Scary Judgement re Buyer Beware

[CanteringCarrot]

So does a shop that buys a crate of bananas unseen and they are delivered black instead of green or yellow, does the shop have no legal right to a replacement? That sounds completely wrong to me.
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That's different from the horse example/case though. For a few reasons.

Also, I'm not 100% how the bananas would case would play out depending on a few variables, but those aside they would possibly have a legal right to replacement.

There are many aspects of law that sound completely wrong, to be honest, especially if we start making comparisons between items or cases that are not equal.

In general though, there are laws or rulings out there that do or can sound completely wrong to some (including myself). So I guess I'm not so shocked.

In addition to that, especially in this example, I do believe in buyers doing their due diligence. I also believe in sellers needing to be honest and forthcoming. Finding the balance between those two is the crux of the matter, for me. I know some honestly feel as though they buyer shouldn't have to do any due diligence, and in some cases, I think that's reasonable.

 

[ester]

I did wonder if diff judge diff day would = completely different result.

 

[blitznbobs]

I don't see, morally, that makes the slightest difference to having the right to goods that are "as described".
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The law is the law - it’s not a moral arbiter, it applies the law as it is written … it is actually to protect the lay person from a trader coming back and saying something isn’t as described and is supposed to a address the disparity of knowledge.

 

[nutjob]

Businesses buy from wholesalers, producers and manufacturers all the time without inspecting the goods first and surely they have a right to expect that the goods will arrive as described?

Businesses that I have worked in didn't pay up front, they have a purchase agreement with the supplier and goods are dispatched on receipt of a purchase order, they are inspected (or a sample is) on arrival and are rejected before payment if there's a problem. For expensive equipment there would be a payment plan but not all money paid up front.

This makes no difference to the very dodgy dealers as they just ignore ccj's, some have several outstanding, then they keep all their assets in someone else's name so a win in court doesn't mean getting your money back anyway.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

When you see the rubbish being sold its just a sign of the times I'm afraid, look at this lot:
Copied from DD as link wont work

Savanna, 16.2hh Irish Draught Mare​

• 
• 

Savanna, 16.2hh Irish Draught, 12 years young. Savanna is a school master, she speaks for her self. She has competed/hunted, etc... Been there done it all type and she great breeding.

She's the ultimate confidence giver and anybodys ride from a child to older (80 years of age ride) Any trails to come and ride her more than welcome.

Anymore information please call or text. Transport, plenty more pics and vids also available.

Price: £2,000 ono - Sold


Then this crippled gem:

Horses Ads For Sale in Ireland | DoneDeal

Discover 984 Ads in Horses For Sale in Ireland on DoneDeal. Buy & Sell on Ireland's Largest Horses Marketplace.

www.donedeal.ie

This one as bad:

Horses Ads For Sale in Ireland | DoneDeal

Discover 984 Ads in Horses For Sale in Ireland on DoneDeal. Buy & Sell on Ireland's Largest Horses Marketplace.

www.donedeal.ie

Due diligence required indeed.

I'm out of horses but especially horrified by the front legs on the bottom 2 - what on earth could have happened to cause that? They almost look broken both look to have racing breeding.

The 2nd one looks really sweet too

 

[ihatework]

I did wonder if diff judge diff day would = completely different result.

I’d be inclined to agree. I think trader B has every right to feel a bit hard done by.

 

[angel7]

DSLD or ESPA on first and last one, second one who knows ?dislocated fetlock or fractured elbow??

 

[honetpot]

Perhaps I am a bit odd, but as a private buyer I have bought unseen, usually breeding stock, at the right price, and I am taking the risk. Once the money changes hands and the sale is agreed the buyer is resposible for the animal, transport and insurance. I usually give the transporter the cash, they have to check the passport, and that its fit to travel and hand over the money.
So if it had a obviously broken shoulder, was it fit to travel or did it break being transported?The only equine I have ever seen with broken shoulder, slipped in the paddock and it was severely lame immediately, no pain relief could disguise the injury. So I would be asking questions of the transporter.
Dealers barter horses all the time, and usually its not worth the ag falling out, because its a small world.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Vet confirmed it was an old break with calcification evident.

 

[neddy man]

The (former) weekly horse auction near me always had the dealers doing more trade between themselves in the lorry park than was done in the auction ring.

 

[ycbm]

The law is the law - it’s not a moral arbiter, it applies the law as it is written … it is actually to protect the lay person from a trader coming back and saying something isn’t as described and is supposed to a address the disparity of knowledge.

I understand that but I am really shocked at the law, apparently, saying that a trader has no right to a comeback if another trader fraudulently describes a product, on the basis that they didn't view the product when they could have done. It isn't always practical to do that. Cars, for example, change hands between dealers and traders all the time unseen, and so do horses. It seems impossible to believe that those trade deals are not protected by any law.

Like Ester, I would hope that another judge might have a different interpretation of the law.
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[Ambers Echo]

@ycbm totally agree.

I also agree with those saying they have no sympathy with bin end dealers passing broken horses around. But not all dealers buying unseen are in that category by any means. Those bin end dealers know each other and are equally complict - I was horrified when I discovered that someone I actually used to like and train with was/is in cahoots with the lowerst of the low - taking in broken horses and selling them on as sound, in full knowledge of their actual condition.

But an honest dealer should be able to rely on descriptions and source horses unseen. More so in many ways than buyers who want to know if they 'gel' with a horse. A dealer just needs to know if the horse ticks boxes that make it sellable. That is pretty much what I did with Lottie. I bought unseen with the plan to sell on if she and I did not click. I trusted she was as described and that therfore would be easy to sell on if she was not quite right for me.

 

[Goldie's mum]

The only thing that surprises me is that they went to court in the first place.
Dealer to dealer sales go wrong regularly & the response is usually either an agreement regards a discount off the next one or a lot of bad mouthing & damaged reputation within the trade.

Was the buyer new to dealing?

 

[Ambers Echo]

Also Dolly's history was breeder - dealer - dealer - me at 4. I was the first to view and vet. She was perfect in every way and Katie's pony of a lifetime.

 

[ycbm]

Dealers of horses know that a horse can become worth nothing at any moment. Worth thousands to broken leg worth nothing in the blink of an eye. So if they're offered a profit they'll likely take it, and won't hang around waiting for a better offer at some unknown future point after the horse has eaten the profit. Being passed from dealer to dealer doesn't necessarily mean a bad horse, it just means several dealers are prepared to take a cut off the eventual profit made from selling to a private buyer. Best not to know, just get a really good vet (or none at all) and buy the horse in front of you.
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[nutjob]

There is currently a well known dodgy dealer of bin end horses who is buying from more reputable dealers. She then claims there are problems with the horses and tries to extort some of the money back by writing bad reviews and threatening to take the sellers to court. She's not a limited company, simply a backyard dealer but she claims to be a private buyer.

 

[blitznbobs]

I understand that but I am really shocked at the law, apparently, saying that a trader has no right to a comeback if another trader fraudulently describes a product, on the basis that they didn't view the product when they could have done. It isn't always practical to do that. Cars, for example, change hands between dealers and traders all the time unseen, and so do horses. It seems impossible to believe that those trade deals are not protected by any law.

Like Ester, I would hope that another judge might have a different interpretation of the law.
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There is no evidence that they fraudently describe it … they probably said something along the lines of ‘I think it’s ok but if you want to get it vetted go for it’ at which point ‘ok is open to interpretation and there is no evidence that the injury. Didn’t happen during transportation… so yes sometimes you have to put the effort in and go and look before you invest money— if it is a bananas type trade and they do send crap then the come back is that they never get the business again hence they are kept honest and it saves the courts time

The examples in the law are all about cars tbh … and yes it’s buyer beware but if one dealer sends another dealer scrap metal that will find its way around the network fast

 

[Upthecreek]

Horse buying is a gamble if you view in person, ride it in different scenarios and have it vetted. Of course there is still no guarantee that something won’t go wrong, but at least you have taken steps to mitigate the risk of ending up with a dud. If you buy a horse unseen and unvetted the gamble is even bigger. It’s all well and good to say if it doesn’t work out you’d sell on, but this isn’t always easy, and a broken horse is unsellable so you’d have to be prepared to PTS. I would never buy unseen and I would never sell to anyone that wanted to buy unseen. Happy to buy/sell inanimate objects unseen. A horse no. I have little sympathy with crappy dealer to crappy dealer ‘transactions’ that go wrong for this reason. It’s a living breathing animal whose welfare should be prioritised over a quick deal and if it costs people more to buy horses from dealers as a result so be it. Buyers absolutely should beware and do whatever they can to protect themselves.

 

[blitznbobs]

I couldn’t agree more, the most important thing about any horse to me is its temperament… it’s such a subjective thing that I don’t know how anyone can buy any animal sight unseen… it’s like getting married off a tinder ad (having never even gone on a date) and expecting it all to be roses… is it possible , yes but likely - no.

 

[honetpot]

I think what you have to factor in is that the horse will have been cheap for what it was. As a teenager I used to ride for a lower end dealer, and we would pick up all sorts from forgotten childrens ponies to very smart but sour horses, they would be bought unseen for the right price. The 14.2 sour SJ was a lovely pony, but go anywhere near a fence and you were out the side door.
After about a month of having teenagers do them, they were either sold to private buyers for which he had repeat customers, traded up to another dealer, or they went to the meat man. There was plenty of land so the the fun but bordering on knutty ones were kept I think literally to keep us amused. He made some money at it, but often like farming its a way of life.

The problem now it there is so often little profit, and no real horse meat market, so the bottom end with no incentive to PTS the ones that should be, so they get sold to a'good home', and moved on. There are a lot of 20yr old plus horses on Preloved whose last stop stop should be the field they are stood in.

 

[ycbm]

I couldn’t agree more, the most important thing about any horse to me is its temperament… it’s such a subjective thing that I don’t know how anyone can buy any animal sight unseen… it’s like getting married off a tinder ad (having never even gone on a date) and expecting it all to be roses… is it possible , yes but likely - no.

It's nothing like being married. You don't, or shouldn't, go into it expecting any sort of relationship except to offer the horse fair treatment. And if you buy unseen, you must factor in the possibility that "fair treatment" might include PTS. And if you can't do that, then buying unseen is not for you.

If I include auction purchases, I've bought unseen many times and every one of those horses left me better trained, more experienced and for more money (often a lot more money) than they cost me. And they were great fun, and part of the fun was not knowing what you've got until you've got them at home.

I still think everyone should have the right, trade or consumer, to expect that the animal will be as it was described to them, and have the law back them up if that is demonstrably not the case.
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[Upthecreek]

It’s one thing to buy a pink dress from an online retailer and send it back because the shade of pink or cut of the dress is not as you expected from the description, but the consequences of buying an animal based on the description given by the seller alone are somewhat different. I don’t disagree that we *should* have the right to expect the animal to be as described, but it surprises me that people are that trusting and willing to take the risk of dealing with the hassle if it goes horribly wrong. And do I think those responsible for interpreting/enforcing the law have a clue about how horses are described and the nuances of horse selling/buying? Absolutely not.

 

[Ambers Echo]

There is no evidence that they fraudently describe it … they probably said something along the lines of ‘I think it’s ok but if you want to get it vetted go for it’

They are quoted (sreenshotted) as saying 'horse is perfect in every way'.

 

[blitznbobs]

deleted

 

[Ambers Echo]

I would never buy unseen and I would never sell to anyone that wanted to buy unseen. Happy to buy/sell inanimate objects unseen. A horse no. I have little sympathy with crappy dealer to crappy dealer ‘transactions’ that go wrong for this reason. It’s a living breathing animal whose welfare should be prioritised over a quick deal and if it costs people more to buy horses from dealers as a result so be it. Buyers absolutely should beware and do whatever they can to protect themselves.

I think holding dealers to the same standard as private buyers and sellers is unrealistic.

My own horses become - even if temporarily - part of the family and I feel a responsibility to carefully place them in the best home for them. I have had 2 horses needing retirement and I found non-PTS but also non sale options for both of them. Both are safe and happy. I could not PTS a healthy, happy but unsound horse. I have spent £££££££ on vet bills for horses such that the vet bills dwarf the original cost or intrinsic value of the horse. I do that because they are my 'family' and I feel I owe them. And they are - to me- a pastime/hobby.

For dealers they are their livelihood. We can find that distasteful - but then we would have to accept the end of horse ownership as a leisure pursuit, as who is going to breed, produce and sell these horses without people making a living from it? It's all very well saying 'well then costs increase and so be it". But ethical breeeders and producers will always be priced out by dodgy ones! So that is simply unrealistic too.

Of course dealers should place horses responsibily (even if unseen), of course they should manage the horses health care needs, of course they should describe the horses accurately. And the friends I know who deal as well as train do all that. Dolly & Lottie both came from fab dealers. But essentially your post seem to say if you don't virw and vet you're a crappy dealer who deserves all they get?

But I see this completely the opposite way round, I see this decision as terrible for horse welfare and for honest dealers. It emboldens the crappy dealers who will feel buyers have no legal comeback, even if they misrepresent the horse. While a dealer who wanted to trade honestly (and did PTS immediately, not try and send back for a refund) was hammered.

This is a victory for cruel and shady practice (misprepresenting then travelling a severely injured horse) and a punishment for behaving in the horses interest (PTS rather than refusing delivery and send back) and generally leaves a horribly sour taste in my mouth.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Which it may have been when it was put on the lorry…

I wish people would read the whole thread before stating (or even forming) their view! Vet confirmed old break with califciation around break site, as has been said twice upthread.

 

[Supercalifragilistic]

Business to business the court will look at the contract in place. Either written or spoken, or a combination of both. From this they can construe the Terms of the contract (Terms has a legal meaning) to see if any of those Terms were broken.

Ultimately it boils down to what is said at the time that the contract came into force (not after). Deciding on the point that the contract came into force is a legal exercise in itself.

Moral of the story - if businesses want to protect themselves they need to be clear on the contract Terms (i.e. a clear statement of soundness at the time of sale). With bin end dealers there simply isn’t going to be this kind of diligence - but any dealer would be well advised to put a short form contract in place with any purchase, covering the essentials.

I tend to stay out of these threads but hopefully this is a helpful summary of how the court would approach a B2B contract

 

[Goldie's mum]

Some of these replies are presuming that this was a private sale into a long term home. Advice & opinions as to whether to buy unseen in those circumstances aren't relevant here. This was a trade to trade deal.
Dealers pass on unsold horses regularly, usually to the same places that are known to them and just the right distance away (far enough to not be a direct rival & have a new set of buyers but not so far that there would be high transport costs). For example I know a dealer in Carlisle who passes unsold horses to one in Yorkshire. Sometimes there's a swap, others money changes hands.
I wonder if the judge was unaware what usually goes on. These are not individual sales, they are part of a system of moving horses around. No dealer could possibly view and vet every one individually.
Whether or not you have opinions on the morality of the horse trade generally, in law, the case hangs on whether dealer A stated that the horse was sound before dealer B agreed to buy it. We have 3rd hand information here but it sounds to me that the judgement went the wrong way.

 

[honetpot]

I think it depends how far a long it was post injury. How many people have something thats lame, there are fractures, from hairline to a complete displacement, and sling it out in the field rather than call the vet. Most dealers have fields of horses that are stores, so like my old dealer he would buy from the field, it would go straight into another field and be left until someone had time to do something with it, or it was sold on. A horse could have an injury and by the time it comes to get it ready for sale, its not longer visable. I have known experienced and qualified people not spot what would be by then a minor lameness

When you go to a horse auction in the terms and conditions there are those that are sold without warranty, basically it your risk, and dealers buy barter and sell outside the ring on that basis. No dealer is going to get a horse vetted, and if a horse is sold at auction you are lucky if you see it trot in a straight line, thats how they trade.

 

[ester]

It was definitely VERY visible!