Serious advice needed please; Sticky situation!

[LuckyLaneRider]

Hi there, this is my first forum post, wow! Haha.
Anyway... i have a bit of a horse problem-ish & it's running over & over through my mind. So i'm looking to you guys for advice & general answers to this tricky situation... Sorry for the long essay but hopefully it'll be worth the read!

I have a gorgeous 13.2 new forest pony, i broke him in & excersised him for his non-horsey owners (who just couldn't be bothered with looking after a pony) two years ago. I then loaned him for approxiamately six months before them handing him over to me, i was given him for free but we didn't really discuss much more other than over the phone they basically said 'take him, we don't want him anymore, he's no use to us, you can have him, we know he'll be well looked after' so i moved him away & we've lived peacefully together for roughly 10 months time now, his previous owners have not been in proper contact.

Me & the pony gone have gone through a fair few things over our time together & my first real 'ownership'... re-schooling & a virus (Vets fee for that = owch!) & a huge learning curve. He recognises me as his 'Mum' & we have the most incredible bond. He's gone from a pretty much un-broken pony to a fabulous potential show & the perfect family pony. I love him so very much & would be devestated if i lost him.

About a month ago i went to change his ownership as i just hadn't got round to it, but his previous owners acted suspicous & asked me not to change it at the moment. It was a little odd but i thought no more of it. Possibly they wanted the security that he would not be sold on?

...So yesterday i was giving a young girl a lesson on him (She rides him twice a week & contributes toward his keep) & whilst i was giving the lesson i saw two people climb over the gate into the school - it was my pony's old owners! I asked them how they were & everything & had a good old chat but suspicously they continued to hang around with no reason why they were here. After the lesson, whilst i was outside clearing up, they enquired into how much his livery was at my yard & apparently told a fellow horse owner that my pony was actually their daughters pony?! They then asked me for the padlock codes to the pony's field & the barn.. I asked why & they said 'just in-case'... in-case of what?! Then they said their daughter would like to come back & ride on Tuesday

They have never shown an interest in this pony & all of a sudden they've marched in seeming a little bit as if they were always here & they still own the pony!
I'm very confused, possibly they were under the assumption i was full loaning him? But they've never said so? Also why the sudden interest & whats with the padlock codes?
It sounds to me like they want the pony back & are trying to sneak their way back in? This is very confusing & i'm left un-certain of our future & what exactly is going on - will my pony still be here in three weeks time? Do i own a pony, or do i loan one?! Help!

It's a possibility they just want 'one more ride' or something, but it all seems a little more suspicous than that to me?

Opinions please....?

 

[AmyMay]

It sounds to me like they want the pony back & are trying to sneak their way back in?

Just ask them what is happening and what their intentions are, surely?

 

[yorkiechick08]

I'd just express your concerns to them, that you were under the impression that the pony was yours as they had said take him they don't want him, and you're now confused that they want to use the pony for their daughter to ride. but definitely do not let them have any codes to padlocks

 

[Snowysadude]

Do you have any contracts with them saying you are loaning etc? If not i would change the ownership to you asap, not sure exactly of the legal side but I know after two weeks with dogs and cats if no papers can be produced to say you dont own them you are just looking after them and you can prove you have had the animal in your possesion its yours (ie for horses show livery bills and other bills you have!). Not sure if that would work.

Of course the easier option is to confront the old owners and ask them why exactly they want to get involved, explain that you are happy for them to do so, but the horse is not yours and you will be having his ownership changed asap. If they say they want the pony back then you have issues!!

 

[BBH]

Move the pony until things are resolved. I don't say that lightly but my friend rescued a v good SJer from a field in Germany. He'd had a broken leg and was left neglected. As soon as she rehabilitied him and got him working again the old owners tracked him down wanting him back and it all got very nasty.

It sounds like they couldn't be bothered until you had done the hard work and now he's looking super and is what they want they want him back.

Its a shame you don't have anything in writing but its all verbal. However I would clarify what their intentions are. It may be very innocent and they are happy to see him progress and just want to say hello.

 

[Booboos]

Did any money change hands for the sale?
Passports are not proof of ownership but new owners do need to register within a month of purchase.

Those are the only relevant things I can think about, other than that, I would talk to a lawyer asap to find out where you stand.

 

[Annieroo12]

i agree totally with LHS. you should really get to the bottom of what their intentions are. it could all be innocent however asking for codes is slightly worrying so thinking you prob know not to give that sort of info out. there should be some sort of contract in place to definately determine the owner of the pony because as mentioned things like this could get nasty. so all i would do is discuss with them the issue and if it is just a case of the daughter wanting to ride then organise this properly dont let them just come or give them any codes!!! hope you get to the bottom of it all.

 

[Chavhorse]

I agree with Suspicious .

Firstly may i just hit you for not getting it all in writing

But I agree with Amy May sit them down and "calmly" ask what is going on and what they want. Then agree on outcome, maybe you need to offer a token payment then get the name switched over in the passport.

If they want the pony back you can only appeal to their sense of fairness.

Let us know how it goes

 

[LuckyLaneRider]

I feel like hitting myself for not getting it all in writing too!

On Tuesday after their daughter has had her ride i will have a proper chat & just ask what their intentions are.

I'll definetly keep you guys updated!

 

[LuckyLaneRider]

Do you have any contracts with them saying you are loaning etc? If not i would change the ownership to you asap, not sure exactly of the legal side but I know after two weeks with dogs and cats if no papers can be produced to say you dont own them you are just looking after them and you can prove you have had the animal in your possesion its yours (ie for horses show livery bills and other bills you have!). Not sure if that would work.

I have no contract saying i am loaning but neither do i have any proof of ownership, i would change the ownership right now, i have the passport ready but just don't know where i stand legally if that would seem wrong?
I have a record of my weekly livery bills for about the last 3 months & vets bills & insurance documents since last year, that could possibly work?

 

[ihatework]

I actually wouldn't let their daughter come and ride, as horrid as that sounds, but you do need to sit down with these people and find out exactly what your/their expectations are before you can make any further descisions. I also wouldn't be handing out paddock codes at this point in time.

I think you might need to be prepared to either offiicially buy this pony off them or alternatively be prepared to hand it back.

 

[LuckyLaneRider]

Move the pony until things are resolved. I don't say that lightly but my friend rescued a v good SJer from a field in Germany. He'd had a broken leg and was left neglected. As soon as she rehabilitied him and got him working again the old owners tracked him down wanting him back and it all got very nasty.

It sounds like they couldn't be bothered until you had done the hard work and now he's looking super and is what they want they want him back.

To LHS - Move him? Actually does sound like a good idea but if it is just happy check-up it would possibly be not the best thing to do.

It is such a coincidence that now the Summer is here (Hard work of winter is over!) & he's schooled & looking good, they're interested in him! Urgh. The people have been known as sort of dealers (Not in horses but Motorbikes, Saddles, You name it) & my (or theres depending on where i stand legally?
) pony was seen at a show with me & looking absolutely amazing if i do say so myself about three weeks ago.

There are so many possibilities of what could be running through these peoples minds & so many things that could be their intentions. I am going to ask them on Tuesday but in the mean-time i will be running around worrying all weekend! If they are wanting him back i will be so completely devastated i will not know what to do, i planned to keep him for life!

I'll keep everyone updated on what happnes Tuesday.

Regards - a very worried person!

 

[Hoofprints in the Snow]

If they did want him back, give them a bill first for breaking, schooling with all vets farrier livery fees etc, might put them off!!! They can't expect anyone to do all that for nothing surely.

 

[touchstone]

I actually wouldn't let their daughter come and ride, as horrid as that sounds, but you do need to sit down with these people and find out exactly what your/their expectations are before you can make any further descisions. I also wouldn't be handing out paddock codes at this point in time.

I think you might need to be prepared to either offiicially buy this pony off them or alternatively be prepared to hand it back.

I agree with this, it seems that because the pony now could be of use to them they are wanting it back, you really need to sort out their intentions before you can do anything. If the pony was effectively given to you they can't just swan in and ride it when it suits and once you start allowing that I think you would be on a very slippery slope to them 'taking over' completely.

 

[LuckyLaneRider]

I think you might need to be prepared to either offiicially buy this pony off them or alternatively be prepared to hand it back.

I shouldn't have to buy a pony that was, & is, technically mine, but i'm prepared it might come down to it. I will put up a good fight for him but at the end of the day my chances don't look good if they do want him back. I can't afford to buy him - i've poured a lot of money into keeping my gorgeous pony happy & healthy over time & don't have funds left to actually buy him (never thought i'd need to, he was already my pony!) & neither do i have proof of ownership, i never in a million years thought this kind of scenario would happen but we'll see what goes on.

I might be making something out of nothing but i've got a bad feeling & this all seems extremely suspicous to me & it seems like lots of other people too.

 

[LuckyLaneRider]

Yes to touchstone, if they don't want him back but want to come in & start riding all the time i won't let it happen - basically me keeping a pony for somebody else & that's just not right.

& to lost - I would feel certainly feel like charging them! His vets fee last year all inclusive was £300!

 

[Hoofprints in the Snow]

Try not to get too worried (easy to say I know) but even with no proof of ownership I would expect they would have to explain why they let you have him for so long without a contract. The bill aspect may help put them off IF it was their intention to take him back. I agree don't let the daughter ride him, he may not be as good with her (if you get my drift)

 

[Laura1812]

If they did want him back, give them a bill first for breaking, schooling with all vets farrier livery fees etc, might put them off!!! They can't expect anyone to do all that for nothing surely.

Echo this entirely. My friend was in a similar situation with an ex-polo pony. When he was re schooled and going well and looking good old owner suddenly reappeared asking for money to buy him.

She got the farrier to write out all his bills, vets, livery, feeds, time spent on schooling and caring for him at £10 an hour etc. Said if he wasn't hers then she would invoice for all the costs and he was free to come and collect him.

Of course all the costs outweighed the value and funnily enough she has never heard a squeak since.

Because there is no loan agreement there is nothing saying that you are covering costs etc and if they are the owner they owe you lots.

Good luck

 

[Baileyhoss]

What a horrible situation.

I agree with the above, that I wouldn't let the daughter ride until this is resolved. They need to decide properly whether they gave you the pony or not. If they did, then get them to confirm in writing, then the pony is yours, change passport details immediately and you can choose if you let their daughter ride or not as a favour to them.

If they say they didn't give you the pony, then you may need to call their bluff be prepared to walk away, advise them that you feel they have backtracked on a verbal agreement and they can immediately take over ownership, including the livery, exercise, insurance payments, feeds, farrier bills, worming and you could also ask them to reimburse you for vets fees.

 

[cindydog]

A friend of mine was given a shetland by someone who could not be bothered and did hit her ( no contract ) a few months later they came calling wanting pony back, o/h went into house returned with a bill for full livery, vet, farrier, tack and said settle this and you can have her..guess what.. yes friend still has her.
dont let child ride pony say leg swollen and is on box rest.

 

[EAST KENT]

Move the pony and change the ownership..make it legal by paying them a nominal amount..like £1.00.Personally I would let the kid ride it ..after giving it about 10lbs of oats the day before.

 

[Orangehorse]

Agree with the bill for all your work, but keep this in the background just in case you need it.

My sister took on a foal that her neighbours had bought on a whim, but they lost interest after a couple of months, so they said my sister could have him. She insisted on giving them some money, about $100, and paid by cheque. When he was 4 they rolled up and wanted him back, as he was by then a really nice looking horse. She was able to produce the cheque stud and receipt to say that he was hers, so it was all OK.

 

[Show Girl]

Hi ya, you might find that because they said take him he's yours, this forms a verbal contract, and as such he is YOURS.
Do not let the daughter ride him as this will seem like you are backing down, as the pony is at livery and (presumeably) they do not have any other horses there they are definately NOT entitled to know the combinations to any padlocks as they do not have a contract with the yard owner, as you are the one paying all the livery bills not them the contract is with you.
If they start to get funny about this produce all the bills you have and ask them to settle them as they think the pony belongs to them, give them a bill for all your time as well !
Failing that move him asap !
Good luck hun xxx

 

[LuckyLaneRider]

ORANGEHORSE - That's an extremely lucky thing your sister had the receipt! Well done to her! I so wish i had insisted on paying some money & had it all in writing. I'm certainly learning i will never do anything without receipt & proof anymore. If i lose my pony i will kick myself so hard (& probably kick his previous owners too! Lol), this pony is really one of the most important things to me.

EAST KENT - I have seriously considered giving him oats etc! The child has barely ever ridden & is a skinny 4 foot something who would have no chance of holding him back!!

 

[Fransurrey]

I third/fourth that you should not let the daughter ride until this is resolved. Even if you were full loaning him, they would not have the right to demand rides as and when. I was in a similar situation when I took on my first exmoor, in that I was 'given him'. At the first opportunity, I handed over £250 to my friend to give to her mother, who was the official owner, even though by that time (3 years on), I'd have killed the whole family before letting them take him back, lol!

I would phone the family, ask for a meeting with the owner (whoever appears on the documents) with a witness either side and agree a nominal purchase fee based on his worth at the time they said they didn't want him. Should they argue his increased worth, have ready his vet bills and your 'breaking fees' and place them on the table in front of them, alongside a breakdown of livery bill, farrier bill, hay bill - anything that is due on a regular basis.

I agree with Baileyhoss' last paragraph about calling their bluff. If they don't agree with cheap sale OR the breaking/vet fees you lay down, immediately 'hand over' ownership and inform them that 'their' pony is waiting to be fed and cared for. Point out to them that there are severe penalties for the neglect of horses and phone the livery yard in front of them to inform them of the 'new ownership'.

With regards to the last bit, is it possible to involve your yard owner in this, or another livery? If you need to call their bluff like this, you need a contringency plan. It's obviously not an option to just leave your pony unfed and cared for, so you'll need the assistance of another livery to feed him just in case, without them knowing. The yard owner will need to present them with the bill, even if you intend to pay for it, should they not turn up at the yard. That way you can warn the yard that they may get a phone call after the meeting, at which point, the emergency care can start (with either you paying them or performing return favours - oo er!). Does that make sense?

 

[LuckyLaneRider]

Show Girl - Thank you for the luck. I'm gonna need it! x

 

[R2R]

I actually wouldn't let their daughter come and ride, as horrid as that sounds, but you do need to sit down with these people and find out exactly what your/their expectations are before you can make any further descisions. I also wouldn't be handing out paddock codes at this point in time.

I think you might need to be prepared to either offiicially buy this pony off them or alternatively be prepared to hand it back.

Ditto this,

My advice would be to call, apologise and say you are not available on Tuesday. Whilst you are having the conversation, ask them outright why the sudden interest, and explain your concerns that you had heard they said it was still their pony.

Then take the situation from there.

Schooling and breaking livery is £160 a week in Hampshire, I would conclude that is ‘the going rate’ and if they get difficult, say you will take them to small claims for the breaking/schooling/vets costs.

And next time get paperwork!!

 

[Show Girl]

Show Girl - Thank you for the luck. I'm gonna need it! x

No probs hun us Hampshire girls have to stick together ! xxx

 

[R2R]

Move the pony and change the ownership..make it legal by paying them a nominal amount..like £1.00.Personally I would let the kid ride it ..after giving it about 10lbs of oats the day before.

That did cross my mind lol!!!

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I have no contract saying i am loaning but neither do i have any proof of ownership, i would change the ownership right now, i have the passport ready but just don't know where i stand legally if that would seem wrong?
I have a record of my weekly livery bills for about the last 3 months & vets bills & insurance documents since last year, that could possibly work?

In the law's eyes, the best proof of ownership is the livery bills-passports mean almost nothing and the Police won't get involved in most equine matters.

She got the farrier to write out all his bills, vets, livery, feeds, time spent on schooling and caring for him at £10 an hour etc. Said if he wasn't hers then she would invoice for all the costs and he was free to come and collect him.

Of course all the costs outweighed the value and funnily enough she has never heard a squeak since.

^^ Do this!

There is no way you should let the kid ride him-claim unspecified illness and pony in field/boxrest.

Am dying to hear the outcome of this one: there is no way they can possibly claim him back. Idiots.