Serious advice needed please; Sticky situation!

[trundle]

I also don't think it would be a good idea to let this child ride the pony - you say she isn't a good rider, and the pony is quite a different character from how he was when you got him. They may be implying that he is "theirs" right now, but trust me, if their daughter rides the pony, falls off and is badly hurt, he will be "yours" for as long as it takes to sue the pants off you!

In my view, this is a scam of some osrt waiting to happen, and my gut feel is that it invoves the child taking a tumble off the pony and you being sued. Take the good advice regarding establishing ownership from the other posters here, and do NOT let that child onto the pony until a) ownership is sorted out and b) the parents show you a copy of their own personal accident insurance.

 

[LuckyLaneRider]

trundle - gosh, that hadn't even crossed my mind! Thank god you mentioned it, i wouldn't of ever thought of them sueing me but it entirely makes sense.

 

[trundle]

You don't need a nasty cynical mind round here- there is always someone willing to share theirs!!!

I really hope you get this all sorted out, though. Best of luck to you.

Oh, and apologies for atrocious spelling in my first post!

 

[LuckyLaneRider]

cinamontoast - is it really better proof with livery bills? If so that puts me in a better position, thank god. & If they do somehow end up taking him back (After a long fight from me!) then i will definetly be charging them costs, particularly that expensive vets fee. I will definetly let you know the outcome of what happens.

FranSurrey - If it gets any further my yard owner will be involved, don't worry i'll make sure of it! & not only that but my whole yard will probably back me up, they are very good friends of mine, i can certainly count on them all thankfully.

R2R - Paperwork is a must now, i'm learning that lesson fast!

 

[Quartz]

I think it sounds like now you have done the hard work they possibly want him back as he is now a good pony to ride. I would move him asap, also a bit sneaky but would say if they ask you had to move him as he was not a calm pony etc and was not good for youngsters to ride. You are trying to work on this. You basically want them to think he is the same pony they left. Very naughty I know. Then when they loose interest or as soon as you can without looking suspicious yourself ask for change of ownership. You may all think I'm crazy for that suggestion sorry!!!

 

[spaniel]

I dont wish to be the voice of doom on this one but you dont own the pony.

You have a verbal comment made some time ago and nothing on paper, no receipt, no contract - nothing.

Why are you waiting until tuesday? Get on the phone NOW and talk to the owners about where you stand.

I certainly would NOT get into telling lies, hiding or moving the pony....you are creating a potential nightmare for yourself.

 

[thatsmygirl]

To put it bluntly I think you may learn from your mistake here. You really should off got it down on paper and paid £1 at least just to sercure the sale. Sounds to me like you may off broken and ridden a pony on which may get taken away from you now you have done the donkey work for free. So hope I'm wrong and all works out ok

 

[blitznbobs]

Simple

Invoice.

2 years full livery at £120 per week. = 12,480
Wormer every 8 weeks (or whatever)= 120
Shoes/farrier every x weeks = 600
Vaccinations / teeth = 200
Exercising x times a week
etc etc

Invoice total = A darn sight more than the pony is worth

Show them this, if they try to take the pony back but tell them if they *HAD* given you the pony then they wouldn't owe any of it would they? You were looking after it in the understanding that the pony was yours - if it wasn't then you want re embursing for your time and effort.

HTH

Blitz

 

[Archiesmummy]

OMG, what a worrying time for you, I feel so sorry for you. If it was me I just couldn't wait until Tuesday. I would go see them right now and say what is on your mind. Ask them where you stand, did they give the pony to you or not? Let them know you are upset and worried. Hear what they have got to say and them tell them the costs you have incurred getting pony to where it is. I fear they will throw in your face you have had a free pony to look after so be prepared with an answer.

As I see it, and I am probably wrong, if no money has changed hands, no contract was made or no paperwork signed the pony is technically still there's. I put in lots of work on someones horse, backed and broken to ride, hacking out nicely, paid bills and then it was sold without warning. OK, I didnt move it but he was as good as mine in my eyes.

Oh, and I wouldn't be moving the pony either. Why would you? It could be deemed as stolen whilst on loan. Also, it will get their backs up when quite possibly this situation can be sorted out amicably.

Please, please let us know the outcome and keeping my fingers crossed the outcome will be in your favour x

 

[outandabout]

Do you have BHS membership? If so, I strongly recommend you call their legal helpline! Contracts, whether verbal or otherwise, require valid consideration and from the facts as you state them, this seems questionable. Contract is not my particular area of law, so do check where you stand before you deal with the owner!

 

[charlimouse]

What sort of condition was the pony in when you took him on? I only ask as I have been in a very similar situation to you!

A few years ago, I took on a ex racehorse from a friend of a friend. The owner had been unable to catch him for 2 years, therefore she told me that if I could catch him I could have him. I managed to catch him and take him home, took his rug off (which he had been wearing for 2 years!) to find him skin and bones underneath and completly bald!!! His feet were also in a shocking state. I had the vet out who was amazed at how poor the horse was, but due to the fact the horse had now been given to me and was going to get the care he needed my vet and I decided not to persue the case any further.

6 months later I had a lovely horse, he went double clear round his first ODE and was doing well at local unaffilliated level. He wasn't going to make the event horse I wanted, so I put him up for sale as a riding club horse. As soon as the advert went up I had a call from him old owners (who I had had no contact with since the day I picked him up) saying he was their horse and they wanted him back. I immediatly moved him up the road to a different yard, so when the owners turned up to collect him (within 30mins of the phone call) he was not there. I then got a letter for a solicitor telling me I was being taken to court for horse theft. Luckily I still had the original text messages from the old owner saying the horse was free to whoever could catch him. I then also produced the photos and got the vet to give a full report on the horse's condition upon arrival with me, and his condition now.

Not surprisingly no further action was towards me, and I never heard anything from the old owner again. The horse was sold to a lovely home, they have had him 4 years now and I still get regular updates and photos of him.

My point is, that you are not the first, nor will you be the last to be in this situation. You have learnt your lesson, so there is no point anybody saying "you should have had a contract"! Any evidence you can get from your vet that you are the primary carer/bill payer is a useful thing to have. If your vet saw your pony was in poor condition when you got him your vet may be able to give a statement saying you rescued the pony. If you are a BHS member call the legal helpline (that is what I did!).

 

[FestiveBoomBoom]

[QUOTE EAST KENT - I have seriously considered giving him oats etc! The child has barely ever ridden & is a skinny 4 foot something who would have no chance of holding him back!![/QUOTE]

Might be an idea to let her ride afterall! The cheek of some people never ceases to amaze me. I was under the impression that a verbal contract stands and if it came to it, you can prove how much you have spent over the past yr on livery, vets, schooling, time etc etc! I would get the passport in your name asap and remind them of the fact that they wanted nothing to do with him and don't have the right to just turn up out of the blue expecting to ride or to retain ownership of the pony! I don't think they have a leg to stand on.

Good luck

 

[baymareb]

1. Do not let the child ride on Tuesday. That could be seen as an admission that you see the pony as belonging to them.

2. Do compile all your documents, receipts, etc.

3. Do call these people and ask them outright what gives. One way or another, this needs to be sorted out.

4. Do not EVER enter into an agreement without putting it in writing, no matter who you're dealing with. It simplifies things so much.

Good luck.

 

[Tinypony]

And... speak to your YO this evening, or tomorrow at the latest and tell them what is happening. Make sure that the YO knows that these ex-owners have no right to visit the yard and handle the pony in your absence. You could do that while you're asking the YO to produce a receipt for all the livery costs, ready to pass on to the ex-owners.
I agree with the others. On no account allow the daughter to ride.

 

[Groom42]

There is no "horse theft" here. A civil dispute over ownership is what it could possibly become. I think you need to establish their views and intentions as a matter of urgency. Do not, under any circumstances, give lock codes. (Actually, they are not yours to give, but the yard owner's). Without being insulting, you sound quite young, so I would strongly suggest you have a supportive, older ( large, if possible!) friend with you in all your dealings. If it's by phone, have it on speaker. It's all about covering yourself, and documenting things, which, with livery bills etc, you have done. I don't wish to scaremonger, but I think, if possible, it would be wise to keep pony close to yard/stabled over the weekend. Just in case. Once you have established their views/intentions, it may well be necessary to move the pony temporarily to an undisclosed location. Certainly until any outstanding bills for your time/expertise/livery etc have been settled. This is quite legitimate, and is caledl exercising a "legal lien". Do not let the pony leave until you have been reimbursed, or pony signed over in lieu. I only wish someone had told me about legal liens some months ago.
Also......don't let child ride it.

 

[fireflymac]

There is no "horse theft" here. A civil dispute over ownership is what it could possibly become. I think you need to establish their views and intentions as a matter of urgency. Do not, under any circumstances, give lock codes. (Actually, they are not yours to give, but the yard owner's). Without being insulting, you sound quite young, so I would strongly suggest you have a supportive, older ( large, if possible!) friend with you in all your dealings. If it's by phone, have it on speaker. It's all about covering yourself, and documenting things, which, with livery bills etc, you have done. I don't wish to scaremonger, but I think, if possible, it would be wise to keep pony close to yard/stabled over the weekend. Just in case. Once you have established their views/intentions, it may well be necessary to move the pony temporarily to an undisclosed location. Certainly until any outstanding bills for your time/expertise/livery etc have been settled. This is quite legitimate, and is caledl exercising a "legal lien". Do not let the pony leave until you have been reimbursed, or pony signed over in lieu. I only wish someone had told me about legal liens some months ago.
Also......don't let child ride it.

Excellent advice. I agree with all of this. Do let us know what happens.

 

[Holly Hocks]

If they did want him back, give them a bill first for breaking, schooling with all vets farrier livery fees etc, might put them off!!! They can't expect anyone to do all that for nothing surely.

I was reading through, thinking exactly the same - for the length of time you have had the pony, the bill for breaking, schooling and livery should exceed the horse's cost, so therefore you should take the pony as payment....it sounds like an awful situation for you as you obviously think a lot of this pony. Hope you get it sorted. Let us know what happens.

 

[Racergirl]

I was reading through, thinking exactly the same - for the length of time you have had the pony, the bill for breaking, schooling and livery should exceed the horse's cost, so therefore you should take the pony as payment....it sounds like an awful situation for you as you obviously think a lot of this pony. Hope you get it sorted. Let us know what happens.

and dont undercharge for your services

agree with the others - make darn sure where you stand before you let them ride the pony again - and be prepared to call their bluff if needsbe. as long as you have documents for all your livery costs/vets costs/insurance etc, you are well within your rights to want that paid before you hand him over (if thats the way it goes - dont accept a cheque either - anyone can write a cheque fo rthat much - not many can honour it !! )

please keep us updated - and very very good luck xx

 

[LuckyLaneRider]

Hi Everyone,
Thank you so so much for all replies - i am really pleased i have so many people backing me & giving great advice, you all are helping a lot!

I phoned the people last night to ask for legal proof/something in writing, they did not say much but did say they wan't to be the owners & i apparently now have the pony on 'full loan', they said we can discuss it when we meet tomorrow. I am not sure wether to try for ownership of the pony, as to be quite honest they just wanted rid of him when i was given him & the 'loan' word was never mentioned (but neither was the 'own' word? It was just take him! & i stupidly asked no questions..)

So do i try for ownership or just be happy with a loan & write up my contract today?

 

[martlin]

I would definitely establish the ownership as yours.
You have spent time and money bringing the pony on, took complete responsibility for him, haven't heard much from the 'owners' and now suddenly, the summer is here, the pony looks and behaves good and they want him back! I say no way!

 

[LuckyLaneRider]

Can't believe what I'm about to write but here goes...
His previous owners have stolen the pony & with no proof of clear ownership on either side the police will not get involved. We can't take him back ourselves using force as our safety will be severely risked.
All in all i now have no pony & my best friend has gone for ever.

 

[Cedars]

I'm sorry to hear this. Let it be a lesson to everyone that you NEED contracts. Verbal isn't good enough.

I would consider ringing them and trying to come to an arrangement. x

 

[Rose Folly]

Was reading your story and the responses with appalled interest - came to the last page and read your latest.
Someone advised you to seek legal advice - DO IT NOW if you haven't already. If you can'tafford a lawyer try the Citizens' Advice Bureau. And get the police involved and anyone else. The old saying "possession is nine-tenths of the law" is now working against you. Good luck - and don't give up!

 

[Dolcé]

Argue that there isnt a question over ownership, he is yours and they have stolen him, make the police get involved? How did they get him off the yard?

 

[Luci07]

when you speak to CAB - ask them if you could send a bill for all the costs incurred? and threaten local small court (don't believe it costs much to do this).

But I am really sorry this had such an unhappy episode at this point. I really hope it turns out well for you and you get the outcome you desire.

 

[niagaraduval]

Bloody hell!
If they hassle you for the pony back and threaten you with the police I would do this:
If that's what they are planning - to take the pony back, and claim it as theirs, I would count up how much you have spent on the pony, livery, vet, shoes, tack EVERYTHING and send them the bill saying that after all it's their pony and they owe you the money.
They will run a mile when they see how much money they owe you!
Wow! What a bunch of snide b*****ds! I'd have told them to get lost!

 

[Vicki_Krystal]

Im so sorry for you losing the pony.

You were told when u first posted to move the pony - For this reason.

Im sorry it has come to this - Get legal advice NOW.
If you do nothing, you WILL lose the pony.

 

[SusieT]

sorry I actually think they are in the right legally wise. They said 'take him' and you failed to establish if it was loan or own-sounds to me like they may actually have meant take him out of our hair until the kid is grown up enough to ride him (so now?).
Sorry but I think you were a bit naive here!

 

[Cedars]

I agree that you dont actually own the pony. Which is why you need to try and come to some arrangement with them. But you DONT own the pony.

 

[LuckyLaneRider]

Was reading your story and the responses with appalled interest - came to the last page and read your latest.
Someone advised you to seek legal advice - DO IT NOW if you haven't already. If you can'tafford a lawyer try the Citizens' Advice Bureau. And get the police involved and anyone else. The old saying "possession is nine-tenths of the law" is now working against you. Good luck - and don't give up!

Got legal advice & according to them legally there is nothing the police can do :/