Self-insuring horses - do you do it?

I think I'd err on the side of telling the vet 'it won't be on insurance' to get that prognosis before admitting having insurance - we do for one only (warmblood, figured more likely to do something costly - yesterday for example she broke a buckle on thefront of her rug in the stable, completely baffled as to how other buckle was fine, no sign of injury to self or box)
 
teddypops said:
So when the vet asks ‘is your horse insured?’ Do you say yes or no?
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Since the vet means 'do you pay for an insurance policy with a set sum of money I can spend on this which will make no difference to you if I spend it all?' I obviously answer 'no'.
 
This will be my last year of insurance on my cob. He’d go to veteran insurance next year which I don’t think is good value for premiums at all. I have a credit card for the other two, which I’ve not had to use. I also have BHS Gold. I almost cancelled the insurance this year, but then we had a case of strangles and I took it to mean a sign not to cancel. Even the tests for that work out to a few hundred, so I’ve kept it up for now.
 
The insurance "industry" is a highly profitable one. If you are a person who pays to insure your horse, the profits are garnered from YOU. I have never insured an animal, preferring to pay vet bills as and when they occur.
 
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Shilasdair said:
i

I don't think you understand the concept of self insurance - perhaps try doing some simple googling.
But thanks for your input. :)
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Oh I know what the term means but it’s exactly the same as not being insured with a company and paying the bills yourself! So thanks for your input!
 
Mixed bag here.
Having had many decent claims on Millie's insurance, I now have Kira insured... For me, I like to have that cushion available for my competition horse so I continue to cough up monthly.

The 2 oldies are not insured and there's no special fund for them, other than whatever pennies are rolling around the bottom of my current account. if/when they do themselves a mischief, a decision will have to be made about how far to pursue treatment with finances balanced against quality of life.

The newbie I will set up a fund to cover her bills myself, in the meantime I have a credit card I can use. If she turns out to be special then I will possibly insure her as well (WB, probably going to end up being a vet bill magnet, let's face it :p)
 
I think self insuring works better where you have more than one horse and the amount it would cost to insure all is more likely to be equivalent of what your vets bills will be.

With one then a single claim up to the limit would easily be equivalent of 10 years premiums.

I would never say never to GA as I have had a horse than needed a totally routine but virtually guaranteed success operation that required GA.

Also in terms of vets when I have had large claims then it's not always expensive treatments than run bills but tricky diagnostics where the cause isn't clear.
 
With 3 horses an elderly dog (one recently lost dog) and a soon to arrive pedigree kitten I’d be looking in the region of 3-4K a year in premiums. I did previously strategically insure the working ones but have this last year decided to self insure.

I keep a largish emergency surplus of cash in my business account, where it sits so I don’t have to pay dividend tax on it. It can be mobilised whenever, but I would aim to pay the majority of Vets bills either from my personal account or on a 0% credit card, which I always make sure I have one.
 
My horse has always (and still is at the moment) been insured. I have never claimed on it until earlier this year when colic surgery was needed. Guess what, the insurance company only pay up to 5k per claim. Fortunately I did have the extra 5k… then the additional 1.5k for the post op problems. I am seriously thinking of dropping the insurance now and just having a separate account to fund my horse. I would start it with 3-4k and add to it monthly. I would not put any horse through colic surgery again.
 
I gave up insurance for my two about 5 years ago when they reached "veteran" age. The premiums rocketed and the cover plummeted. They both also had exclusions for the very things that were likely to cause problems.

I started it off with £1k of savings I already had and since then I've paid £100 a month (more or less what insurance was costing me) into the account. It is intended as both an insurance fund and a next horse fund. I'm up to about £6500 at the moment. There's no target and I don't intend to stop paying it.

I have strict rules and only dip into it if it was something I would have claimed for. As a result I've only dipped in once for a £2k bill last year. The hardest thing I find is getting vets to understand that the horse 'is' insured and I want him to be treated as if he was insured (within reason!). Initially my vet was advocating 'conservative' treatment as he knew he wasn't insured until I said the money was there - I didn't want to throw it around but I wanted him to have what he needed - which was bone scan as couldn't find where the problem was.

I too wouldn't put them through a GA - they're about to turn 22 but if I ever need more than is in the account I know my credit rating is good enough for a 0% credit card with a long deal to pay it off. I have other savings too but they're joint with OH for the house etc so don't want to use those.
 
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teddypops said:
Oh I know what the term means but it’s exactly the same as not being insured with a company and paying the bills yourself! So thanks for your input!
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You're not exactly adding much info to my thread, are you?
In fact, you may well be creating an exclamation mark shortage - somewhere in the world people's posts lack gravitas because you have stolen their ability to exclaim. :(
 
Interesting replies, thank you.
I like the idea of the fund being for either the next horse, or if I expire, for a buffer to pay for mine while my family and partner celebrate my demise. :)

While I'm happy enough to have given both of mine a first colic surgery, I feel that the outcomes for second colic surgeries are much poorer so would be reluctant.

I have to say that colic surgery does seem a lot less painful than laminitis, an abscess or a wing fracture, and horses post op can often be walked, grazed in hand, or even turned out in a teeny area afterwards.
 
Shilasdair said:
You're not exactly adding much info to my thread, are you?
In fact, you may well be creating an exclamation mark shortage - somewhere in the world people's posts lack gravitas because you have stolen their ability to exclaim. :(
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Ha! Ha that’s funny! There’s a couple more gone :)

I don’t think GA in itself is too much, it depends on the recovery time afterwards for me. Colic surgery would probably be out, but having put a teenage horse through a GA for a relatively minor procedure with a simple and quick recovery I may do it again if needed. That bill didn’t get up to the insurance limit and actually I was surprised at the low bill. Some of the investigations were done first by my vet then duplicated at the hospital so I would bypass the local vet stage if they weren’t Insured I think.
 
meleeka said:
I don’t think GA in itself is too much, it depends on the recovery time afterwards for me. Colic surgery would probably be out, but having put a teenage horse through a GA for a relatively minor procedure with a simple and quick recovery I may do it again if needed.
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yes, each to their own and i do fully understand people that would not choose to do a GA but this was my experience too ^^ I was very very worried before the procedure but my mare did well and though she looked pretty rough that evening, she bounced back to her usual bright self within a couple of days. I have also seen first colic surgeries go well and I would probably give that a go too, depending on vet advice obv. Those are the things that keep me paying the insurance, it's just fear on my part :rolleyes:
 
Sorry to turn it into a colic thread, but one of the reasons I won't have a colic operation done now is that I don't trust the improved recovery rates. Everyone now knows that the quicker the horse is on the table, the more likely they are to live. It's a certainty (I know of at least one where permission to operate was refused and the horse recovered fine) that improved rates are at least partly because the operation wasn't actually critical in the first place.

This isn't intended as any sort of comment about people who do choose to have their horse operated on if the vet is saying it's essential. I know lots of horses come through it fine, but for me there are still too many who don't.
 
I usually don't insure my own horses but do keep a decent savings fund. I am realistic about what I would have done to them. I now insure my homebred foal as his half-sister cost me 6k with a hospital admittance, surgery and ultimate PTS. He would have any treatment necessary so the insurance is a saftey net as he hasn't been paying into his pot for long enough!
 
The cause of abdominal pain in horses is hard to diagnose. Rectals only allow access to a tiny part of th gut, ultrasound likewise.
The only way vets can know for sure is to undertake exploratory surgery. So yes, some cases may have improved without surgery, and some may prove inoperable. If the choice is to leave a horse suffering through the pain of colic while you hope it will survive, or operating, I know which I'd pick every time.

It's probably worth noting that vets don't operate as a first resort; they treat with drugs and typically wait 6 to 8 hours to see if it resolves (it usually does).

If at that point you don't choose to operate, I'd suggest PTS is needed there and then.

I have no patience for those who leave their horse suffering for days.
 
Shilasdair said:
The cause of abdominal pain in horses is hard to diagnose. Rectals only allow access to a tiny part of th gut, ultrasound likewise.
The only way vets can know for sure is to undertake exploratory surgery. So yes, some cases may have improved without surgery, and some may prove inoperable. If the choice is to leave a horse suffering through the pain of colic while you hope it will survive, or operating, I know which I'd pick every time.

It's probably worth noting that vets don't operate as a first resort; they treat with drugs and typically wait 6 to 8 hours to see if it resolves (it usually does).

If at that point you don't choose to operate, I'd suggest PTS is needed there and then.

I have no patience for those who leave their horse suffering for days.
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I wouldn't have colic surgery, or indeed any GA, but I have had two horses who took longer than 6-8 hrs to recover from colic. Both were elderly and the attending vet advised against surgery, anyway.
One had colic over 3 days, with all the pain-relief that she needed, we never really worked out what had caused the problem. It was only as the pain relief wore off that we realised that she hadn't recovered. On the 3rd vet visit, it was agreed that if she relapsed again she would be pts. She made a good recovery, aged 25 and enjoyed a 6 yr retirement.
The other, a 20 yr old heavy horse, had an impaction colic, which lasted over 36 hrs, with 3 vet visits and the mare made a good recovery. My vets are perfectly capable of giving adequate pain relief over time.

I don't insure but pay any vet bills as necessary.
 
Andalucian said:
By far the most import factor for me was that now vets discuss and ask me what next steps I'd like to take with a condition, not what the insurer wants.
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I have 10 so couldn't afford to insure. I also have very firm views on what treatments each will receive depending on their ages and temperaments. One I would pay whatever it costs for everything probably including colic surgery. Some of the others would not benefit and would get treatment more appropriate to their needs. I don't put money aside instead I rely on savings. However I have a credit card with a balance of 15k kept specifically for horse treatment if needed. That solves the immediate problem although my hospitaltakes payment on the horse leaving.

The quote above is one great advantages of not formally insuring. I tell the vet/hospital the horse is not insured so I am paying the bills and will therefore be the one deciding on the treatment. That way I get exactly what I want and no messing around with vets doing things for insurance companies. It is also a lot quicker, we discuss options and for the most part I can decide immediately.
When my youngster was in hospital and his life in the balance I left them in the evening with the instruction of do everything whatever it costs. Don't ring me just do it. It was a relief to know I would not have to worry about what an insurance company said.
 
paddy555 said:
I have 10 so couldn't afford to insure. I also have very firm views on what treatments each will receive depending on their ages and temperaments. One I would pay whatever it costs for everything probably including colic surgery. Some of the others would not benefit and would get treatment more appropriate to their needs. I don't put money aside instead I rely on savings. However I have a credit card with a balance of 15k kept specifically for horse treatment if needed. That solves the immediate problem although my hospitaltakes payment on the horse leaving.

The quote above is one great advantages of not formally insuring. I tell the vet/hospital the horse is not insured so I am paying the bills and will therefore be the one deciding on the treatment. That way I get exactly what I want and no messing around with vets doing things for insurance companies. It is also a lot quicker, we discuss options and for the most part I can decide immediately.
When my youngster was in hospital and his life in the balance I left them in the evening with the instruction of do everything whatever it costs. Don't ring me just do it. It was a relief to know I would not have to worry about what an insurance company said.
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I don't understand that attitude at all. Horses are insured but we make the decisions on their treatment. I have refused treatment which the insurance company would have paid for as I didn't think it was in the best interests of the horse. Also, have paid for treatment that the insurance company wouldn't (MRI scan) as consultant said it would be helpful.
 
No, but I have seriously considered it because I have several horses (total annual spend atm is around £2000).

However, I have one mare who has cost the NFU a lot of money over several years, including a kick injury that needed months of hospital treatment (£5000), LOU (£8000), exploratory abdominal surgery for unexplained repeated colics (£5000), cholganio hepatitis inpatient care (£4000), impaction colic inpatient care (£1500 paid myself as not insured for any colic). So £22000 and that doesn't include various less serious things like back injections and extensive physio, for example. There has never been a point where she was near being pts, she has come through 2 general anaesthetics without any issue and atm the insurance company must be out of pocket :( so I can't really persuade myself to go it alone.



It's a lot of money to pay but it gives me huge of peace of mind, it's easy to say you wouldn't put a horse through a GA, but my experience would say that they can recover fine, so I personally would, especially if younger and a job to do.
 
Shilasdair said:
Hi
if you self insure your horse, can you tell me;
1. How much you save per month to build the fund?
2. The total you've reached, and the total you're aiming for
3. Where do you save it? Savings account, ISA?
4. Have you had to pay out?

1. I save surplus wages weekly so have a fair bit in my emergency life saving kitty, for dogs/horses and any other unexpected problems, if I was saving just for insurance purposes I would probably want to have at least 3k set aside. That said if you earn well and are rubbish at saving you could always get a credit card if you were desperate instead?
2.as above
3. I keep mine in premium bonds, that way I cant dip in as theres a notice period of a few weeks, plus the prizes I win far surpass and interest rates available.
4. No I haven't, one of mine went uninsured for 10years without issue after a few problems, that works out to around £6k saved in insurance premiums over that time. Anyway I have 3 horses now and don't wish to pay the premiums especially with how cut throat the exclusions are dealt with. I have enough to pay for an emergency so theres no way I would bother. Sometimes I think insurance gets rinsed with a load of treatments you probably wouldn't have anyway just to use up the max per injury limit for the year.
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As an adult stallion owner, I took him on knowing he may 'need' an elective GA. As such I'm not anti GA :p All of ours are on a herd insurance policy and I'll keep them that way for now.

As an aside if I had a pony I was going to colic surgery (I would my young boy, probably my 18 year old, not the retired 3) then as soon as it didn't respond to a load of fluids and pain relief it would be being prepped. Chicken and egg- earlier surgery (so maybe didn't need it, but equally the guts are less likely to have died and or endotoxaemia is less likely to be waiting in the wings). I've seen horses die on the recovery from GA (2) but I'd sit with that (even if it turned out to be nothing surgical) easier than them suffering away another night or that they opened it up and the guts were horrid or it became a septic anaesthetic nightmare.
 
No I do not insure but have had to pay out £1200 for a leg fracture same again for a leg infection on my other horse and the last one was £600 for a cut leg this is over a 8 year period. If it is £400 to insure two horses a year I am still ahead also need to deduct £150 excess from each claim.
I have three classic cars that i am sick of looking at so if anything big was needed they would be first to go worth £35000
 
paddy555 said:
I have 10 so couldn't afford to insure. I also have very firm views on what treatments each will receive depending on their ages and temperaments. One I would pay whatever it costs for everything probably including colic surgery. Some of the others would not benefit and would get treatment more appropriate to their needs. I don't put money aside instead I rely on savings. However I have a credit card with a balance of 15k kept specifically for horse treatment if needed. That solves the immediate problem although my hospitaltakes payment on the horse leaving.

The quote above is one great advantages of not formally insuring. I tell the vet/hospital the horse is not insured so I am paying the bills and will therefore be the one deciding on the treatment. That way I get exactly what I want and no messing around with vets doing things for insurance companies. It is also a lot quicker, we discuss options and for the most part I can decide immediately.
When my youngster was in hospital and his life in the balance I left them in the evening with the instruction of do everything whatever it costs. Don't ring me just do it. It was a relief to know I would not have to worry about what an insurance company said.
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This could be me. I have a rough idea what level of treatment I would want for any animal. When something happens I fall back on that and discuss the treatment options with the vet. Vets and doctors tend to want to make animals and people better but are unaware of the day to day practicalities caring for a sick/injured animal, for me its not about costs it's about outcomes.
I have had friends spend thousands on horses, because they were insured, when the outcome was likely to be poor, and both horses were euthanized after the treatment. I do not believe this in the animals best interest, and prolongs discomfort for what? PTS and the animal has no further suffering or discomfort.
The highest vets fees, so far, have been for planned surgery which would not have been covered by insurance, all the others, so far, have been trivial, which I would have paid because of the excess. The only time I claimed on my insurance it paid me £65 and excluded a whole leg after trivial injury. I had one pony PTS due to colic, but really the amount of time she had been ill, I found her after work, and she had probably had it for several hours and was shocked , was the major factor in my decision.
Money can not cure everything, every intervention should be evaluated for what it is going to do for the animal.
As to saving, no I pay on the credit card, then would look for a 0% card and pay it off over the year, but that how I pay for most big things.
I do not think twice about getting the vet out, I would rather look foolish than miss something.
If you plan vet visits they can usually be free or cheaper, so as I have so many I group routine things, and planed treatment with check up if possible and the basic stuff costs about £300 a year, which would not be covered by insurance.
 
rara007 said:
As an adult stallion owner, I took him on knowing he may 'need' an elective GA. As such I'm not anti GA :p All of ours are on a herd insurance policy and I'll keep them that way for now.

As an aside if I had a pony I was going to colic surgery (I would my young boy, probably my 18 year old, not the retired 3) then as soon as it didn't respond to a load of fluids and pain relief it would be being prepped. Chicken and egg- earlier surgery (so maybe didn't need it, but equally the guts are less likely to have died and or endotoxaemia is less likely to be waiting in the wings). I've seen horses die on the recovery from GA (2) but I'd sit with that (even if it turned out to be nothing surgical) easier than them suffering away another night or that they opened it up and the guts were horrid or it became a septic anaesthetic nightmare.
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Sorry to hijack thread, but who do you use for herd insurance policy?
 
Carriage house (they do riding horses too!). The older ones are automatically excluded from arthritis type things and the really old ones accident only, the younger ones 'full cover' and have different levels depending on what activities they're doing.
 
I put £67 a month which was the premium I was paying just before I cancelled due to the number of exclusions. I now have about £1200 in the account, it’s only for emergencies, I don’t use it for routine stuff, and the horse is a veteren so I wouldn’t consider any of the very expensive treatments like colic surgery anyway. When he retires and I’ve found my next one, he will be insured for everything for the first couple of years at least. Edited to add it’s in an isa.
 
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Horse insurance is not as common in NZ as in the UK - most casual owners don't. When I last looked at it, about 10 years ago, it was more expensive than insuring my flat.

I have savings and a credit card for emergencies, but the decision at the time would depend on the horse, the potential outcome, quality of life etc, etc.
 
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