Self preservation

[planete]

This is a newly broken horse who first bronced after being kicked to make her go. She may well not be used to being kicked, I have certainly never felt it a good idea to kick any horse, never mind a very green one. I would not think that overreacting to a kick, getting entangled in tack and panicking warrants being pts before even being assessed by somebody used to bringing on young horses. She may be more sensitive and reactive than the OP is used to but I feel sorry for this young horse thrust into a strange environment without the reassurance of a rider she had had time to learn to trust. Look at it another way: from her point of view what reason did she have not to panic if she had never been desensitised to stuff falling off her or wrapping itself around her legs for instance? Some horses will not panic at anything much granted but most will if the circumstances are stressful enough. Some people are lucky and never find themselves in a catastrophic situation with a young horse, some are experienced enough to ensure it is unlikely to happen and other times the s.it hits the fan and the horse pays the price.

 

[Storm20]

Ok so you are misunderstanding the timeline of events.
1. Horse naps to field buddy. Doesn't go forward. After kicking her she broncs
2. Gallops over to field buddy (This was not a bolt)
3. When she gets to field buddy she puts head down to eat and reins between her legs.
4. She bolts and breaks reins
5. Runs through a fence and u turns back into fiels
6. Bolts to other end of field and goes through wooden fence then bolts off the property

 

[Storm20]

This is a newly broken horse who first bronced after being kicked to make her go. She may well not be used to being kicked, I have certainly never felt it a good idea to kick any horse, never mind a very green one. I would not think that overreacting to a kick, getting entangled in tack and panicking warrants being pts before even being assessed by somebody used to bringing on young horses. She may be more sensitive and reactive than the OP is used to but I feel sorry for this young horse thrust into a strange environment without the reassurance of a rider she had had time to learn to trust. Look at it another way: from her point of view what reason did she have not to panic if she had never been desensitised to stuff falling off her or wrapping itself around her legs for instance? Some horses will not panic at anything much granted but most will if the circumstances are stressful enough. Some people are lucky and never find themselves in a catastrophic situation with a young horse, some are experienced enough to ensure it is unlikely to happen and other times the s.it hits the fan and the horse pays the price.

I understand your comment. But if I had simply sat there and done nothing I would be rewarding that behaviour, if never get her out at all.

 

[shortstuff99]

What happened between 3 and 4? She's gone from eating to bolting.

I also think there are ways to move a young horse forward before we get to a big kick.

 

[Storm20]

What happened between 3 and 4? She's gone from eating to bolting.

I also think there are ways to move a young horse forward before we get to a big kick.

That's fine but I prefer to nip bad behaviour in the bud
She went to put head up and felt her leg caught in the rein spooked and bolted

 

[shortstuff99]

That's fine but I prefer to nip bad behaviour in the bud
She went to put head up and felt her leg caught in the rein spooked and bolted

Okay, I think that does give her a reason to have panicked then. I would (after she heals) send her for some professional training (explaining the situation) as at least they would be able to tell you whether it was a lost cause or not.

 

[HazuraJane]

Yes she was broken and sold.
Me and another were riding out of our lane, us in front, she stopped and I kicked her to go on and she bronced me, I managed to stay for a while but lost my side stirrup then fell. She then galloped into open field and put her head down and stood on reins. Yes I have ridden young horses especially nappers before.
The vet fees have already exceeded 3000.
My concern is she will do it again, I have never experienced a horse to go into avoidable objects before. I do not want her to end up in a bad home so I will not give away.

This whole scenario started when she stopped and you kicked her to go on. Seems a bit unfair to consider PTS.

 

[dorsetladette]

That reads differently. I don't think this is a PTS scenario TBH. I think you have 2 issues. The first being the beginnings of separation anxiety. She's moved yards is in an unfamiliar situation with unfamiliar people, routines etc. so this is understandable she is clinging to something she feels comfortable with. You need to make her feel comfortable with you! you can do this on the ground while she is healing from her injuries by just spending time with her in the field, stable, grooming, fussing etc. If she is OK to be exercised gently start taking her out for walks in hand. horses are often more confident with new things when they have a handler on the ground rather than a rider on top. Slowly build up the time spent away from her friend and eventually the separation issues will disappear. Secondly, is the panicking with tack etc dangling round her legs so a bit of desensitisation is needed. You can find lots of stuff online to help. Once she is healed I'd get a good understanding trainer to come out to you and work with you and the horse. Start with trainer riding and then you getting on after. Then trainer hacking out and you on another horse if possible and then you on horse and trainer on another. Until yours and the mares confidence in each other has grown.

It'll take awhile but I think it would be worth it.

 

[scats]

With the latest info, I wouldn’t be thinking this isn’t something that could be fixed. The bolt after standing on her rein sounds dramatic, but if she’s yanked and hurt her mouth, that may have caused her to panic. If she’d thrown you off and blind bolted straight off, I’d be more concerned. This actually sounds like an unfortunate series of events and, as we say in the dog world, a few too many ‘triggers’ happened which caused a bit of a freak out. If the same had happened a year down the line, you’d probably have got away with it, but young horses still getting to grips with the whole tack and rider thing can react instinctively at times.

I would try to avoid kicking her in future if she naps, newly broken horses can be easily panicked by that and then they remember something is on top of them and they head into flight mode, often after removing the predator from their back.
I’d return to riding in the school or an enclosed field for a few weeks and rebuild her confidence.

 

[buddylove]

I too don't think it is dire as it first sounded, but I also still think the OP is not attached enough to the mare to get her where she needs to be training wise. Perhaps her best chance would be to sell to an experienced rider/trainer with full disclosure of the events. Likely to be a significant hit finance wise, but if your hearts not in it, it's the best shot for the horse's future.

 

[Teaboy]

I’d be sending her to a really good professional young horse rider/breaker and explain the situation. It sounds like she had a valid reason to panic.

 

[tristar]

young tb,.noted more for reactivity than stopping to think
newly backed
history not explained here? try to find out more
was she lunged before mounting?
you kicked she bucked
rider falling on floor horse spooks
tack gets tangled
says to self, bloody hell i`m being attacked by collection of monsters
tries to get away from monsters
not looking where going collides with an object ouch ! but monster still after me
collides with other monsters everything hurts but monster still on the attack,

one reason i all ways try to get breakers to tangle themselves on numerous occasions, on riding surface, always lunge for months after backing before riding, never let them learn to buck, i would never kick a young horse, give a lot of thought before mounting any horse, always use safety stirrups and 99 per cent of the time blame myself when it goes wrong.

so sorry you have had bad experience, you are left with a lot problems only you can deal with, i sincerely hope it works out ,let us know what happens for you and the horse
take care xxxxx

 

[ForeverBroke_]

I would not PTS. The horse has unfortunately had a bit of an accident and panicked.

 

[planete]

That reads differently. I don't think this is a PTS scenario TBH. I think you have 2 issues. The first being the beginnings of separation anxiety. She's moved yards is in an unfamiliar situation with unfamiliar people, routines etc. so this is understandable she is clinging to something she feels comfortable with. You need to make her feel comfortable with you! you can do this on the ground while she is healing from her injuries by just spending time with her in the field, stable, grooming, fussing etc. If she is OK to be exercised gently start taking her out for walks in hand. horses are often more confident with new things when they have a handler on the ground rather than a rider on top. Slowly build up the time spent away from her friend and eventually the separation issues will disappear. Secondly, is the panicking with tack etc dangling round her legs so a bit of desensitisation is needed. You can find lots of stuff online to help. Once she is healed I'd get a good understanding trainer to come out to you and work with you and the horse. Start with trainer riding and then you getting on after. Then trainer hacking out and you on another horse if possible and then you on horse and trainer on another. Until yours and the mares confidence in each other has grown.

It'll take awhile but I think it would be worth it.

This. In spades.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

On page one I was mentally screaming PTS before the damn animal kills itself or someone else. By page two I am mentally screaming poor horse, please don't PTS. It would be unnecessary and letting the horse you own down very badly indeed. .. my only comments on how it all kicked off is that a young TB who has very recently been broken in, if done by a reputable professional has probably never been kicked in the ribs - ever - for starters.

It did not bolt it wound itself up a bit when the rider fell off and legged it back to its field companion to have a bit of a feed. It would still be happily grazing there now if it hadn't caught its leg in the dangling rein and the more it tugged the more it hurt - horses flight mode kicks in when they are hurt, and when they feel that hurt increasing the faster and.

He is new to the surroundings so probably got even more wound up when it couldn't find a familiar and safe place to escape to. On the way he managed to pick up a few more injuries adding to his overall panic, pain and distress.........so lets PTS as that seems easiest outcome for everyone but the poor bloody horse.

 

[Trouper]

Well I don't suppose we will ever know exactly what was going on in the horse's mind throughout the incident. The thing is the OP has had a major - and expensive - set back with a new horse and will probably never feel the same way about her again. I think both of them need a fresh start. I agree that (with more detail about the events) the horse should probably be given the benefit of the doubt and go away for some professional training. However experienced the OP, I don't think they are the best person to do this at this time for this horse.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Why would any rider kick a recently backed horse? Why not just use a voice aid?

 

[ycbm]

Why would any rider kick a recently backed horse? Why not just use a voice aid?

For the same reason as anyone would kick an established horse, but not until they have carefully judged whether the horse they are going to kick (give a stronger leg aid to) is not likely to erupt if they do. Recently backed horses (and this one had been in work 4 months by this stage) are often given a stronger leg aid when they have ignored other aids. It depends on the horse.

The trouble with the word 'kick' is that it ranges from anything starting at more than a squeeze to a full on 'feet a foot off the sides' boot.
.

 

[J&S]

My reading of all this is that the young horse was not "set up to succeed". There seemed to have been little or no tact used in the situation. It might have been more sensible to use the presence of another horse (presumably more educated?) to coerce the youngster to move as required. However, given what arose I agree that this horse should be given a fresh start with a more sympathetic trainer. I do hope they both (owner and horse) recover from this unhappy incident.

 

[tristar]

Yes she was broken and sold.
Me and another were riding out of our lane, us in front, she stopped and I kicked her to go on and she bronced me, I managed to stay for a while but lost my side stirrup then fell. She then galloped into open field and put her head down and stood on reins. Yes I have ridden young horses especially nappers before.
The vet fees have already exceeded 3000.
My concern is she will do it again, I have never experienced a horse to go into avoidable objects before. I do not want her to end up in a bad home so I will not give away.

i have seen this happen to a young stallion, he was later competed and had no problems, he was by nature nervous though

 

[BBP]

Mine went through a wooden fence as a young horse, in blind panic following a tack malfunction/serious backing error on my part. I have no doubt he would have gone through or into much more had the tack not broken and come off. He does have very limited self preservation compared to the other horses, in that he falls in the field due to cornering too fast. And has panicked at things other horses don’t give a damn about. But he also turned into a lovely riding horse that I could ride with no bridle. There is no other horse that I enjoy riding as much as I do him. But I was fully invested in him from the start and loved him totally, and I’ve always done everything I can to understand why things happen the way they do. The feel from your post is that you don’t have that level of emotional investment in her.

Just re-read that you’ve only had her a few weeks. It feels pretty early to be giving up on her, she hasn’t really had a chance to bond with you, it’s a lot for her to have taken in as a baby. Some cope with life changes and others take a lot more time.

 

[Orangehorse]

Mind, running into a stationery car is a bit worrying .............

I agree that there was a string of unfortunate events which led to this and I would be inclined to give the horse a chance. Personally I think there is nothing worse than riding a recently backed and broken horse as they don't understand the aids properly. This horse was a backed and broken TB to be sold on. The backing was probably done fine, but I expect they didn't spend any time on spook busting, like having a rider falling off and stopping (using a dummy and feed on the ground) and possibly it had never been kicked by the rider before or even any groundwork other than some lunging.

OP I feel for you. Who would like a horse that had dumped you and then seemingly unreasonably paniced and injured itself leaving you with a big vets bill?

I would recommend reading Linda Tellington-Jones books about the TTouch which is a sort of massage, but not as deep as massage, and her experiences of re-schooling difficult horses and what she does with ground schooling.

Some horses can never be broken to ride though. I know of one, a beautiful 16.00 Welsh Cob, registered and a real looker. It was rehomed by Blue Cross with strict instructions never to be ridden, or attempt to be ridden. It is the sort of horse you would happily buy from the field to take a chance to re-break. It was apparently sent from the stud where it was bred to be broken in, but then the story gets murky and no one know what happened, but although it is nice to handle from the ground just freaks out if any tack or equipment is used. So it has a very nice life and well loved as a companion.

 

[HazuraJane]

Mine went through a wooden fence as a young horse, in blind panic following a tack malfunction/serious backing error on my part. I have no doubt he would have gone through or into much more had the tack not broken and come off. He does have very limited self preservation compared to the other horses, in that he falls in the field due to cornering too fast. And has panicked at things other horses don’t give a damn about. But he also turned into a lovely riding horse that I could ride with no bridle. There is no other horse that I enjoy riding as much as I do him. But I was fully invested in him from the start and loved him totally, and I’ve always done everything I can to understand why things happen the way they do. The feel from your post is that you don’t have that level of emotional investment in her.

Just re-read that you’ve only had her a few weeks. It feels pretty early to be giving up on her, she hasn’t really had a chance to bond with you, it’s a lot for her to have taken in as a baby. Some cope with life changes and others take a lot more time.

I get the feeling the massive vet bill is behind the owner's lack of confidence/faith in the mare. Admitting one has made a massive error judgment (young inexperienced horse in the lead position, horse stops, gets a boot to the side, horse reacts, owner's take was a personal one, "She bronced me" rather than "She bronced/started bucking" things escalate terribly) means throwing one's ego away and saying, I was wrong.

 

[ycbm]

I get where people are coming from that it's too early to condemn this horse. But its behaviour was really extreme. Nothing has happened to it that hasn't happened to many other horses at the same stage of their training. I've had one I was breaking bust straight through the door out of a stable as I tightened the girth a little, and run round the field with the saddle under its belly until I could get close enough to get it off. I've kicked (more than squeezed, not booted) horses which had only been broken a short time.

Every time I read of a horse like this I think of one bred by my neighbour. It was difficult to back, with a hair trigger reaction to anything which upset it. It was sent to an eventing pro to bring on and it broke the pro's leg into little pieces. It was sold with full disclosure and broke the next person's arm. Then it was shot.

In these cases now I'm afraid I err on the side of safety for the humans.
.

 

[tristar]

i always girth up a starter out doors with someone holding its head, and proceed very very gradually, i would not let it move until it was used to the girth being tight enough so the saddle will not slip, but not fully tight.

under no circumstances would i ever kick a horse just backed, if it did not move forward, i would have a go the next day, with someone at its head, i`ve only had one that needed this, i got on for the third attempt, gave leg aid walk on and he just walked forward nicely, sometimes it just needs to sink in

but i usually lunge and long rein for ages

also we trail thing behind them, like lunge reins, which must look like a snake on the floor running after them






s before backing

 

[ycbm]

under no circumstances would i ever kick a horse just backed

This horse wasn't just backed. It had been under saddle about 4 months.
.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Mind, running into a stationery car is a bit worrying .............

I agree totally - but I now very strongly suspect we did not get quite the whole story on this bit of the shenanigans either. Or any bit of the complete picture come to that - sorry if that is blunt but it is my belief and my opinion.

 

[ycbm]

I agree totally - but I now very strongly suspect we did not get quite the whole story on this bit of the shenanigans either. Or any bit of the complete picture come to that - sorry if that is blunt but it is my belief and my opinion.

Isn't the most sensible approach, until we have information to the contrary, to respond as if the facts are as they have been given?
.

 

[Michen]

I get the feeling the massive vet bill is behind the owner's lack of confidence/faith in the mare. Admitting one has made a massive error judgment (young inexperienced horse in the lead position, horse stops, gets a boot to the side, horse reacts, owner's take was a personal one, "She bronced me" rather than "She bronced/started bucking" things escalate terribly) means throwing one's ego away and saying, I was wrong.

I don’t think it really matters what the owner did. If she had kicked it whilst socking it in the mouth with a curb chain it’s irrelevant. The horse got loose and went into a stationary object. I wouldn’t personally ever want to get on that horse again even if it was being chased by lions- I’d hope anything I was trusting my life to by getting on would have enough sense to go around it- or at the very least try.

To me it’s the same as horses that rear and flip over because of pain. That’s fine if there’s a reason- Justify it all you want- but I don’t want to get on a horse that reacts like that to pain. Because you never know when a horse may suddenly experience pain (stung by something etc). I wouldn’t want to be on a horse that reacts like that to panic (aka crashing into a stationary car- not the bolting itself- which would IMO be a different story given the age and situation).

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Isn't the most sensible approach, until we have information to the contrary, to respond as if the facts are as they have been given?
.

I would say so and I agreed with you early in the thread but then the story changed and so did my opinion.