Selling Unsound horses

[confusedmum]

Is it just me ?? I’ve been looking for a horse to replace the one I had to have PTS and I am horrified by the amount of horses for sale that that have soundness issues
they are advertised as much loved and wanted but sadly for sale due to kissing spine op psd tendon issues you name it and these people want a “ “forever home “ for them but are not prepared to keep them themselves
I might be old fashioned but if any of my horses have long term health issues they are treated with the love and respect they have shown me and not chucked away like a disposable Nappy ! It incenses me that these horses give their all for you and are passed on when they are no longer capable of doing what they were purchased for ! If it’s that bad be a proper owner and have the horse PTS don’t palm your problems off on someone else how do they sleep at night not knowing how that horse is and what had happened to it ?

 

[Pinkvboots]

It's sad isn't it it seems to be such a common thing these days we live in a very throw away culture

 

[scats]

I saw someone looking to rehome a 20 year old TB who had been lame for several years and unrideable as a result. The owner could no longer afford it and wanted it to go to a forever home as a pet/companion.
When a few people suggested that it might be kinder to secure his future and PTS, rather than risk being passed from pillar to post, people trying to ride it etc, they were absolutely shot down by the owner. Apparently they wouldn’t dream of putting their ‘healthy’ horse down and anyone suggesting that was frankly vile...

 

[confusedmum]

I saw someone looking to rehome a 20 year old TB who had been lame for several years and unrideable as a result. The owner could no longer afford it and wanted it to go to a forever home as a pet/companion.
When a few people suggested that it might be kinder to secure his future and PTS, rather than risk being passed from pillar to post, people trying to ride it etc, they were absolutely shot down by the owner. Apparently they wouldn’t dream of putting their ‘healthy’ horse down and anyone suggesting that was frankly vile...

Isn’t that sad the poor horse I will never understand people who put themselves before their horses
Have they no regard for the quality of life of that horse ?

 

[scats]

Isn’t that sad the poor horse I will never understand people who put themselves before their horses
Have they no regard for the quality of life of that horse ?

I can only assume people just see things so differently. To me it’s a no-brainer. I know what happens to a lot of these ‘free companion’ horses and I’d never put a horse in that situation.
I don’t know whether some people are just oblivious to this or think it won’t happen to their horse.

 

[Widgeon]

I can only assume people just see things so differently....I don’t know whether some people are just oblivious to this or think it won’t happen to their horse.

I think you're right here. I hope I don't explain this badly, but I think that to an extent our society doesn't deal very well with death. It's seen as something to be put off for as long as possible in humans, and then this attitude carries over into our treatment of animals. Life seems to be prolonged at any cost, including at the cost of having any quality of life. Personally I do think that humans and animals are different, but I think there is an element of our fear of the unknown and societal attitudes to death in humans that we transfer to our animals. It's hard to explain to someone who's having an instinctive "yuck" reaction to the idea of shooting a horse, that perhaps a happy life and a pain free death is preferable to a prolonged sad, sore "retirement".

 

[Surbie]

It's been a real eye-opener seeing what my friends are going through when looking to buy new horses. I think it's incredibly sad for the poor horses that the owners are prepared to sell them on or gift them, knowing that they have serious issues.

 

[Goldenstar]

Lots of people don’t want to face up to their duty to older horses and horses that have gone wrong .
My time as a welfare officer freed me from any qualms about putting horses with issues to sleep .
Its a nasty world out there .

 

[scruffyponies]

Just to put a counterpoint (not that I disagree with anything that has been said above), there are times when it can work. A horse which is no longer fit for competition may be fine for a bit of hacking. Time and turnout, if you have it, will fix many issues which are too difficult or expensive in other circumstances (like if you're paying livery, for example).

A pony given to me FTGH unsound stayed with us for 20 years, hunting and hacking like a demon to the end (aged c.35). He didn't get better; we just didn't ask him to do circles on a soft surface, which obviously caused him pain.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

And here I felt guilty about selling a horse with a quarter crack on the mend.

I, as a horse owner, accept if the horse comes down with some condition that renders them unrideable, it's on me to provide that forever home. Unless I run into some sort of extreme financial situation where I legit could not afford the ongoing costs. Then I'd have the horse euth'd.

I do know of a very unsound older horse, and the owner was very lucky in finding a care lease/share for 1 year (or longer). But that is so rare that someone wants to literally help pay for your horse and care for it. In fact, I've still no idea how that even happened.

 

[ihatework]

I don’t think it’s black and white.

I completely agree with the sentiment of not selling on seriously unsound/aged horses because you haven’t got the guts to PTS.

But there are plenty of horses out there with medical conditions that are reasonably easily managed if in the right home and doing an appropriate job.

Horses who have had KS or PSD surgery May (or may not) fall into that category.

The devil is in the detail.

 

[confusedmum]

Lots of people don’t want to face up to their duty to older horses and horses that have gone wrong .
My time as a welfare officer freed me from any qualms about putting horses with issues to sleep .
Its a nasty world out there .

Yes I totally agree I was brought up that your horses welfare came first before anything else and if you can’t live by that don’t have one !
they are your responsibility from start to finish no excuses !

 

[Buster2020]

Unfortunately I have seen it myself in yards. The horses I have seen wasn't even sound enough to hack and the seller hopped that buyers didn’t notice . My personal opinion is that any horse with soundness issues Shouldn’t be sold .

 

[splashgirl45]

i took an ex hunting horse on loan as the owner felt the horse wouldnt stay sound if she was hunted hard. she was a homebred mare and the owner still had the mother who sadly passed away last year aged 35...i was a good home as i just wanted to hack, i had to give her up after 2 years as i physically couldnt manage the winters , owner had her back and has lent her to a friend for hacking with her granddaughter so horse is still being well looked after. if friend feels the horse is not able to be ridden and she cant keep her, then the owner will have her back for retirement for as long as she is comfortable. a good owner and good loaners, thats how it should be....

 

[turkana]

Somebody on my previous yard actually said to me "a life in pain is better than no life". When discussing her crippled, skeletal old horse, she genuinely believes she is doing the right thing by him.
Some people can't deal with death & think life at all costs is right.

 

[Brownmare]

I think you're right here. I hope I don't explain this badly, but I think that to an extent our society doesn't deal very well with death. It's seen as something to be put off for as long as possible in humans, and then this attitude carries over into our treatment of animals. Life seems to be prolonged at any cost, including at the cost of having any quality of life. Personally I do think that humans and animals are different, but I think there is an element of our fear of the unknown and societal attitudes to death in humans that we transfer to our animals. It's hard to explain to someone who's having an instinctive "yuck" reaction to the idea of shooting a horse, that perhaps a happy life and a pain free death is preferable to a prolonged sad, sore "retirement".

I agree with you 100%. I have been shocked at some of the procedures animals are put through to prolong their lives regardless of quality, although it seems to be worse with small companion animals than horses. People's fear of death is extreme now it seems but, as a farmer, I observe that animals are not scared of death and are very pragmatic about it i.e. a cow will shout for her dead calf and try to get it to move, sometimes for hours, but once she has decided it is dead the calf is ignored and she will even walk over it if it is left with her long enough. Sheep will often lie on and kill a lamb they know has something wrong with it rather than feed it at the expense of their other healthy lamb. A dead or dying adult cow or sheep out in a field will never normally have any of its mates standing over it, and sheep in particular will simply decide to die and just stop trying even with a treatable condition. When one of our dogs died, his friend was very subdued for a few days but the other didn't bat an eyelid and immediately claimed his bed!

I would always choose a quick, clean death for any animal in my care if I couldn't give it a good quality of life or a secure future.

 

[Bernster]

I don’t think it’s black and white.

I completely agree with the sentiment of not selling on seriously unsound/aged horses because you haven’t got the guts to PTS.

But there are plenty of horses out there with medical conditions that are reasonably easily managed if in the right home and doing an appropriate job.

Horses who have had KS or PSD surgery May (or may not) fall into that category.

The devil is in the detail.

I agree I think it’s more nuanced than that and a fair few people will be doing this with good intentions. They might be naive, they might be proven wrong, and you might not take the same approach, but it doesn’t mean they are necessarily evil or uncaring.

personally if a horse of mine does get a long term issue, then I know it’s my responsibility for the rest of its life and I will do what I can to make sure they have a good life. But I’m in a position to do that. I’d be more likely to pts than pass it on, if I couldn’t provide for it, and def would if it were in pain.

 

[Tally05]

I can see both sides.. it might be unsound to ride but perfectly fine to be a companion. Theres no reason why it couldnt go on to have a happy pain free life doing that etc. I think some people out there will have the money and be happy to take a gamble of bringing a horse sound. These sellers might just be seeing if someone else wants a go, before they commit to pts? I totally agree though a horse should be pts when it's that or living a life in pain!

 

[Steerpike]

Somebody on my previous yard actually said to me "a life in pain is better than no life". When discussing her crippled, skeletal old horse, she genuinely believes she is doing the right thing by him.
Some people can't deal with death & think life at all costs is right.

I'm dealing with similar at the moment with my sister in law which makes it even trickier

 

[Ish2020]

I think a lot of people nowadays can’t afford horses so when something goes wrong they don’t have the money to afford the horse so they ended up selling the horse . I think there is a stigma about putting horses to sleep nowadays and the horse ends suffering for to long.

 

[WandaMare]

I have been horse hunting recently and been very saddened by some of the adverts I've seen. The 'don't be put off by his /her age' thing always put me off immediately, some of the horses I saw were in their mid-twenties, who could betray an old friend like that, its mind blowing.

I think it all comes down to being able to take responsibility, some people take their responsibilities seriously and some people can't or just don't. At our cattery, we have reminders on all our comms asking customers to let us know of any illnesses, health issues before they bring their cat to the cattery. You get everything from the honest ones who ring to say it sneezed once and could it still come, to those who arrive with an extremely ill animal in the carrier. We've even had ones who bring a sick, elderly cat and ask us to arrange for them to be pts while they are here....so I'm not surprised anymore when I see these poor old horses up for sale, I just remind myself it is actually the minority of people, most people do the right thing.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I agree with you 100%. I have been shocked at some of the procedures animals are put through to prolong their lives regardless of quality, although it seems to be worse with small companion animals than horses. People's fear of death is extreme now it seems but, as a farmer, I observe that animals are not scared of death and are very pragmatic about it i.e. a cow will shout for her dead calf and try to get it to move, sometimes for hours, but once she has decided it is dead the calf is ignored and she will even walk over it if it is left with her long enough. Sheep will often lie on and kill a lamb they know has something wrong with it rather than feed it at the expense of their other healthy lamb. A dead or dying adult cow or sheep out in a field will never normally have any of its mates standing over it, and sheep in particular will simply decide to die and just stop trying even with a treatable condition. When one of our dogs died, his friend was very subdued for a few days but the other didn't bat an eyelid and immediately claimed his bed!

I would always choose a quick, clean death for any animal in my care if I couldn't give it a good quality of life or a secure future.

We had a much loved elderly Lab bitch pts at home in front of the fire with her younger companions all around her. They were always respectful of her space but when they were allowed to look at the body before she was removed, they stood on her as if she was just another rug - they knew that the 'spark/soul/whatever you want to call it' was gone.


If an owner can't afford/doesn't want to pay for the keep of a retired from competition horse, they should loan it to a trusted person for a lower level life, or if that isn't possible pts themselves, imo.

 

[Flame_]

I can see both sides.. it might be unsound to ride but perfectly fine to be a companion. Theres no reason why it couldnt go on to have a happy pain free life doing that etc. I think some people out there will have the money and be happy to take a gamble of bringing a horse sound. These sellers might just be seeing if someone else wants a go, before they commit to pts? I totally agree though a horse should be pts when it's that or living a life in pain!

The trouble is that cast-off, unsound competition horses don't make the best companions or happy hacks - middle-aged, middle-sized, sound, healthy, cheap to feed, bred to have less athletic qualities and saner temperaments horses do, so why should the people who are looking for these take on someone else's supposed to be the next Totilas or Kauto Star but turned out walking vet bill (or worse, horses that were all that and just aren't anymore) instead? It has to be OK and even encouraged that people just pts unsound and unhealthy horses that are not going to get better.

 

[confusedmum]

I can see both sides.. it might be unsound to ride but perfectly fine to be a companion. Theres no reason why it couldnt go on to have a happy pain free life doing that etc. I think some people out there will have the money and be happy to take a gamble of bringing a horse sound. These sellers might just be seeing if someone else wants a go, before they commit to pts? I totally agree though a horse should be pts when it's that or living a life in pain!

It’s the sentiment of the adverts that upset me ! How can they advertise for a “ forever home “ when they won’t keep it ? When a horse is aged or chronically unsound there are only 2 choices you keep it or you PTS
How would we feel to have been ridden loved competed And generally cherished to be abandoned when we get ill Or too old . death isn’t the worst outcome neglect and betrayal is and I’m sorry but once you pass on a sick or aged lame horse you have no control over what happens to it But perhaps that’s what these people are hoping for ! They no longer have the responsibility for it

 

[pansymouse]

If you have ever had to watch a once vibrant person fade and die a slow and miserable death you understand quote what a wonderful and loving gift a quick and painless exit is. I find a lot of people these days are too self absorbed to be able face the responsibly of taking a difficult and painful (for them) decision and would rather live in a fantasy world where old and broken animals can be passed onto retirement Nirvana. They choose to complete block out the reality that for the vast majority they are willing passing them into a horrible end of life.

 

[honetpot]

I agree with you 100%. I have been shocked at some of the procedures animals are put through to prolong their lives regardless of quality, although it seems to be worse with small companion animals than horses. People's fear of death is extreme now it seems but, as a farmer, I observe that animals are not scared of death and are very pragmatic about it i.e. a cow will shout for her dead calf and try to get it to move, sometimes for hours, but once she has decided it is dead the calf is ignored and she will even walk over it if it is left with her long enough. Sheep will often lie on and kill a lamb they know has something wrong with it rather than feed it at the expense of their other healthy lamb. A dead or dying adult cow or sheep out in a field will never normally have any of its mates standing over it, and sheep in particular will simply decide to die and just stop trying even with a treatable condition. When one of our dogs died, his friend was very subdued for a few days but the other didn't bat an eyelid and immediately claimed his bed!

I would always choose a quick, clean death for any animal in my care if I couldn't give it a good quality of life or a secure future.

I thought it was only me that thinks the world has gone mad. Nature is tough, hanging around something that is dead or injured leaves the other animals in the herd exposed to danger. The scent of death or blood attracts animals further up the food chain or carrion, even the humble fly will in like Flynn, even when the animals not dead. If you have seen a sheep with fly strike it's literally being eaten alive.
As an owner we have a duty to protect as much as humanly possible you care what ever it is, from suffering. Horses have a monetary value, and selling them in normal circumstances is lottery, even when you think that you have found a knowledgeable home. Selling something with a problem tips the odds any further in it being cared for properly, by selling something that most people seem to not have the time, money or knowledge to manage.
Disposal costs roughly £300, if you use a fallen stock company, you can even pay by credit card. I wish people would stop buying things which most of the time horses do not need, and put the money aside for its disposal.
I think unfortunately coming up to Christmas like the lock down puppies these animals are going to be dumped, and by spring the ones left out with little to eat will be half starved. I have a pony from 2012 which was dumped with its dam that winter because hay was expensive.

 

[stormox]

Years ago if a horse couldnt be ridden or had an incurable condition, it was sent to the knackers or hunt kennels. People seem to want to keep them till they die of old age now! Either that or pass them on in the mistaken belief they will die of old age in their next home.

 

[NinjaPony]

I find passing on unsound/chronically ill horses so sad, and so irresponsible. It goes against everything I personally value about horse ownership. They aren't machines, you don't get to trade in when they go wrong. I've had one pony retired at 10 for 13 years now. He has hock spavins, is 11.2hh and very sharp/difficult in the wrong hands. So I kept him, because I wanted to secure his future. Now, my wonderful, saintly connemara has been retired permanently with chronic lung damage. So now I have two, expensive pets. Can't afford a third. But I made a commitment, and a promise to them both. My connie in particular has given me the best 9 riding years of my life. I would NEVER just pass him on, he's my responsibility. So I have just accepted I won't be able to have a ridden horse for a few more years. THAT is what a 'forever' home means!!

 

[honetpot]

but it doesn’t mean they are necessarily evil or uncaring.

That is not a justification for causing and animal suffering. We have a culture that everything can be saved, and if you decide that it's better for an animal to be PTS you are uncaring. I have even had a friend say I do not care, because I do not spend weeks weeping a wailing over the death of my animals. I have been present when a lot of people have died, including my mum, unfortunately not everyone get the movie picture perfect clean pain free death. We are lucky that we are able to give our animals a quick trauma free death, there should be no shame in using it.

 

[confusedmum]

That is not a justification for causing and animal suffering. We have a culture that everything can be saved, and if you decide that it's better for an animal to be PTS you are uncaring. I have even had a friend say I do not care, because I do not spend weeks weeping a wailing over the death of my animals. I have been present when a lot of people have died, including my mum, unfortunately not everyone get the movie picture perfect clean pain free death. We are lucky that we are able to give our animals a quick trauma free death, there should be no shame in using it.

Well said !!