remember what his answer was one of the racing blokes commented that raising has been doing this "they're treated like kings" stuff for yours but it hasn't made a difference in the increased scrutiny towards racing.

Either way, the public doesn't know half of the welfare issues found in raising - hell, even animal rights protestors probably don't know much beyond the obvious stuff. The prevalence of kissing spines, the quality of your average TB's feet, ulcers, etc: none of this gets raised in your average animal rights video. The other day, Jo Davis - one of few racehorse trainers I'd say I really respect - made a post that mentioned that "[runners] always come back with sore backs, that's just the nature of the racing saddle." It's daft, but I'd never even considered that before, which just goes to show how widespread the problems are.

That's not to say that those welfare issues can't be addressed. The fact that a bloke like Simon Earle exists is already a promising start, and, if anything, racing ought to be one of the best disciplines for improving welfare, because the money's there. I'm sure that if Godolphin one day decided they'd put all their horses on 24/7 turnout, and fund research into improving exercise saddles, the welfare of racehorses across the world would see an improvement as other trainers followed suit. Would it mean that the horses would be as passionate about their jobs as the fans are? No. But if you could have them living a horse-friendly life outside the racetrack, then you'd be more excused ethically to keep them in work (imo).

The other day, I was reading a book on the history of horsemanship in West Africa, where the author writes that

The royal dynasty of ancient Ghana kept no less than 1000 horses in their palace, where the animals slept upon mats, were tethered with silk cords, and had copper vessels to urinate into

Or an article on the history of horses in India listed the following feeds provided to horses at different times.

• Kichiris boiled with sugar and oil
• Roasted barley and grain dressed with butter and boiled cow's milk
• Two pounds of flour daily, one and a half pounds of sugar, and an additional half pound of ghee in the winter

In both cases, these were horses literally being treated like kings. They weren't tethered with silk or fed cooked food because their owners and carers wanted them to suffer, in the same way that racehorses aren't raced or kept stabled 24/7 so that they'll suffer. But we no longer feed horses raw sugar or tether them in palaces, because we know that that's not acceptable horsemanship. In the same way, with all the research available on horses, isn't it time for racing to also adjust - to stop treating their horses like kings, and to start treating them like horses?

(I should also add that I have nothing against the stable lasses, exercise riders, etc that work with racehorses. They have no say in how the horses are managed, and I’m sure that they do the best they can for the horses they care for. It’s the owners and the big trainers in particular, that need to be held accountable for their decisions regarding management and welfare.)

 

[toppedoff]

Cape Gentleman to be retire in the USA where owner lives

Cape Gentleman to spend his retirement in America

Cape Gentleman will head to America to spend his retirement with owner Pierre Manigault having sustained a career-ending injury in the Randox Grand National.

www.irishracing.com

 

[Fred66]

Mmm. The horses boiled over because of a15 minute delay at the start. It's a good job they don't go eventing.
.

Totally different sport, so the correlation is slightly irrelevant.

However all horses are different, some will have taken the delay in their stride others would have been massively wound up by it.

Trainers of horses that get wound up are likely to have sent theirs to the paddock at the last moment possible.

On a similar basis using your analogy to other sports some horses need 30+minutes to warm up for dressage, others need less than 5.

So considering Hillstreet Sixteens previous form you can understand why his trainer thinks that the delay may have impacted him, especially if the horse is one that needs as little time as possible in the paddock.

 

[Alwaysmoretoknow]

As a former professional I have got increasingly ambivalent about the 'tests' we put our competition horses through in all elite competitions. Could we not make it more about rewarding excellent training and rewarding really good management and a harmonious working partnership?
I used to love 4* eventing but now I have a bit of a cringe about some of the courses and the demands they put on our equine partners. Is it really necessary to create suck a risky environment to establish who is the most successful partnership? Ditto endurance and dressage.
The GN has always had a bit of a whiff of the Circus Maximus to me - 'enjoy the thrills and spills folks and a lovely day out!' without any real comprehension of the toll that this race can take on the runners. Yes some die on the course but how many suffer career/life ending injuries subsequently which are not reported?
Without doubt there are also many, many leisure horses and ponies kept and worked in inappropriate ways and this should also be addressed through education and, if necessary, legal enforcement.
We, as an industry and a sport/hobby, who proport to love our horses need to consider how we are viewed by all sorts of people, both knowledgeable and ignorant, if we want to be able to claim any sort of moral integrity in our continuing use of our equine partners and not be seen as explioters for either financial or egocentric gain.
I fully expect to be totally rinsed by putting up this post but I truly believe we need to be thinking things forward and showing everyone, whoever they may be, that we do have our horse's welfare at heart and all want to do the best for them all however we use them.

 

[Rowreach]

I honestly don't feel that CG's owners declaration that he will shower the horse with money to mend him so he can be retired to a field for the rest of his life is necessarily in CG's best interest. Who knows how he would cope with retirement, whether it's even possible, whether it's ethical.

But I guess for the majority of people it will sound like he's a wonderful caring owner who is looking after his broken horse.

 

[toppedoff]

I honestly don't feel that CG's owners declaration that he will shower the horse with money to mend him so he can be retired to a field for the rest of his life is necessarily in CG's best interest. Who knows how he would cope with retirement, whether it's even possible, whether it's ethical.

But I guess for the majority of people it will sound like he's a wonderful caring owner who is looking after his broken horse.

I'm curious to know if even transporting him to the US is possible for him

 

[fankino04]

I honestly don't feel that CG's owners declaration that he will shower the horse with money to mend him so he can be retired to a field for the rest of his life is necessarily in CG's best interest. Who knows how he would cope with retirement, whether it's even possible, whether it's ethical.

But I guess for the majority of people it will sound like he's a wonderful caring owner who is looking after his broken horse.

I think that really depends on the injury, which as far as we know hasn't been reported. You don't know if a horse will cope with retirement until you try it, I would certainly want to turn away a field sound horse into a herd to have the opportunity of a happy retirement wherever possible.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

That’s interesting, as he looked to lie still and not thrash, which led me to think it was a possibility. Still, instant death either way.

Someone on FB kept trying to tell me the vets were trying to save him and that ITV had said the screens were for a jockey, not horse. I'm not entirely sure they had the option, given how still he was on landing, I'd say he was dead on impact. Usually you get them trying to rise/a leg twitching. He was just still. Unless he was severely winded, it was pretty clear he was gone. I don't think I've ever seen one that still that quickly. The person on FB almost implied I was stupid, yet interestingly they were riding in their profile picture.

I know Elf mentioned they can be winded but it was the fact he looked so still, so instantly.

I don't think the comments from the owner came across very well, and doesn't overly fit with the "they care about their horses" that ITV kept peddling, because it sounds like oh yes it was sad he died and "gutting" but then you're delighted to get a winner?

I will always admire Native Rivers owners - he's probably one of the best jumpers I've seen and probably would have a real live chance in the national - yet his owners refused to run him in it as they didn't like the race. Wasn't it the same for Arkle someone mentioned up thread?

Re CG didn't Elf have one in retirement that had the same injury as him? I think he said as well in the video clip that if America isn't possible, he'll retire in Ireland

 

[Rowreach]

I think that really depends on the injury, which as far as we know hasn't been reported. You don't know if a horse will cope with retirement until you try it, I would certainly want to turn away a field sound horse into a herd to have the opportunity of a happy retirement wherever possible.

We know the injury is career ending, and presumably will involve a lot of rehab to get him to the "field sound" state (a term I loathe because a horse is either sound and pain free or it isn't). Who knows how he will cope with the rehab. Who knows how he will cope from being a fully fit racehorse in a strict routine, to box rest, to limited turnout, to a retirement in a field in Ireland (which won't be 24/7/364) or the US after a long haul flight.

I'm talking about the ethics of putting any horse through this, simply because the owner can afford to throw money at it, and whether the statement is more a panacea to people who are horrified at the way these horses are treated, and less in the interests of the horse now he's injured.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

GC has severed a tendon - ie his struck into the front tendon with a hind foot. It depends on his he went all the way through the tendon or only part way through. Either way surgery will be to flush the wound out throughly so there is nothing in there to cause infection. They may try to pop a couple of stitches in the tendon to pull it back together a bit if it was a total sever or leave it be and wrap it in a Robert Jones bandage if it was not all the way through.

It will heal. He will be field sound at the very least, possibly able to be a light hack. I highly doubt the owner is talking about taking him to America this week. He will stay and mend then travel.

We had a few horses do the same and all went on to live full lives as either companion horses or light hacks/Low level dressage horses.

The biggest issue will be if an infection gets in. That is the biggest danger to that horse right now.

 

[fetlock]

I think that really depends on the injury, which as far as we know hasn't been reported. You don't know if a horse will cope with retirement until you try it, I would certainly want to turn away a field sound horse into a herd to have the opportunity of a happy retirement wherever possible.

Severed tendon

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

The article mentions CG will spend his recuperation at Shark's yard, before then potentially going to the USA

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Also there needs to be something in place to catch loose ones that get on the inside of the course quicker - 2 ladies valiently tried to stop them but got out the way as they weren't for stopping. There's all sorts going on on the inside e.g. ambulances and all the vehicles etc. Were they running because they were enjoying it as is so often claimed or were they almost bolting in fear? The fact they went through the rails, knocking each other over, then ran into the rigging - is that them having "fun?"

It's not the first time one has got onto the inside of the course, they have catching pens and outriders on the outside, but nothing on the inner. There's a clip of them on twitter of them getting knocked over by some rigging, I was also waiting for them to swing back onto the course to join back with the pack. Perhaps you could have a couple of pens behind the rail in a couple of strategic places, like on the outside. Maybe a couple of out riders

Also the start seemed very rushed - would the ones such as hill sixteen and Galvin, who had apparently got so very stressed, have been picked up by the vet if they'd been at the start longer? If the trainer was having to put water on HS and saying how worked up he was - why wasn't he withdrawn? Same as poor Synchronised that time.

A phrase I really hate seeing trotted out is "he/she died doing what he loved" it almost feels like a justification.

 

[palo1]

I'm sorry, but I almost laughed out loud at this.

The crowd had paid to be there. How likely do you feel it would be that they would be sympathetic to a protest disrupting what they had paid to see?

The massive public support is for betting. If the punters were aware of what racing really entailed for the horses, I doubt they would be as massively in support of it.

I think we are at cross purposes as this was more or less the point I was trying to make. There is a huge crowd at Aintree - mostly the betting public. They are still 'the public' though; or at least one part of 'the public' that supports racing. I agree that betting has nothing to do with equine welfare either. I think most people attending race meetings give the horses very little thought indeed - I guess that is something the protesters were trying to bring light to. There is more than one point of view related to racing; for a great many people the pleasure has very little do with the actual horses.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

A phrase I really hate seeing trotted out is "he/she died doing what he loved" it almost feels like a justification.

It's a phrase I hate too. It doesn't matter if they love it or not. No death can be truly justified. The only consolation we, as stable staff, can take from the situation is that they do not suffer. It is over quickly long before the adrenaline runs out of their body. Or in the case of poor Hill Sixteen they are dead before their bum hits the ground and they know nothing. 99% of the time this is the case.

 

[PSD]

Huge congratulations @Elf On A Shelf. I went to watch yesterday, never been before and had an absolutely wonderful day. Race was slightly chaotic but I expect it usually is! Shame about the protestors though, it was a real shame about the one who broke his neck at the first. We were stood by the chair jump and saw the jockey come off, he took a real catapulting!

Was CG the dark chestnut? I saw one get put onto the trailer that was pretty lame. However I can’t remember if that was the main race or another, I’d had a few Proseccos by that point! Either way, I wish all injured a Speedy recovery.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Huge congratulations @Elf On A Shelf. I went to watch yesterday, never been before and had an absolutely wonderful day. Race was slightly chaotic but I expect it usually is! Shame about the protestors though, it was a real shame about the one who broke his neck at the first. We were stood by the chair jump and saw the jockey come off, he took a real catapulting!

Was CG the dark chestnut? I saw one get out onto the trailer that was pretty lame. However I can’t remember if that was the main race or another, I’d had a few Proseccos by that point! Either way, I wish all injured a Speedy recovery.

Yes CG was the very lame chestnut. Jockeys also come off at some speed and I do wonder how they roll over, curl up, get up then get on another horse sometimes! There was a brilliant hat cam of Sam Thomas a few years ago. It was a bright sunny day. His horse refused but at speed so all you see is the shadow of Sam starfishing to the ground

 

[palo1]

Yes CG was the very lame chestnut. Jockeys also come off at some speed and I do wonder how they roll over, curl up, get up then get on another horse sometimes! There was a brilliant hat cam of Sam Thomas a few years ago. It was a bright sunny day. His horse refused but at speed so all you see is the shadow of Sam starfishing to the ground

I think jockeys defy the usual rules of material bodies! Sadly, horses less so.

 

[PSD]

Yes CG was the very lame chestnut. Jockeys also come off at some speed and I do wonder how they roll over, curl up, get up then get on another horse sometimes! There was a brilliant hat cam of Sam Thomas a few years ago. It was a bright sunny day. His horse refused but at speed so all you see is the shadow of Sam starfishing to the ground

I watched a head cam video before of a jockey coming off into a fence and he had to take shelter as the race continued and horses were jumping over him! Must be so scary, they have some guts!

 

[Velcrobum]

I felt for the jockey who got fired over the fence when his horse had a loose one cut across them literally on take off.

 

[stangs]

Why did we protest at the Grand National? To finally make Britain talk about our treatment of animals | Alex Lockwood

Society is wedded to a belief it is OK to control animals for profit. We hoped this would make people stop and think, says Alex Lockwood of Animal Rising

www.theguardian.com

An opinionated piece to say the least.

Also notably no mention of whether their plans might have caused added stress to the horses.

 

[palo1]

Why did we protest at the Grand National? To finally make Britain talk about our treatment of animals | Alex Lockwood

Society is wedded to a belief it is OK to control animals for profit. We hoped this would make people stop and think, says Alex Lockwood of Animal Rising

www.theguardian.com

An opinionated piece to say the least.

Also notably no mention of whether their plans might have caused added stress to the horses.

The article lost me when it started talking about a food system without animals. I am in favour of hugely increased vegetarian diets tbh and agree that the most harm to animals is caused through existing food systems BUT even the Vegan society have accepted that we need animals as part of our food system; for soil nutrition at the very least. I am not clear what is supposed to be done with those animals at the end of their natural lives, how many grazing/manure producing/biodiversity supporting animals anyone thinks we need but it is widely agreed that we need animals for sustainable food production. We may not need to eat them but we definitely need them in the system and so does any system supporting biodiversity. I don't disagree with all the statements in the article either but choosing the GN as a focus for protest seems a really ineffective and divisive choice of event to me.

 

[AmyMay]

Animal Rising is a peaceful movement; our actions are focused on stopping harm, particularly in the food system, where we breed and kill more than 1.2bn animals in the UK every year.

Which is all well and good. But their actions at the GN yesterday did absolutely nothing to highlight those concerns.

 

[ycbm]

Totally different sport, so the correlation is slightly irrelevant.

However all horses are different, some will have taken the delay in their stride others would have been massively wound up by it.

Trainers of horses that get wound up are likely to have sent theirs to the paddock at the last moment possible.

On a similar basis using your analogy to other sports some horses need 30+minutes to warm up for dressage, others need less than 5.

So considering Hillstreet Sixteens previous form you can understand why his trainer thinks that the delay may have impacted him, especially if the horse is one that needs as little time as possible in the paddock.

And what was the excuse in all the other years?

 

[palo1]

Which is all well and good. But their actions at the GN yesterday did absolutely nothing to highlight those concerns.

Exactly and peaceful protest doesn't need a bunch of coppers and locals to strong-arm people off a legal event either. I get the desire to disrupt and call attention to things but this wasn't in my view the right thing for what they say they want to achieve. Why not protest at the food bars on the racecourse, at Cargill or outside Liverpool's supermarkets if they wanted to use the GN occasion?

 

[AmyMay]

Exactly and peaceful protest doesn't need a bunch of coppers and locals to strong-arm people off a legal event either. I get the desire to disrupt and call attention to things but this wasn't in my view the right thing for what they say they want to achieve. Why not protest at the food bars on the racecourse, at Cargill or outside Liverpool's supermarkets if they wanted to use the GN occasion?

Yes, it wasn’t a ‘peaceful’ protest. It was a ‘direct action’ protest. Which, again, is all well and good. But at least call it what it was.