Session 16.....

[Mongoose11]

GS I see it so clearly because my mare has exactly the same issue, she is perfectly sound and it is only noticeable in walk at times. I continue her work and have been told that it will develop or disappear. My eyes are so drawn to it with Armas.

 

[milliepops]

I am pretty sure James has had to repeat many times in multiple threads that the horse has had treatment and is passed fit for work. He has also mentioned further treatment as well so I don't think it's anything that is being ignored.

^^ this, and also to me, the fact that it becomes much less apparent when the horse begins to work correctly (reappearing most clearly when he is especially tense) makes it a bit less of a worry. If he was hopping around on 3 legs even when loose and becoming through, then I'd agree - stop the work. But I don't believe that is the case

 

[Armas]

My feeling is when and if the horse is straighter it will either resolve or get worse at some point with the increased work , I have been down this exact road myself it's a long tale but as the horse straightened with the training and lot of physio the funny hind leg that I was worried about so much and sent had a fair bit of money trying to pin down an issue just resolved .
In the UK I would have a good physio working hard on this horse ,but James has said in the past you just can't get one in France like you can here.

I am waiting for a chiropractor to call me back. The one I wanted to use is about to have a baby !

 

[Goldenstar]

^^ this, and also to me, the fact that it becomes much less apparent when the horse begins to work correctly (reappearing most clearly when he is especially tense) makes it a bit less of a worry. If he was hopping around on 3 legs even when loose and becoming through, then I'd agree - stop the work. But I don't believe that is the case

I agree with this too if I had stopped work with mine it would never have resolved .

 

[Armas]

Have you seen the videos of him running jumping bucking etc not much sign of discomfort in those videos.

 

[Spring Feather]

And yet another 'over bent' post. Do you make a point of posting 'above the bit', 'poking nose', 'falling in on left rein' on other schooling threads?

As for lame behind, are you a vet?

Moomin, almost all of us can see the horse is not sound. Most of us have commented about it on many of the other previous posts. Most of us no longer mention it because James' vet has 'cleared' the horse, whatever that means.

Nothing Rosita has said is incorrect from what many of us see. The horse is above and/or behind the bit, overbent and he is very often on the forehand. Rosita may not have used choice words to put her comments forward however it's her opinion to which she is entitled to airing. Just as you are entitled to do too. Oh and there is absolutely nothing wrong at all with any posters saying they wouldn't allow this rider on their horses, perfectly valid comments, just as valid as the others who give running commentaries of what they think the rider is doing and what they think the horse is doing. I like you Moomin and enjoy your posts however you are not the overseer of what people can say and what they can't say on any of the threads that are posted on this forum.

Now back to the regularly scheduled programme :smile3:

 

[Moomin1]

Moomin, almost all of us can see the horse is not sound. Most of us have commented about it on many of the other previous posts. Most of us no longer mention it because James' vet has 'cleared' the horse, whatever that means.

Nothing Rosita has said is incorrect from what many of us see. The horse is above and/or behind the bit, overbent and he is very often on the forehand. Rosita may not have used choice words to put her comments forward however it's her opinion to which she is entitled to airing. Just as you are entitled to do too. Oh and there is absolutely nothing wrong at all with any posters saying they wouldn't allow this rider on their horses, perfectly valid comments, just as valid as the others who give running commentaries of what they think the rider is doing and what they think the horse is doing. I like you Moomin and enjoy your posts however you are not the overseer of what people can say and what they can't say on any of the threads that are posted on this forum.

Now back to the regularly scheduled programme :smile3:

I don't recall ever saying what people can and can't post on this forum. I have voiced my opinions as to what posts I find silly and pointless, and unknowledgeable. A lot like many other posters on this thread, nevermind the entire forum!

However, with regard the 'lameness' - I admit, I haven't followed Armas' progress, and have only watched a very minimal amount of footage from different posts. I don't see any major unsoundness in this thread's video. I do think that the problem with forums is that people jump to so many different conclusions/assumptions/opinions/diagnoses/prognoses, that I for one am not about to get swallowed up in that, and I will take FIRST hand information about the horse's ability to work in most instances. OP has stated this horse is certified fit to work by a vet. I don't personally see any glaring causes of suffering or lameness. That's not to say of course he hasn't got underlying issues, but I don't see anything making this horse physically in pain during this work.

 

[Fellewell]

I am waiting for a chiropractor to call me back. The one I wanted to use is about to have a baby !

I'm so glad you've got a chiro booked. I wouldn't use draw reins on him, especially if it's to lower his head for the piaffe. Use a wall for straightness and let him flex naturally.

 

[_GG_]

I'm so glad you've got a chiro booked. I wouldn't use draw reins on him, especially if it's to lower his head for the piaffe. Use a wall and let him flex naturally.

I can't understand why anyone would want to lower the head for a movement in which the horse should be more uphill than pretty much all of the others? But no...she isn't going to try them for that. She is trying them to stop him falling out through the right shoulder. If he reacts by tucking in, she will take them off.

 

[milliepops]

I do think that the problem with forums is that people jump to so many different conclusions/assumptions/opinions/diagnoses/prognoses, that I for one am not about to get swallowed up in that, and I will take FIRST hand information about the horse's ability to work in most instances.

I think it's human nature to do that - rightly or wrongly - and I can also understand why people react the way they do sometimes by posting something almost instinctive, which then reads quite rude to another person. It's a little frustrating at times on these threads though because that's usually how they end up being temporarily de-railed :wink3:

I think what you are saying, or at least what I try to do is to take a step back, have a think and cogitate on what you've seen, and then post your thoughts with a measured tone

Might still end up posting essentially the same stuff but just dressed up a little more politely :wink3: or possibly the extra couple of minutes raises a few questions which would be relevant, or even change the way you initially saw it.. IMO that keeps the threads interesting and useful, rather than descending into bun fights.

But then, it ends up taking me ages to actually post *anything* half of the time because I don't want to fan the flames... If everyone was like me it would be a terribly polite, but terribly SLOW forum :redface3: & probably a whole load less entertaining :biggrin3:

 

[AdorableAlice]

I know nothing about the breed, so this is probably utter rubbish. To my, inexperienced eye, the shape of the neck is wrong, the lump of muscle is very prominent in the middle of his neck and extending to his gullet, he does not seem to have any muscle in front of the wither or on his crest to actually enable him to lift his wither and forehand. His loin and quarters are weak. To me he appears 'locked' through his wither and shoulder, he hits the ground very hard in front for such a lightly built horse.

Does his conformation actually allow him to work properly. His gullet/jowl is closed so I would think, if pressed hard enough, his breathing could be compromised. He just looks an odd shape to me, but maybe he is a good example of the breed. No offence is meant by my comment, I just wonder if he is actually physically capable of doing what is being asked of him.

 

[_GG_]

Adorable Alice...in short, no...I don't think he has the correct or enough muscle tone for this work yet. Your points are all on the money but...in my experience of these horses, quite normal issues with some due to the training they have.

Cortez or Caol Ila will be more qualified than me to pass judgement on this though.

 

[PolarSkye]

"She reins back to help with his hind engagement." But that's not what I'm seeing . . . as he comes out of the rein back he is still on his forehand and behind the aid . . . I don't see him pushing off behind, I see him pulling himself forward with his forelegs. Am I the only one who is confused by this or have I got it all wrong?

P

 

[Leg_end]

Moomin, almost all of us can see the horse is not sound. Most of us have commented about it on many of the other previous posts. Most of us no longer mention it because James' vet has 'cleared' the horse, whatever that means.

I do wonder if this is the same vet that nearly drowned the horse with his advice.....!

Armas, I haven't commented previously but the horse is lame behind and I do feel you should get another opinion. The difference between his stance in this video and the long reining one is terrible to watch - he was far more relaxed and happy which, to me, mean you have to look at what changes and that is the saddle and the rider. Has he had his saddle checked?

 

[AmiRobertson]

I have been watching these threads with an interest I am however not qualified to give any comment. I am sorry if this has been asked before as the threads are quite difficult to keep up with. What is the goal and ambition for armas? And what's the rush? I assume James that this is your horse for life? And you are in it for the long game? I have a young horse myself and I see it as we have many many years ahead of us to perfect the goal for me right now is too enjoy her. Most of our school work is in walk (has been for 3months she has issues with her back and pedal bones) to build on balance and straightness and I allow her to dictate the pace with fairly low expectations at this point. My point is the moment i let go of my goals the more me and her started to enjoy each other.
A very wise lady said to me that the relationship with horses is about what you could be doing not what you should be doing.

As I said I am not qualified to comment on this and reading the comments from people who are has been a very interesting read but I do feel that armas's work is based around the belief of what he should be doing as opposed to what you could do together.

 

[PolarSkye]

I know nothing about the breed, so this is probably utter rubbish. To my, inexperienced eye, the shape of the neck is wrong, the lump of muscle is very prominent in the middle of his neck and extending to his gullet, he does not seem to have any muscle in front of the wither or on his crest to actually enable him to lift his wither and forehand. His loin and quarters are weak. To me he appears 'locked' through his wither and shoulder, he hits the ground very hard in front for such a lightly built horse.

Yes, he looks like Kal when we first bought him . . . underside of neck bulked up rather than topline and not much to speak of behind the saddle - possibly as a result of being worked fast, on the forehand and in draw reins . Watching the videos, I see an awful lot of repetition and not much work designed to build up his back end/lighten the forehand. Of course the videos are a moment (hour) in time and we don't see how Armas works when J hacks him, etc., but if he were mine, I'd be focusing on strengthening and fittening him overall and building up those quarters/strengthening his back/topline rather than half steps, etc. Hillwork in walk on a relatively long rein to get him to find his own balance and use those quarters, canter work, raised poles, some jumping and lots and lots of stretchy work. I'm not criticizing the rider herself - she seems knowledgeable enough and certainly knows how to ride . . . but I am confused by her approach - I feel as though she is asking him to do things he is just not built to do yet . . .

P

 

[twiggy2]

i see relaxed confusion from Armas most of the time (if that makes sense), he is thinking and asking questions (a lot) rather than with drawing his neck into his chest, he has moments of expression that a really nice to see. in this video he tries without fear of getting it wrong.

great session, I am not going to go in to what the trainer is and is not asking him to do and how she is asking, I would see this session as a break through, Armas is more forward, has moments where he is heading towards being off the forehand, his sweat patches say it all-sweat patches around the stifle show he is using his back end more (i guess he was sweaty between his legs too), less sweat patches at the front end for me indicate less stress sweating.

I had planned to write 'I like the trainers T-shirt' (love orange) and nothing else due to the bun fight before but fab session could not miss an oppurtunity to comment on that.

 

[Auslander]

He did have a break through with the double why what are you thinking. What did you make of todays session Puppetmaster

I seem to remember that he was more willing to take the contact forward in a double, and looked more solid and consistent from the outset. With security at the front end, he let go through the back, sat more and swung more. It was a lightbulb moment for him, and I wonder if it's worth trying it again.

I am on the fence about this session - there were good moments,and there were moments where I cringed a bit. I'm still not convinced by the bits where she sends him forward/allows him to tank off at high speed. I totally agree that he needs to go forward smartly when she asks, but I'd prefer to see a quick, sharp transition upwards within the pace, then a containment of the energy created. I suspect he doesn't feel as fast when she's on him, but presumably she's seen the videos? I'd also like to see her throwing questions at him - asking for forwardness, then popping in a circle, lateral movement, change of rein - something that will make him apply the brakes himself, which will be a more reliable way of channeling forward energy into upward energy than simply stopping him with the hand. He likes being challenged - his whole expression changes when he is asked to do something a bit more difficult. The passage type steps may not be perfect, but you can see him focusing and concentrating, and he's got the idea pretty quickly. I don't really mind that he's breaking into canter, because that indicates that he is using his back end a bit.
I don't thing she needs to shorten her reins necessarily, but I would like to see her hands more consistently up, forward and steady (not still!).He noticeably comes up in front when she is asking for bouncy steps, and I think its partly due to the position of her hands, which gives a more stable feel down the reins for him. It's very easy to fiddle with a horse like him - who is inconsistent in the contact he offers, but one of them needs to offer a degree of soft solidity down the rein.

And on a slight aside - if I see one more person comment about him not tracking up in the passage steps, I will beat my head against a brick wall until it explodes like a ripe tomato. People - go away and watch some dressage (Blue Hors Matinee a great example of a super forward, active, athletic dressage horse). It's just not physically possible for a horse to track up in high collection work such as passage and piaffe. Just saying...

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I've not commented at all on these threads until now and perhaps I shouldn't now. Firstly I can see James loves and is proud of his horse . I love watching Armas in his running free videos he looks proud and beautiful he does not come behind the bit and mostly he steps through although I can still see a weakness in right hind at times. The schooling videos I find uncomfortable watching and admit I haven't seen them all. BTW I don't expect a horse to be quite so pleased about doing some work He just looks like he is being drilled all the time never mind the methods and I can't see how a horse will give you anything when he doesn't appear to receive any reward.

If Armas' weakness is due to his SI injury then only work will strengthen it but as I recall all that happened was one injection then back into normal work. Having a horse with an SI injury myself I know the months of rehabilitation it took with specific types of exercise plus constant management since. SI horses often have foot imbalance problems and may also have kissing spine or close spinal processes - I don't recall this ever being investigated although I gave my advice at the time FWIW.

To me there is nothing more of a turn-off than forcing a horse to do something he constantly struggles with probably because of physical reasons - where is the pleasure in that?

 

[little_flea]

Just out of interest, all you people who are so outrageously critical - what level do you compete at/have brought horses on to?

I am not saying your opinions are not valid but I do think that unless you really really understand the stages, difficulties and pitfalls of re-schooling/producing dressage horses to a high level, perhaps it is better to be a bit more openminded to different training methods.

I won't comment as I show jump and have never trained a "proper" dressage horse to any reasonable level (my biggest achievement is intermediate eventing on ponies which hardly counts for real dressage), so I simply don't know enough and will thus keep my trap shut. Perhaps a few here could do with considering a similar approach?

Armas - I really hope you don't let these people get to you too much - people banging around at Prelim may not be able to understand what your trainer is trying to do (me included) so I would have faith and give it a chance. Wonderful horse.

 

[Auslander]

Not a direct response to SBTS - it was just chance that you commented on the thing that has been bothering me a bit!
Many people are saying they think he looks better/happier when he's being ridden in the garden by the young girl, or running loose. Sure - they are lovely videos, but it's really pretty irrelevant to the discussion. Who can genuinely put their hand up and say that their horse is exactly the same when being schooled on the flat, than it is being ridden in a leisure situation, or loose in the field - and more to the point, who actually wants their horse to demonstrate that they have absolutely no impact on ts way of going under training. I have a PSG horse, who is very good at his job (when he's sound), and he is a very different horse to ride in the school than he is to hack out. He doesn't have the natural advantage of great presence and movement - in fact, he looks like a common old hunter until you ask him to engage "dressage horse" mode . I love watching him playing in the field, and am very happy mooching about on a long rein out hacking, but I wouldn't be happy at all if he were to go in his natural frame when being schooled. He gets tense when schooling too - but he channels it into the expressive movement and stage presence that isn't natural to him - does that make him an unhappy, stressed horse? Nope!
Some on here might prefer the minimal impact approach, and that's fine, but equally, when an owner chooses to train a horse to work correctly ( and that will happen one day with this horse) - surely that's fine too?

Sure - Armas is not as relaxed in the school as he is at leisure, but that's pretty normal. He is being asked to work - the sort of work that requires a degree of muscular tension, and mental challenge. He's a clever horse, and gets wound up (possibly more by his penchant for thinking up ways to evade) and it's hard work for him physically, so he does have the odd wibble - but it's normal for a horse in training to have these moments.

 

[vieshot]

I'm not assessing it? I'm just pointing out the obvious as the OP seems to be slightly blind.

 

[jhoward]

Probably not a good thing to echo me! I haven't gone down too well on here

does anyone ever go down well on James??




*grin *

 

[Auslander]

I'm not assessing it? I'm just pointing out the obvious as the OP seems to be slightly blind.

Constructive!!

 

[_GG_]

does anyone ever go down well on James??




*grin *

:wink3: Did make me chuckle!!

 

[Qru]

This may have been asked before, and if it has then I apologize, but why does she ride with her hands nearly on her knees?

I only ask as I was once taught that this would encourage the horse to bring its head down into more of a correct outline - I have now changed trainers - and if this is the case, why would you use this technique on a horse that is BTV naturally?

This is just a curious question, not a dig at anyone

 

[Mongoose11]

Just out of interest, all you people who are so outrageously critical - what level do you compete at/have brought horses on to?

I am not saying your opinions are not valid but I do think that unless you really really understand the stages, difficulties and pitfalls of re-schooling/producing dressage horses to a high level, perhaps it is better to be a bit more openminded to different training methods.

I won't comment as I show jump and have never trained a "proper" dressage horse to any reasonable level (my biggest achievement is intermediate eventing on ponies which hardly counts for real dressage), so I simply don't know enough and will thus keep my trap shut. Perhaps a few here could do with considering a similar approach?

Armas - I really hope you don't let these people get to you too much - people banging around at Prelim may not be able to understand what your trainer is trying to do (me included) so I would have faith and give it a chance. Wonderful horse.

Why not have an opinion? Surely you're not a complete moron and so have something very relevant to add if you have years of horsey experience. A horse doesn't stop being the same horse when it is jumping as opposed to 'dressageing'. Very different disciplines requiring different approaches but all still involving a horse....

What makes you think that Armas is approaching a 'high level'? This horse isn't even ready for a prelim, as you can see, which makes those 'banging around at prelim' veritable experts

Oh and 'open minded' isn't the same thing as 'agreeing'. Why would you feel the need to encourage people who disagree with the methods to 'keep their trap shut'?

 

[Clava]

Why not have an opinion? Surely you're not a complete moron and so have something very relevant to add if you have years of horsey experience. A horse doesn't stop being the same horse when it is jumping as opposed to 'dressageing'. Very different disciplines requiring different approaches but all still involving a horse....

What makes you think that Armas is approaching a 'high level'? This horse isn't even ready for a prelim, as you can see, which makes those 'banging around at prelim' veritable experts

Oh and 'open minded' isn't the same thing as 'agreeing'. Why would you feel the need to encourage people who disagree with the methods to 'keep their trap shut'?

Good post.

 

[AmyMay]

Just out of interest, all you people who are so outrageously critical - what level do you compete at/have brought horses on to?

I am not saying your opinions are not valid but I do think that unless you really really understand the stages, difficulties and pitfalls of re-schooling/producing dressage horses to a high level, perhaps it is better to be a bit more openminded to different training methods.

I won't comment as I show jump and have never trained a "proper" dressage horse to any reasonable level (my biggest achievement is intermediate eventing on ponies which hardly counts for real dressage), so I simply don't know enough and will thus keep my trap shut. Perhaps a few here could do with considering a similar approach?

Armas - I really hope you don't let these people get to you too much - people banging around at Prelim may not be able to understand what your trainer is trying to do (me included) so I would have faith and give it a chance. Wonderful horse.

Well we had to wait quite some time for that one. But knew it would arrive eventually

 

[Caol Ila]

I thought the warm up looked quite good and if it were my horse, I would want to see more work in that trot -- transitions, lateral movement, etc. I can see the benefit of the elevated trot steps and several times when he came out of them, he was moving very well, but like I said in the last thread, I would be uncomfortable (again, if it were my horse) with the amount of time the trainer is spending on that movement and the amount of sustain she is asking of him, given his current muscle development. For me, the whole point of dressage is self-carriage, softness, and lightness. When I watch the video, it looks as if she is having to hold Armas up and push quite hard in order to maintain the elevated trot, which for me kind of misses the point.

When I am working with a horse (I am no Grand Prix rider, far from it, by the way, so take this with a salt block), I want to find the most comfortable frame for it to be soft and in self-carriage and I spend the majority of the session in that frame, doing transitions, lateral work, etc.. Where that is, of course, will depend on the horse's conformation, fitness, and level of education. I also spend some time asking the horse to stretch down (how far depends on how balanced it is) and a little bit of time asking it to lift the front end just a little bit more. I don't spend ages holding it in a frame that it finds difficult, as this defeats the whole goal of lightness and softness. Maybe that's what you have to do to ride upper levels, but to be honest, I doubt it.

I also think Armas has a better 'work ethic,' for lack of a better term, than my Shire cross and the assorted natives I am riding at the moment. I suspect a lot of horses of his breed do! If you drilled a difficult movement, like the trainer is doing, on my horse or my native trainees, they would just tune you out. So it forces you to be creative and playful in how you up the difficulty of a schooling session and the key thing is building up the horse's strength through stuff it can do well so when you ask him for the difficult movement, it's not *that* hard for him to do it. And then once you get it a couple times, move on to something easier. I sometimes get the feeling (and I might be crazy) that these types of horses are fantastic at looking out for themselves and their bodies (and this can be misconstrued as "lazy" and "stubborn" when in fact the horse has more sense than the rider and knows what she can and can't do) whereas some hot horses like Armas and some warmbloods, TBs, and Arabs I've met over the years will try absolutely *anything* for you. That extra bit of heart is nice, but you have to look out for them a bit more.

For horses like that, the question for me is, because they will let you push them hard, should you?