Serious advice needed please; Sticky situation!

[Dolcé]

Then I suppose it now depends on how far you want to take it and whether you can afford to involve a solicitor. I would look at the advice you have been given on charging them for the breaking and schooling livery that the horse has been on for the amount of time you have had him. You could get YO, farrier and vet to confirm how much money he has cost you plus your time, feed etc. I think this is your only option (unless you think you may be able to come to an agreement with them) If they were presented with a bill for more than the horse is worth, perhaps in a solicitors letter to make it more real, they may decide the pony is not worth the hassle and send him back. If they dont have clear proof of ownership then court action just may work if you can find the money.

You have a choice here, you can accept and be miserable about it or you can fight for him, if you fight and lose then at least you will know that you did everything you could.

 

[dibbin]

What an awful thing to happen for you and your pony I'd echo what a lot of people had said - get legal advice, not just about where you stand with regards to ownership, but also if you have any grounds to claim back all the costs you've incurred while looking after "their" pony. Produce vets' bills, livery receipts, anything you've got. You may find (as some people have said), they'll get fed up with you hassling them for the money and may give you the pony in lieu of payment when they inevitably get fed up of him.

The problem is, despite the common misconception, possession is NOT nine-tenths of the law - ownership is.

Sorry, pretty useless advice, but I do Scots law rather than English, unfortunately.. Keep us updated with how you're getting on xxx

 

[Tinseltoes]

Oh no sorry sorry you lost your pony.It sounds like they planned this all along. Id fight it AND MAKE SURE YOU SEND THEM ALL THE BILLS (preferably thru a solicitor) then they know your not going to let it go.Seriously now!!!!

GET THE SOLICITOR TO SEND THE BILLS TO THEM. It might make them think twice!!! Especially if they think theyre going to end up in court.

Whose got the passport????

 

[Groom42]

Got legal advice & according to them legally there is nothing the police can do :/

The police will not get involved in this as it stands. It is not a criminal matter, but a civil dispute over ownership. This is why you need advice from a solicitor, not a policeman. The police will only become involved if criminal offences - Assault, Breach of the Peace, Public Order etc - occur. You haven't said how they actually managed to remove the pony? I am sorry you were unable to move him temporarily, I had a horrible feeling this would be the outcome. Small claims can be started online for £30. Good luck, and get to a solicitor as soon as you can.

 

[Natch]

deleted because I didn't read the whole thread.

 

[JanetGeorge]

I shouldn't have to buy a pony that was, & is, technically mine, but i'm prepared it might come down to it. I will put up a good fight for him but at the end of the day my chances don't look good if they do want him back.

Wrong! Your chances of keeping him are VERY good - as long as you hang onto him! A friend was in an almost identical situation - two years down the line former owners demanded she py £x for him - she told them where to go! They took her to Court (Small Claims) and lost!

I was also in very similar situation - in-foal mare that owners didn'twant and gave to me. Once nice foal safely born, they changed their minds. I told them where to go, got lawyer's letter - told him where to go. They tried to steal mare and foal (by this time a yearling) back when yard briefly unattended - and failed. Then tried to use police - police wouldn't play! Finally itwent to Court (again, Small Claims so no lawyers and minimal cost) and I won!

Judges are pretty sensible people! You can prove you've been caringfor the horse, paying all its bills etc etc. Even in the absence of paperwork, the attitude of the Judges in both these cases was that people wouldn'tcare for horse and pay all its bills if they didn't 'own' it! The CRITICAL thing- though - is to keep possession so don't let them near it again and move it if you have the slightest suspicion they might try to take it!

ETA Oops - just read on and realised you'd lost him already. Your only option now is to file a case against them for return of the pony or payment of costs for his keep/training/vet's bills etc.

 

[Chestnuttymare]

you haven't lost him yet!!
Do the invoice thing and have it ready to spring on them. Tell them if they want him back, then you want reimburses for everything as you would not have done all that for a pony you didn't own.
Do not allow the child to ride, you are paying for the pony, livery etc and they have no right to be there. same applies to the padlocks etc. give tehm nothing.
Also tell them that the kid has no insurance to ride him.
If they get arsey, bluff them with the threat of the police and that you know that they stole him in the first place. I reckon that will be enough alone to send them packing.
good luck, hope it works out ok for you and the pony. I think it is obvious where he will be better off.

 

[martlin]

you haven't lost him yet!!
Do the invoice thing and have it ready to spring on them. Tell them if they want him back, then you want reimburses for everything as you would not have done all that for a pony you didn't own.
Do not allow the child to ride, you are paying for the pony, livery etc and they have no right to be there. same applies to the padlocks etc. give tehm nothing.
Also tell them that the kid has no insurance to ride him.
If they get arsey, bluff them with the threat of the police and that you know that they stole him in the first place. I reckon that will be enough alone to send them packing.
good luck, hope it works out ok for you and the pony. I think it is obvious where he will be better off.

I think what she meant is that the ''owners'' have stolen the pony from her - as in she hasn't got him any more.

 

[thatsmygirl]

I can't believe they have taken the pony back.
Seriously if it was me I would be sending your bills stright away and put up a dam good fight. Don't give in they are taking the p*ss out off you so stand up for yourself babe and fight for YOUR PONY. X keep us posted.

 

[jrp204]

It is such a shame that there was no paperwork, we should all learn from this as trust is worth nothing. The trouble is on here we often have cases such as this and from the other side where owners have loaned out horses and the loanees claim ownership (i am not saying this is the case here). All this can be generally avoided with a downloaded form from the bhs or a receipt, so easy, so why are we often so lax with it.
Please OP don't think i'm getting at you, i feel for you and hope you get it sorted, it is a rubbish situation and one alot of people will learn from.

 

[Ranyhyn]

I would have thought if you have no bill of sale, you have no case. However, don't make it easy for them - you had a gentlemans agreement and you have incurred huge costs which you can argue you wouldnt have paid, had you not thought the pony was yours.

However, couldn't you arrange something amicably with them? Perhaps remind them they gave him to you but if their little-un would like to come and ride and help thats fine? I remember being a pony-less nipper....

 

[brighteyes]

Deleted

 

[jrp204]

Brighteyes, it appears they already have taken the pony.

 

[Ranyhyn]

Oh dear

Just goes to show how uncouth some people can be. You know what, I'd leave them to it, you can't educate pork and someone who steals a pony without even sitting down to have a civil talk, doesn't warrant any more worry.

You deserve a nice owner/loaner who treats you with the respect you deserve, not this. And should this ever happen again, get it all signed on paper - to protect youself!

 

[scattyarab]

I have no contract saying i am loaning but neither do i have any proof of ownership, i would change the ownership right now, i have the passport ready but just don't know where i stand legally if that would seem wrong?
I have a record of my weekly livery bills for about the last 3 months & vets bills & insurance documents since last year, that could possibly work?

IF and i said IF it is they want the pony back i`d be inclined to mention that if the pony was never yours i would mention the outstanding livery bills vets fees anything else financial and the fact the pony is now worth more since you have put in all the hard work.Itemise everything in money terms that they possibly owe you.They just might not seem it such a good idea they have the animal back as it may cost them.

 

[Tinypony]

They have taken the pony now.

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

You have no bill of sale & you also have no loan agreement......this was your original problem.......now try & turn that to your advantage.

If you don't own the pony & obviously you don't (forget any verbal agreement as they are of little value) & never you have had the pony on loan then you must have been looking after the pony & caring for it on behalf of the owners. If this is the case then the owners are responsible for all bills incurred by you for the pony whilst he was in your care?

I would prepare a bill for all the money you have spent on liveruy, feed, hay etc. Additionally bill them for breaking & schooling. Bill them for tack & rugs. Get your farrier to do bills for trims & shoes & also hit them with the bills from the vets for treatment. Bill them for worming etc....infact bill them for everything. Don't approach them by yourself go through a solicitor. Hopefully they will realise that this will end up costing them loads of money, infact more than the pony is actually worth & hopefully with some negociation all these bills could evaporate if the pony was returned & signed over to you............ just a thought?

 

[brighteyes]

Brighteyes, it appears they already have taken the pony.

Yes, it's why I deleted the post, having read the replies further down. Thanks, though! What a sorry mess.

 

[brighteyes]

You need to act FAST. How old are you, exactly?

 

[jrp204]

OK, being devils advocat.....if the owners thought they were loaning the pony, the fact that the loanee has paid livery etc for however long would not be their concern and i can't see that the loanee would be entitled to anything back. Obviously any tack, rugs etc would still belong to the loanee.
BUT. Personally I would send a bill to them in the hope they send the pony back and in the mean time get some advice from the CAB or BHS.

Oh!! for that bit of paper.......

 

[Tinseltoes]

SEND ALL BILL TO THEM THRU A SOLICITOR.grrrrr They did a nasty trick on you .so only option in my book is REVENGE TIME!!!!!


If you send ALL the bill THRU A SOLICITOR they will know you mean buisiness and think twice!!!

 

[the watcher]

SEND ALL BILL TO THEM THRU A SOLICITOR.grrrrr They did a nasty trick on you .so only option in my book is REVENGE TIME!!!!!


If you send ALL the bill THRU A SOLICITOR they will know you mean buisiness and think twice!!!

To engage a solicitor costs money.
To undertake a small claim in the County Court may not be financially demanding but does require either a solicitor or other advisor or claimant well versed in providing evidence bundles who knows their way around the procedure so as not to fall foul of disclosure and timeliness loopholes - this requires time and effort and will not result in the pony being returned.

Neither course has a guaranteed outcome.

My advice is to learn from it and let it go - you won't take a horse without paperwork again.

 

[Renvers]

Sorry to hear your situation.

If you can I would speak to a solicitor/BHS Helpline or CAB advisor to get the full picture and what your options are and take their advice.

You may find that this is one to chalk up to experience and will certainly give those of us who have read your story a lesson in getting things in writing.

I would certainly look into out of pocket expenses - particulalry any livery fees you have to pay for the horse leaving before the notice period is up - at the least.

I wish you the best of luck if you decide to take action and try to get him back or if you decide that you had a great time with this pony but its over; because whilst you are as good as your word others are not.

 

[ecarylloh]

How awful for you. I'm so sorry.

I would suggest trying to get them to pay for the bills etc using a solicitor - surely one of these no win no fee people would help? Or do you gave any lawyer friends?

As much as anything, it worries me that these people are getting away with doing this. If they're wheeler dealer types (and it sounds like they are) then they may think this is a great little extra branch to their business and do the same thing to other unsuspecting horse lovers - what's the betting that little pony will be on the market in a few weeks time and make them a tidy profit considering they haven't had to pay a thing for it in the last two years? If they think they can get away with doing this then they'll do it again...

 

[applecart14]

A clear case of always getting things down in writing. A verbal agreement over the phone is no good to you now. If someone says you can have something of value, always get a contract drawn up as the law will be on their side if they change their mind in the future and everything you agreed was on a verbal basis only.

 

[Cedars]

Was thinking about this last night. You have no right to send them the bills, as you were technically (ignoring the conversation where they said take him) loaning him, and therefore would be responsible for all of the livery, vets, etc.

I'm really sorry, but it looks like you were loaning him, they have asked for the pony back and have "ended" the loan.

I would grieve, and move on. Learn from it. Sorry =[

 

[jaypeebee]

I read that the pony has now been taken back by the owners so there is not a lot you can do unless you offer to buy the pony. Some of the information given to you is not correct. Livery bills do not, and never have, proved ownership of a horse. A bill of sale or receipt proves that. You could try to invoice them for board and training but if in their eyes the pony was only loaned to you then you have no chance of getting any money out of them unless you have a something in writing stating that you had the pony for training. The pony legally belongs to them and you have learned a harsh lesson. Never do business without having something signed and in writing.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I'm so sorry to hear this: I would seriously send them a massive bill for services rendered and see what happens.

Do you know where they took him?

 

[1987]

In the passport are they actually the registered owner? I know my horse's last owner wasn't 'officially' registered, they just wrote their name in the passport. If I was you I would ring the passport agency to check the registered owner as if it's someone before them then you may have more of a case for you to become the 'new' owner.

 

[siennamum]

I doubt the Op wil be back, this sounds rather a fait accompli. BUT I wonder also about the passport issue. If Op had the horse long enough for vaccinations etc then I presume she also had the passport..... In which case couldn't she actually claim the horse is hers.