Session 16.....

[little_flea]

Why not have an opinion? Surely you're not a complete moron and so have something very relevant to add if you have years of horsey experience. A horse doesn't stop being the same horse when it is jumping as opposed to 'dressageing'. Very different disciplines requiring different approaches but all still involving a horse....

What makes you think that Armas is approaching a 'high level'? This horse isn't even ready for a prelim, as you can see, which makes those 'banging around at prelim' veritable experts

Oh and 'open minded' isn't the same thing as 'agreeing'. Why would you feel the need to encourage people who disagree with the methods to 'keep their trap shut'?

Because I see an owner who really, truly wants the best for his horse, has taken plenty of advice to find a trainer, has involved vets and done everything he can to make sure his horse is ok, the trainer is very experienced and has a plan - so quite frankly a bunch of armchair riders on a message board repeatedly telling him that his horse is lame, in pain, miserable, is being ruined, that he is cruel for letting this woman riding his horse yadda yadda - is not ok in my book.

Yes I do realise that it is an open message board but come on, people... There has of course been some very interesting, constructive and intelligent discussions too, but the rest of it... really.

And as far as experience goes - I would rather take advice and training from someone who has jumped at a high level than somebody who is competing British Novice. It DOES count for something.

Well we had to wait quite some time for that one. But knew it would arrive eventually

 

[JFTDWS]

Not a direct response to SBTS - it was just chance that you commented on the thing that has been bothering me a bit!
Many people are saying they think he looks better/happier when he's being ridden in the garden by the young girl, or running loose. Sure - they are lovely videos, but it's really pretty irrelevant to the discussion. Who can genuinely put their hand up and say that their horse is exactly the same when being schooled on the flat, than it is being ridden in a leisure situation, or loose in the field - and more to the point, who actually wants their horse to demonstrate that they have absolutely no impact on ts way of going under training. I have a PSG horse, who is very good at his job (when he's sound), and he is a very different horse to ride in the school than he is to hack out. He doesn't have the natural advantage of great presence and movement - in fact, he looks like a common old hunter until you ask him to engage "dressage horse" mode . I love watching him playing in the field, and am very happy mooching about on a long rein out hacking, but I wouldn't be happy at all if he were to go in his natural frame when being schooled. He gets tense when schooling too - but he channels it into the expressive movement and stage presence that isn't natural to him - does that make him an unhappy, stressed horse? Nope!
Some on here might prefer the minimal impact approach, and that's fine, but equally, when an owner chooses to train a horse to work correctly ( and that will happen one day with this horse) - surely that's fine too?

Sure - Armas is not as relaxed in the school as he is at leisure, but that's pretty normal. He is being asked to work - the sort of work that requires a degree of muscular tension, and mental challenge. He's a clever horse, and gets wound up (possibly more by his penchant for thinking up ways to evade) and it's hard work for him physically, so he does have the odd wibble - but it's normal for a horse in training to have these moments.

That's the most logical thing I've seen all day.

Mind you, it isn't even 10:30 yet, so there's plenty of time

 

[Goldenstar]

We tend to go down hill as the day progresses.

 

[_GG_]

Ok...have had another look at the video this morning.

Would this be how I approached helping this horse? No.

Do I think James is doing a disservice to his horse? No. Not necessarily.

Whilst I wouldn't approach things the way this trainer is, I cannot say that I am totally against anything she is doing with him. That is because I can see her reasons behind doing what she is doing.

I also like that this trainer is mixing it up and trying different things with Armas. I said in a previous post that what I like about this trainer is also what I don't like.

I talked a lot in earlier threads about wanting to see her listen to the horse more and it did start to happen more. The more she listened to Armas, the more saw improvements. I am starting to feel uncomfortable again in how she is listening to him. You can see on her face that she is maintaining an assessment of him throughout the work, but I feel that the assessment is of what is in front of her more than what is behind her.

She mentions at the end of the video that she has seen his knees up for the first time and is pleased with this. I have not been too concerned with breed or type before, but this is one time where the natural affinity of the breed and previous training really should be taken into account.

Armas has been trained in the Spanish walk and Iberians are generally very capable and have a natural affinity for the collected movements, with greater lift of the forearm. In a horse that had never done Spanish walk and was perhaps not as capable of lifting the forearm, seeing the knees would be a very good indication of correctness. If my TB was lifting the knees like that, there would be only one reason and that would be that she was truly sitting on her hind, enabling the lift at the front. With Armas, he is fully capable of and has in fact been trained to lift the forearms without any necessity for engagement.
The reason I bring this up is that I did see Armas lift in a Spanish walk manner in one of the last few videos. It was only brief and the trainer corrected it, but it was there and shows the horses ability to look into his own mind and search his repertoire for answers to the trainers questions. I love that he does this. It shows a keeness in him to perform.
Unfortunately, his natural ability and his own very clever little mind remembering previous exercises (Spanish walk) mean that he, IMHO is lifting the knees out of his perception of what the trainer is asking. I think her assessment that he is doing it through true engagement is simply optimism. Were she really listening to him with her whole body, she would feel that he was still lifted behind the saddle.

Does that mean I think this work is bad? No. Actually, I see that the baby collected steps are helping the horse find focus and he IS beginning to take a little more weight behind that he was when she first started this work. He is no longer so bouncy behind. I am also seeing more lift and lightness through his shoulders in this work now, compared to when it started. There are glimpses of real promise and they are coming along more often.

My only reason for pointing out the above is that my concern is that just "seeing the knees" gives a false impression of progress. Yes, there is progress, but it is not as pure as I think the trainer believes it to be.

Armas has simply found a half way point. He has used his brain and met the rider in the middle. She wanted lift and cadence, he mistook that initially and offered Spanish walk, trainer quickly let him know that was not what she was asking and so he understood. He thinks, "more than normal, but not that much...ok, so I'll lift the forearm, just not as much as when she corrected me". So, the trainer sees knees, but it isn't necessarily connected with what is happening behind.

That said, with a mind like his, providing the trainer does the right things, it won't be too long before he figures out the correct way of going.

His evasions are hilarious...I could watch this horse all day as I can practically hear his inner monologue thinking up new ways to not quite do what he knows is being asked of him.

I would like to see more off the track work in general, but not in the rein back. Many people have, IMO quite correctly pointed out that he does not sit or take the weight behind in the rein back, which is the general objective. He remains more or less equal in his weigh distribution and goes off slightly on the forehand. This isn't because rein back is a bad exercise for him, but because it is another example that I see that the rider is not listening very well to the horse behind her.
Evasion doesn't just come in the mouth. It can come anywhere. What I see in the rein back is that the horse is evading the exercise completely. I did not see one good, quality rein back. He is evading through stepping out rather than stepping back and under. He doesn't want to take the weight behind, so he is achieving the rein back and therefore making the rider happy by simply taking steps where he widens his hindlegs to allow room for his fronts to come back without the need to sit and round his back. The rider, not really aware of what is happening behind her is then sending him on, but no benefit is seen as the exercise was lost anyway.

I would like to see her only do the rein back against the fence until she can control Armas behind as well as in front. Just to help him stay straight and true. I also would like to see her slow it down just a tad, some if the rein backs were a little rushed.


Ok...that's that done...onto the forward work. A few have disliked the fact that she sends Armas quite forward out of the baby collected steps. I'll be totally honest, I think she is doing this as it is the lesser of two evils. This is somewhere that I do feel she is listening to him. It is his front end again that she is listening to, but she is listening. When she sends him forward into a steady working trot, he doesn't seek any contact and he begins to revert to dipping BTV. When she sends him on into a more forward trot, he does at least take the rein forward and maintains a nice carriage for more than a few strides at a time. I wouldn't want to see this all the time as it will come at the cost of any work to engage the hind, but as a release from the baby steps, I don't dislike it. It is a method, if nothing else to allow him to find a higher head carriage a natural place to be. A little subconscious retraining is going there and I will always take free improvements where I can get them

It's great to see her canter more at the beginning. I think I said it on early threads and I know I have said it by PM to James that his comfort work is his canter work. That I would like to see him warm up in walk and then go straight into canter. Canter work with a light contact, in a half seat and focussing on riding the corners will allow him to relax in his back, fire the engines up, get a forward thinking mind and also through corners, not bends, start listening to the leg a little more and bending around it as opposed to evading it which I am still seeing.

I am losing track of what I have and haven't covered now and no idea why I type such long responses but hey ho. I'll end on the proposed use of draw reins or running reins as I would call them in the manner described by the trainer.

James I think is expecting me to be horrified, in fact, I think most people that know my views on gadgets would expect me to be horrified, but the truth is, I am not.

I can be honest and say that I wouldn't personally turn to them, but I am not going to sit here and blast this trainer for going there. She has said clearly that if they create more closing in the neck, that she will bin them, but that she is wanting to use them to try and correct the falling out through the right shoulder. I don't think for a second that she is going to use them in force or use them incorrectly as so many other idiots do. Truth is, no matter how much I personally don't like them, I have used them myself for safety when I first started hacking fly out and the safety came from their ability to help keep her straight when she had stupid moments and I only used them a few times and they have been gathering dust since. I am no hypocrite, I believe that in the right hands with the right intentions and for the right reasons that they can help overcome certain issues.

So...I am not going to moan about her using them for the reason she states. She is simply trying to find new ways to overcome issues. better than rigidly sticking to one failing plan.

Personally, I don't think he needs them. I think he needs to be understood. I think the shoulder evasion comes from his lack of willing and ability to work correctly behind at the moment. He is evading correct work behind on that rein by simply falling out through the shoulder. It speaks volumes about what needs working on.

I always find it 100 times more beneficial to treat the cause and not the symptom. The symptom is the shoulder falling out. When that is treated, I would expect the next evasion to be him starting to lean (motorbike) around the corners instead...so that will need treating. When that is treated, he may go back to falling out through the shoulder or he may begin to trail to the outside behind...another symptom to treat.

Instead, I would go straight to the cause. I would deal with that, no matter how long it took and when the cause is gone, there will be no symptoms to treat.

But, the trainer is doing what she is doing and it is not making the horse unhappy so I won't blast her for it.

I have more to say, but I have probably said too much already :wink3:

 

[fankino04]

Sorry but I am still seeing a rider who is rushing to achieve a "pretty" outline without taking the time and work to get it right and have a correct outline. I dont know if this is because she is trying to keep or build a reputation as a rider who gets results, if this is the case it will obviously only work on people who dont look past a pretty outline to really see what is going on, or if she feels pushed to get quick results by James, either way I dont think its good for the horse yet despite so many people saying the same thing James still seems happy to believe everything she tells him.

 

[charlie76]

Just out of interest, all you people who are so outrageously critical - what level do you compete at/have brought horses on to?

I am not saying your opinions are not valid but I do think that unless you really really understand the stages, difficulties and pitfalls of re-schooling/producing dressage horses to a high level, perhaps it is better to be a bit more openminded to different training methods.

I won't comment as I show jump and have never trained a "proper" dressage horse to any reasonable level (my biggest achievement is intermediate eventing on ponies which hardly counts for real dressage), so I simply don't know enough and will thus keep my trap shut. Perhaps a few here could do with considering a similar approach?

Armas - I really hope you don't let these people get to you too much - people banging around at Prelim may not be able to understand what your trainer is trying to do (me included) so I would have faith and give it a chance. Wonderful horse.

If this is aimed at then I am happy to answer. I have five horses of my own. Two event horses, one was competing at 1* until he was injured and a younger horse who is at 100 level at the moment withdressage scores in the twenties. The other two are dressage horses, one is competing medium and schooling advanced medium. The other, the horse who had contact issues is competing at advanced medium and schooling at advanced. He has just started tempi changes.
I have produced , alongside a friend, a horse that was bought for less than a thousand pounds, to Olympic level, he finished. 9 th at Sydney.
I used to run one of the largest equestrian centres in the south where I spent many years selecting suitable horses for the centre, looking at soundness and way of going. Also. Schooled a large number of tricky horses.
I have groomed at international Level with some of the top riders.
I hold. my bhsi senior coaching certificate, bhsi stable managers certificate and my ukcc level 3

I have worked with dressage horses, show jumpers, polo ponies, event horses, riding school horses for years, when you see as many horses I have seen you develop your ability to improve horses and spot issues and lameness.
I am now running a. Successful livery yard and teaching all levels of rider and horse.

So yes, I think I have enough experience to have an opinion but to be honest, the above is irrelevant, any one can have an opinion and if you don't like what they are then keep your preferred training methods private

 

[little_flea]

If this is aimed at then I am happy to answer. I have five horses of my own. Two event horses, one was competing at 1* until he was injured and a younger horse who is at 100 level at the moment withdressage scores in the twenties. The other two are dressage horses, one is competing medium and schooling advanced medium. The other, the horse who had contact issues is competing at advanced medium and schooling at advanced. He has just started tempi changes.
I have produced , alongside a friend, a horse that was bought for less than a thousand pounds, to Olympic level, he finished. 9 th at Sydney.
I used to run one of the largest equestrian centres in the south where I spent many years selecting suitable horses for the centre, looking at soundness and way of going. Also. Schooled a large number of tricky horses.
I have groomed at international Level with some of the top riders.
I hold. my bhsi senior coaching certificate, bhsi stable managers certificate and my ukcc level 3

I have worked with dressage horses, show jumpers, polo ponies, event horses, riding school horses for years, when you see as many horses I have seen you develop your ability to improve horses and spot issues and lameness.
I am now running a. Successful livery yard and teaching all levels of rider and horse.

So yes, I think I have enough experience to have an opinion but to be honest, the above is irrelevant, any one can have an opinion and if you don't like what they are then keep your preferred training methods private

Obviously not aimed at you, I know you are very experienced, but thanks for the thorough CV.

I do not dispute that there are some very competent and experienced riders who have commented on these threads, some in favour of the training, some not. Of course there are different methods of training and not everyone will agree on everything, there are many ways to skin a cat and most people understand that what we are looking at is work in progress.

When you are more experienced, you can filter through advice and take the bits that make sense to you to heart and ignore others because you have the knowledge to do so and feel fairly secure in your overall approach. My understanding is that the OP is not very experienced. Imagine how you'd feel when you are trying to do the very best you can for your horse.

There are of course situations where you can appreciate comments from people with less experience - they have eyes after all and can certainly make good observations - but I also think that there are situations such as this one where the harsh words from an "armchair rider" who doesn't understand the full picture or the longer term aim of certain training methods, really can have a negative effect. Even harder when you don't know who the advice is coming from. I think most very experienced people would be more humble than this and appreciate that there IS in fact a plan in the longer term (several of the most competent people here have taken this approach). There is only so much you can do – take advice from good trainers and good vets – god knows even they disagree at times, and sometimes you just have to follow a path to see where it leads you. No matter what people think - chances are their way isn't right for everyone either! Some humility, open-mindedness and thinking before you type can work wonders. (not aimed at Charlie76 in case she feels jumped on)

 

[blitznbobs]

In answer to your question, I have trained a horse from a 4 year old (just backed) to grand prix - he was built for the job and this was fairly straight forward, I am currently short of a proper dressage horse so have taken on my Mum's coloured cob and triained him to medium and he really isn't built for the job so this is more of an acheivement. I also judge dressage. But as far as pre are concerned I don't have any experience of them but I am not a vet but I can tell when a horse isn't level behind...

 

[AmyMay]

When you are more experienced, you can filter through advice and take the bits that make sense to you to heart and ignore others because you have the knowledge to do so and feel fairly secure in your overall approach. My understanding is that the OP is not very experienced. Imagine how you'd feel when you are trying to do the very best you can for your horse.

Valid to a point.

However, as this is the OP's 15th video presentation - I think he's happy to take the warts and all comments that people make, and is not offended by any of it.

 

[pootleperkin]

People can bang on and on about what they like and don't like, but I think the pertinent Q is this: the OP was going to give this trainer a month to see how she progressed his horse - we can't be far away from that point, so James, do you think you are going to keep employing her as Armas' trainer?

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Just out of interest, all you people who are so outrageously critical - what level do you compete at/have brought horses on to?

I am not saying your opinions are not valid but I do think that unless you really really understand the stages, difficulties and pitfalls of re-schooling/producing dressage horses to a high level, perhaps it is better to be a bit more openminded to different training methods.

I won't comment as I show jump and have never trained a "proper" dressage horse to any reasonable level (my biggest achievement is intermediate eventing on ponies which hardly counts for real dressage), so I simply don't know enough and will thus keep my trap shut. Perhaps a few here could do with considering a similar approach?

Armas - I really hope you don't let these people get to you too much - people banging around at Prelim may not be able to understand what your trainer is trying to do (me included) so I would have faith and give it a chance. Wonderful horse.

Comments like this make me laugh! Because no top level rider has ever ruined a horse in pursuit of their competition goals?

Have I competed at top level dressage? - no. Why? Partly because I am an amateur rider with a small budget have one horse who went lame with SI injury 7 years ago. His welfare means more to me than any prize however with careful management I was able to compete successfully at Unaff Ele (with BD Judges). I would definitely have achieved more if only I had had the ruthlessness to have him PTS or a field to throw him away in whilst I got myself a sounder mount.

Can I ride like Carl Hester? No and never could. However I have trained regularly with some great instructors one who was a student of Nuno Oliveira, another who is a list 1 Judge, part of the TTT and trains regular with the likes of Arthur Kottas. I have also ridden and/or owned horses for nearly 40 years. I make it my business to educate myself and keep learning and I certainly do not know even a smidgen of what some of the people on here know (e.g. Auslander & _GG_ ) but I know enough to give a worthwhile opinion. More than James does I am petty sure.

 

[Caol Ila]

Like sussexbythesea, I am a one-horse owner. I never got past 2nd Level in the US because my horse doesn't have it in her to go higher and while she is well-built to do what she does (she is sound and fit as a fiddle at 20 -- not complaining!) I am not sure she has the conformation to have stayed sound at the upper levels had I pushed that. I never showed since moving to the UK because I was doing a PhD and had no extra money (or transport, not to mention hassles like needing another bloody driving test in order to tow a trailer, which wasn't the case in the US). I also like her too much to sell her on to buy the "next" fancier horse.

But I spend a lot of time educating myself and thinking about how to be a better horseperson and I like to think that sometimes I might know what I'm talking about. I am also heartened by the fact that no horse I have spent any significant of time working with, be it mine or someone else's, has gotten worse. They tend to improve, albeit not to Grand Prix. I guess I can't be too clueless. Only a little bit.

 

[PaddyMonty]

Just out of interest, all you people who are so outrageously critical - what level do you compete at/have brought horses on to?

I occasionally beg rides / sit on other peoples horses. I dont have one of my own.

 

[Mongoose11]

I think SBTS has hit the nail on the head. There are many, many people on here who are more experienced than James in this area. I can't believe that people are feeling the need to have to put forward their CVs for perusal before anyone might cast their eye over their post.

Me? Only ever owned one horse - current cob of my dreams and have not competed. Prior to that I had an ex racer turned masters hunt horse on loan for many years. I have only been involved with horses for 10 years.

 

[Caol Ila]

I think SBTS has hit the nail on the head. There are many, many people on here who are more experienced than James in this area. I can't believe that people are feeling the need to have to put forward their CVs for perusal before anyone might cast their eye over their post.

Me? Only ever owned one horse - current cob of my dreams and have not competed. Prior to that I had an ex racer turned masters hunt horse on loan for many years. I have only been involved with horses for 10 years.

Happens on all forums the world over. I also post on an Irish traditional music forum and whenever a big row breaks out (usually over the best and worst ways to learn how to make tunes sound like Irish tunes), people invariably challenge each other to post recordings of their own playing. "If you think your advice is 'all that,' how well do YOU play?" kind of thing.

 

[PolarSkye]

Ok...have had another look at the video this morning.

Would this be how I approached helping this horse? No.

Do I think James is doing a disservice to his horse? No. Not necessarily.

No, me neither - but I am confused about the approach . . .

His evasions are hilarious...I could watch this horse all day as I can practically hear his inner monologue thinking up new ways to not quite do what he knows is being asked of him.

I would like to see more off the track work in general, but not in the rein back. Many people have, IMO quite correctly pointed out that he does not sit or take the weight behind in the rein back, which is the general objective. He remains more or less equal in his weigh distribution and goes off slightly on the forehand. This isn't because rein back is a bad exercise for him, but because it is another example that I see that the rider is not listening very well to the horse behind her.
Evasion doesn't just come in the mouth. It can come anywhere. What I see in the rein back is that the horse is evading the exercise completely. I did not see one good, quality rein back. He is evading through stepping out rather than stepping back and under. He doesn't want to take the weight behind, so he is achieving the rein back and therefore making the rider happy by simply taking steps where he widens his hindlegs to allow room for his fronts to come back without the need to sit and round his back. The rider, not really aware of what is happening behind her is then sending him on, but no benefit is seen as the exercise was lost anyway.

I would like to see her only do the rein back against the fence until she can control Armas behind as well as in front. Just to help him stay straight and true. I also would like to see her slow it down just a tad, some if the rein backs were a little rushed.

I'll go along with 99% of this . . . the only thing I disagree with is whether she should be riding rein back at all - I'd like to see her teaching him to do it properly from the ground first - where she can SEE the evasion and correct it.

Ok...that's that done...onto the forward work. A few have disliked the fact that she sends Armas quite forward out of the baby collected steps. I'll be totally honest, I think she is doing this as it is the lesser of two evils. This is somewhere that I do feel she is listening to him. It is his front end again that she is listening to, but she is listening. When she sends him forward into a steady working trot, he doesn't seek any contact and he begins to revert to dipping BTV. When she sends him on into a more forward trot, he does at least take the rein forward and maintains a nice carriage for more than a few strides at a time. I wouldn't want to see this all the time as it will come at the cost of any work to engage the hind, but as a release from the baby steps, I don't dislike it. It is a method, if nothing else to allow him to find a higher head carriage a natural place to be. A little subconscious retraining is going there and I will always take free improvements where I can get them

But surely if she is still only listening to the front end, she is just either encouraging or letting him stay on his forehand? This is just my observation - I'm quite prepared to be persuaded otherwise .

It's great to see her canter more at the beginning. I think I said it on early threads and I know I have said it by PM to James that his comfort work is his canter work. That I would like to see him warm up in walk and then go straight into canter. Canter work with a light contact, in a half seat and focussing on riding the corners will allow him to relax in his back, fire the engines up, get a forward thinking mind and also through corners, not bends, start listening to the leg a little more and bending around it as opposed to evading it which I am still seeing.

Completely 100% agree. I have said time and again that my own (non PRE) tricky boy is very similar in brain to Armas - very quick to evade, always thinking (usually about how NOT to do what you've just asked ), prone to being hot and not particularly forward thinking (not to be confused with fast) . . . canter is his safety pace and he always, always, always goes better if he has had a chance to canter/think and be forward. IMHO, Armas could benefit from more canter work in his schooling sessions - particularly as part of his warm up . . . get him loose, enjoying himself, thinking WITH the rider rather than against, etc.

Also, I can't remember who asked the question, but it was a very good one . . . it must be very nearly a month since Virginie started training Armas - J, how do you feel about continuing with her?

FWIW, I do think posting these videos is very brave . . . I can only imagine the torrent of abuse I would get if I posted some of Kal's training sessions . . .

P

 

[PolarSkye]

Happens on all forums the world over. I also post on an Irish traditional music forum and whenever a big row breaks out (usually over the best and worst ways to learn how to make tunes sound like Irish tunes), people invariably challenge each other to post recordings of their own playing. "If you think your advice is 'all that,' how well do YOU play?" kind of thing.

Nail.

Head.

Hit.

Not only that, but such an attitude is ridiculously narrow-minded and condescending - not to mention petty.

P

 

[little_flea]

Well clearly people are more confident in their own knowledge and ability than I am... Please continue, I'm bowing out gracefully.

All the best of luck OP, hope all turns out well, you are very brave for putting all this on here.

 

[Mongoose11]

Well clearly people are more confident in their own knowledge and ability than I am... Please continue, I'm bowing out gracefully.

All the best of luck OP, hope all turns out well, you are very brave for putting all this on here.

You're missing the point. This is an Internet forum, what we say doesn't affect the horse or James (boy, that much is clear because he has an unwavering and determined path). Surely you can't think that anyone who dares to share their thoughts truly believes that they are the be all and end all? The guru? We are just people sharing our views and you shouldn't be afraid to share your own.

 

[little_flea]

Happens on all forums the world over. I also post on an Irish traditional music forum and whenever a big row breaks out (usually over the best and worst ways to learn how to make tunes sound like Irish tunes), people invariably challenge each other to post recordings of their own playing. "If you think your advice is 'all that,' how well do YOU play?" kind of thing.

Well - I would personally consider advise from an experienced musician with proven competence more valuable than from someone who has only begun playing... makes a lot more sense to me. Now could you give me the link to this forum - I might go over there and have a crack at critiquing some fiddle playing (how many strings does it have again? Oh well who cares)

 

[little_flea]

You're missing the point. This is an Internet forum, what we say doesn't affect the horse or James (boy, that much is clear because he has an unwavering and determined path). Surely you can't think that anyone who dares to share their thoughts truly believes that they are the be all and end all? The guru? We are just people sharing our views and you shouldn't be afraid to share your own.

I believe I have...

 

[Caol Ila]

When one of these rows erupted on the Irish music forum, a mate of mine who is a very fine Scottish piper and whistle player (have played sessions with him in "meatspace") pointed out that you don't need to hear anyone's playing to figure out whether they have a clue or not. It's usually apparent in their posts. Similarly, I don't feel like I need to know what level someone has ridden to or see them ride in order to figure out whether they have a grasp, or not, of the fundamental principles of dressage.

 

[Mongoose11]

I believe I have...

Well no, you felt that even with many horsey years experience you had little to add to the discussion because you don't do dressage. Well neither does Armas! You shared your views about why others shouldn't share their views

 

[TrasaM]

Well no, you felt that even with many horsey years experience you had little to add to the discussion because you don't do dressage. Well neither does Armas! You shared your views about why others shouldn't share their views

Touché

And a Q.

I keep hearing references to evasions. So;
1. What exactly do you think he's evading.
2. Why is he doing it.

I ask because I also hear this comment made during my lessons about a horse I ride and my feeling is always to think that if horse evading something then it is due to something I'm doing wrong or what s being asked of him is causing physical discomfort.

Same regards to tension in the horse. If he gets tense then I've caused it so its I who needs to collect my wits and change what I'm doing and get the horse relaxed once again.

 

[doriangrey]

Because, unfortunately it has often gone far from sharing views (which some do very well) to (I'll borrow little little_flea's phrase) outrageous criticism. It must be very hard to hear from people that your horse is unhappy/about to break when you are doing what you think is the best by him which includes taking advice from professionals. I enjoy watching the videos in any case, although I wish you would post them in 10 minute chunks OP. Adorable Alice mentioned that Armas wasn't very well muscled, although it's well known he's very fit. Does that come later in a dressage horse? He does look quite light for one that is working pretty hard.

 

[Caol Ila]

Touché

And a Q.

I keep hearing references to evasions. So;
1. What exactly do you think he's evading.
2. Why is he doing it.

I ask because I also hear this comment made during my lessons about a horse I ride and my feeling is always to think that if horse evading something then it is due to something I'm doing wrong or what s being asked of him is causing physical discomfort.

Same regards to tension in the horse. If he gets tense then I've caused it so its I who needs to collect my wits and change what I'm doing and get the horse relaxed once again.

In this case, the horse is evading the action of the bit and the rider's hands and he is also evading shifting his weight to his hindlegs and going straight. Why he does it is anyone's guess. Soreness, lack of training, lack of fitness, confusion, poor riding, pure laziness, you name it... If only they could talk.

 

[TrasaM]

.. If only they could talk.

If only we would listen

 

[Caol Ila]

If only we would listen

Yeah, well, there is that. :frown3:

 

[Clare85]

.....if he were mine, I'd be focusing on strengthening and fittening him overall and building up those quarters/strengthening his back/topline rather than half steps, etc. Hillwork in walk on a relatively long rein to get him to find his own balance and use those quarters, canter work, raised poles, some jumping and lots and lots of stretchy work. I'm not criticizing the rider herself - she seems knowledgeable enough and certainly knows how to ride . . . but I am confused by her approach - I feel as though she is asking him to do things he is just not built to do yet . . .

P

This. I completely agree with this. He seems very willing with a lovely temperament. It would be a real shame if he was pushed too far, too soon, before he's ready to cope with the work, it could have very detrimental long term effects.

 

[PaddyMonty]

If only they could talk.

They can but its a body language which a lot of riders dont understand. A lot of humans when faced with a language barrier will continue to say the same thing, they just say it louder and louder. The smart ones attempt to find a system of communication that both parties can work with to aid understanding.