Session 16.....

To many post for me to reply each one please except my apologies. Some very interesting points and a good debate. The reason I still post the videos is for the debate.
However the constant criticism that the horse is in pain etc crap rider does become tiresome. The rider competes at an extremely high level thus those kinds of comments are uncalled for and clearly not true.
I said I would re examine the position with the trainer after a month. I am happy with the progress and I am happy with things the way they are at the moment. I have taken on board many comments and have listened to the people I know and taken there advice. I also have my own opinion and own thought process thus for the time being Armas will be staying with the trainer as I am not going to pull the rug from under.

For those of you that you see no change or a very unhappy horse. I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree.

Billy I am glad that you have reined your comments in and It was very big of you to take on board the comments of others. That shows good character.
 
Armas said:
To many post for me to reply each one please except my apologies. Some very interesting points and a good debate. The reason I still post the videos is for the debate.
However the constant criticism that the horse is in pain etc crap rider does become tiresome. The rider competes at an extremely high level thus those kinds of comments are uncalled for and clearly not true.
.
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I listed reasons a horse, not necessarily this horse, might evade straightness and contact. Reasons might include, but are certainly not limited to, bad riding and pain. I don't know why this horse evades. I can guess, which would be a mix of dodgy training in the past, lack of muscle development in the right places to carry himself, old habits developed from being in pain due to the SI issues, it being kind of a default reaction when he doesn't understand the rider...all sorts of reasons. Would a different rider cause less evasion? Well, send _GG_ to France and we can find out!
 
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Armas said:
The rider competes at an extremely high level thus those kinds of comments are uncalled for and clearly not true.
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It is a dangerous assumption that because a rider competes at a high level that they must know what they are doing and therefore in the best postion to advise on / train a specific horse.
A fair few top riders have a very specific way of riding and will generally only get a horse to the top if that horse responds to their way of riding/training. It's one of the reason most top riders have a string of fairly similar horses.
I still maintain the current rider is not suited to Armas. That does not mean she is incompetent, just mismatched to horse.
You only have to look at supposedly difficult horses at top level that have a change of rider and suddenly shine or for horses that are outstanding then change riders and fail to acheive anything like their previous form.
Being a good rider is not enough. Having a horse to match the riding style is critical.
 
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My thoughts in answer to the why is he evading question are... It's hard without knowing the horse and sitting on him but there are lots of reasons - yes pain, confusion, poor riding are all possible.

However sometimes the cause is that we are asking (as riders) the horse to work in a way that is hard work for them (mentally and physically)... With time if they work correctly they gain strength and understanding and it becomes easier. But without working correctly the strength may not develop and the issue will never be addressed and improved. And it may be that long term the way of going the horse is finding easy can be detrimental to its health and soundness.

And in case anyone wonders (seeing as we are doing this!) I ride to medium affiliated on my own ex racehorse, am a judge and a vet!
 
Caol Ila said:
I listed reasons a horse, not necessarily this horse, might evade straightness and contact. Reasons might include, but are certainly not limited to, bad riding and pain. I don't know why this horse evades. I can guess, which would be a mix of dodgy training in the past, lack of muscle development in the right places to carry himself, old habits developed from being in pain due to the SI issues, it being kind of a default reaction when he doesn't understand the rider...all sorts of reasons. Would a different rider cause less evasion? Well, send _GG_ to France and we can find out!
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Armas is not a young horse ( 9 ) I think and if remember rightly James does not know much of what went on in his life before he bought him.
These issues will have there root in his early training which was probally about learning tricks rather than basics he's clever and sharp and would have learned stuff easily but perhaps not in the right way.
 
PaddyMonty said:
It is a dangerous assumption that because a rider competes at a high level that they must know what they are doing and therefore in the best postion to advise on / train a specific horse.
A fair few top riders have a very specific way of riding and will generally only get a horse to the top if that horse responds to their way of riding/training. It's one of the reason most top riders have a string of fairly similar horses.
I still maintain the current rider is not suited to Armas. That does not mean she is incompetent, just mismatched to horse.
You only have to look at supposedly difficult horses at top level that have a change of rider and suddenly shine or for horses that are outstanding then change riders and fail to acheive anything like their previous form.
Being a good rider is not enough. Having a horse to match the riding style is critical.
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Very wise words! I know from personal experience that there is a very specific type of horse that I click with - if it's a big, powerful warmblood type that needs to be ridden strongly up to the hand, contained and lightened - I can ride it and ride it pretty well. I wouldn't look twice at me on a sharp,wriggly, rush-y sort of horse, or an idle, disconnected sort, because I don't ride them as well. I can get a tune out of most horses, but that's down to training very hard for many years on a wide variety of horses, rather than natural ability. Everyone has their "sweet spot" type, and to be really good, I think you need to be aware of what suits your riding style.
 
I'm just curious to know what the rider thinks of these threads and the input into them? I'm assuming that she knows her every move is under the scrutiny of a very public forum?
 
I have not read all the posts either or watched all the video but the first few mins were enough. I have ridden horses like this and have a WB myself and train with a Prix St George and grand prix international rider. the horse is over bent, has no topline, does not work through from behind, has no swing mainly because he is not working over his back, therefore he is not going forward properly. The horse is completely locked up. The rider is fixed and does not give at all with the hands. the horse is not ready for this level of work given his outline and musclulature. I could go on but i wont. the horse is almost exhibiting rollkur it is so overbent but i wont go into that.
 
Auslander said:
Very wise words! I know from personal experience that there is a very specific type of horse that I click with - if it's a big, powerful warmblood type that needs to be ridden strongly up to the hand, contained and lightened - I can ride it and ride it pretty well. I wouldn't look twice at me on a sharp,wriggly, rush-y sort of horse, or an idle, disconnected sort, because I don't ride them as well. I can get a tune out of most horses, but that's down to training very hard for many years on a wide variety of horses, rather than natural ability. Everyone has their "sweet spot" type, and to be really good, I think you need to be aware of what suits your riding style.
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The point I was trying to make perhaps not so eloquently as I would I have like were comments such as the rider does not know how to ride has a crap seat should learn how to do rising trot does not know what a diagonal is etc are unfounded and unfair.

I agree certain riders just don't click with certain horses.

JH cheeky as usual please don't change.
 
scribble said:
I have not read all the posts either or watched all the video but the first few mins were enough. I have ridden horses like this and have a WB myself and train with a Prix St George and grand prix international rider. the horse is over bent, has no topline, does not work through from behind, has no swing mainly because he is not working over his back, therefore he is not going forward properly. The horse is completely locked up. The rider is fixed and does not give at all with the hands. the horse is not ready for this level of work given his outline and musclulature. I could go on but i wont. the horse is almost exhibiting rollkur it is so overbent but i wont go into that.
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You had me up and till the point you likened this to rolkur. Which has been well establish this is not.
 
scribble said:
I have not read all the posts either or watched all the video .
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Sighs...

It is a process, not a single moment in time. I'm sure even those of us who are supporting James would say the same as you if we could only be bothered to take what we see in front of us at a point in time. Without watching the video's, and reading the threads, you miss out on an awful lot of the story - if this was the final page, your comments would be fair - but he's on about chapter 6 at the moment...
 
I never look at your threads because they make me cringe but wanted to view this one as after 16 sessions I thought i'd see some great improvements. I was wrong. That poor poor poor horse. Stuck in rollkur, and has a worse back end than my arthritic (in hocks, and pelvis) little pony! I just dont see why you keep posting them when 95% of the forum are cringing themselves.

I want to see videos from when you first had him, do you have any?


I also dont like the excuse 'its because he is a pre' - thats lame. I ride a lusitano stally at work very often who works as psg level and can manage a 'long and low' outline easy peasy and a more uphill frame when working at higher levels.
 
It's going to take a while. For me it's like seeing an older horse (for comparison) that has never been ridden in an outline. That horse would find it comfortable to go with its head up in the air and would not have the right muscles to stretch down. Armas seems the opposite, when he evades he resorts back to his comfortable position of chin to chest. That's not the rider that's his natural evasion/comfort zone/position. In this video, I can definitely see moments when he takes the rein forward and is less over bent. It's going to take a long time to build those muscles, persuade him it's a better way of going. Not to mention the 90 millions evasions he has to avoid doing what she is asking!
I ride a horse that looks easy, she really does. She's not. It took me months to work out how to ask for an outline and even longer to crack the evasions! She's not a naughty horse just opinionated, and if you don't ask perfectly, you don't get
I think you have to bear in mind this isn't a horse coming from a poked out nose position to up, it's coming from over bent. So people who are commenting he's over bent, of course he is! We know from watching the videos he does this. Anyone who's ever sat on a horse that sticks it's chin to chest knows its bloody hard work to get them out of it, and this seems an established issue with him. Any tiny bit of improvement where he comes up/forward is progress
 
PolarSky....regarding the forward out of the baby steps...the reason I don't mid it at this point in time is that whilst it is most certainly not ideal , it is a way of teaching him by association to take the contact forward. I would rather that than a crappy trot with no benefit.
 
rachaelstar said:
I never look at your threads because they make me cringe but wanted to view this one as after 16 sessions I thought i'd see some great improvements. I was wrong. That poor poor poor horse. Stuck in rollkur, and has a worse back end than my arthritic (in hocks, and pelvis) little pony! I just dont see why you keep posting them when 95% of the forum are cringing themselves.
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He is not in rollkur... rollkur is forced this BTV is not it is an evasion... I don't like the picture for many reasons but this is not rollkur.
 
Well he is really. Whether its forced or he is forcing it himself he is in rollkur - very behind the vertical and clearly unhappy. At some point he has been taught to go like this through force or draw reins and the rider isnt doing anything to help over come this, just making it worse.

If anything, I wouldnt even worry about the front end for the moment and work on the back end - its dragging behind a mile off.

eta - not going to look at any of these threads till you're atleast on session 30 - maybe then they'll be some improvement.
 
rachaelstar said:
I never look at your threads because they make me cringe but wanted to view this one as after 16 sessions I thought i'd see some great improvements. I was wrong. That poor poor poor horse. Stuck in rollkur, and has a worse back end than my arthritic (in hocks, and pelvis) little pony! I just dont see why you keep posting them when 95% of the forum are cringing themselves.

I want to see videos from when you first had him, do you have any?


I also dont like the excuse 'its because he is a pre' - thats lame. I ride a lusitano stally at work very often who works as psg level and can manage a 'long and low' outline easy peasy and a more uphill frame when working at higher levels.
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Is this a serious post? It is totally pointless commenting or forming opinions when you are only looking at a fraction of the picture.

This isn't rollkur, Rollkur is defined by the FEI as being "flexion of the horses neck achieved through aggressive force". There is no aggressive force on this horse in any of these videos.

Only a couple of posters have used the argument that he is PRE and therefore can't go long and low. Most have quashed that.

Please...if you want your posts to be taken seriously, post from a position of knowledge after at least watching more than a couple of sessions.

If you are experienced at higher levels, why not watch objectively and share your knowledge?
 
rachaelstar said:
Well he is really. Whether its forced or he is forcing it himself he is in rollkur - very behind the vertical and clearly unhappy. At some point he has been taught to go like this through force or draw reins and the rider isnt doing anything to help over come this, just making it worse.

If anything, I wouldnt even worry about the front end for the moment and work on the back end - its dragging behind a mile off.

eta - not going to look at any of these threads till you're atleast on session 30 - maybe then they'll be some improvement.
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No it's not rollkur, rollkur is a training system .This horse is not being asked to put his head where he does ,is a very bad habit that he has learned.
 
rachaelstar said:
Well he is really. Whether its forced or he is forcing it himself he is in rollkur - very behind the vertical and clearly unhappy. At some point he has been taught to go like this through force or draw reins and the rider isnt doing anything to help over come this, just making it worse.

If anything, I wouldnt even worry about the front end for the moment and work on the back end - its dragging behind a mile off.

eta - not going to look at any of these threads till you're atleast on session 30 - maybe then they'll be some improvement.
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Rachaelstar...you can clearly spot things (although no, this is irrefutably not rollkur) so if you're going to bother to post, why not make it constructive as opposed to accusatory?
 
rachaelstar said:
Well he is really. Whether its forced or he is forcing it himself he is in rollkur - very behind the vertical and clearly unhappy. At some point he has been taught to go like this through force or draw reins and the rider isnt doing anything to help over come this, just making it worse.

If anything, I wouldnt even worry about the front end for the moment and work on the back end - its dragging behind a mile off.

eta - not going to look at any of these threads till you're atleast on session 30 - maybe then they'll be some improvement.
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I am sorry but your post clearly demonstrates a lack of knowledge and that is coming from some one that has not a lot me. Rolka is a training method, which pointed out this is not. As for him has been taught to go this way again you are demonstrating your lack of knowledge and understanding of this breed despite what you may think.
P
 
_GG_ said:
Is this a serious post? It is totally pointless commenting or forming opinions when you are only looking at a fraction of the picture.

This isn't rollkur, Rollkur is defined by the FEI as being "flexion of the horses neck achieved through aggressive force". There is no aggressive force on this horse in any of these videos.

Only a couple of posters have used the argument that he is PRE and therefore can't go long and low. Most have quashed that.

Please...if you want your posts to be taken seriously, post from a position of knowledge after at least watching more than a couple of sessions.

If you are experienced at higher levels, why not watch objectively and share your knowledge?
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No im completely joking. (Do we have a roll eyes smiley anymore?)

At some point in this horses life he has been pinned in rollkur, you can quite clearly see this. The position of this riders hands/elbows/shoulders when he is working 'up and round' does not help him to grow a longer neck and work throughout his whole body which will never help him to stop being over bent. I dont have time to watch all the videos, i'd rather be riding my own horse for the half hour. But from what i've seen there are no improvements and I dont think there will be till he gets his back end sorted out. Like I said my little pony who does have back end problems moves better than him which is seriously saying something. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and im not going to argue mine out, there is no need. Some people see improvements, others dont.
 
_GG_ said:
I can't understand why anyone would want to lower the head for a movement in which the horse should be more uphill than pretty much all of the others? But no...she isn't going to try them for that. She is trying them to stop him falling out through the right shoulder. If he reacts by tucking in, she will take them off.
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When training a horse for piaffe if the hind quarters are weak 'encouraging' a lower head carriage can help them relax, perform the movement. SI issues put a different slant on this IMO.
Don't call people idiots, it's very rude.
 
Does the rider normally ride Iberians or is she a warmblood rider? They really are polar opposites in the way their training should be addressed. Working him so deep will never help him to develop.

*Disclaimer* I have lots of experience with iberians and have worked with a lot of top classical trainers to ride them up to GP level

My sister in law runs a club aimed at Iberian owners in France, PM me if you're interested and I'll give you a link, they run stages and can give you advice on good trainers.
 
Armas said:
I am sorry but your post clearly demonstrates a lack of knowledge and that is coming from some one that has not a lot me. Rolka is a training method, which pointed out this is not. As for him has been taught to go this way again you are demonstrating your lack of knowledge and understanding of this breed despite what you may think.
P
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Read post above. I dont really value the 'understanding of this breed' comment because i've never seen a pre go like this. He does not look comfortable or happy in his work.
 
_GG_ said:
Rachaelstar...you can clearly spot things (although no, this is irrefutably not rollkur) so if you're going to bother to post, why not make it constructive as opposed to accusatory?
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Okay then. Please get his back end checked out again (think it was armas that had it done a while ago? Never really come into this part of the forum very often so cant remember if it is you or someone else?) It does not work correctly and he is not happy to use it. Especially when he works higher up in his neck and behind the vertical.
 
rachaelstar said:
No im completely joking. (Do we have a roll eyes smiley anymore?)

At some point in this horses life he has been pinned in rollkur, you can quite clearly see this. The position of this riders hands/elbows/shoulders when he is working 'up and round' does not help him to grow a longer neck and work throughout his whole body which will never help him to stop being over bent. I dont have time to watch all the videos, i'd rather be riding my own horse for the half hour. But from what i've seen there are no improvements and I dont think there will be till he gets his back end sorted out. Like I said my little pony who does have back end problems moves better than him which is seriously saying something. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and im not going to argue mine out, there is no need. Some people see improvements, others dont.
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You're preaching to the converted about his past training...I absolutely agree with you on that and have said it myself in many of the threads.

Fellewell said:
When training a horse for piaffe if the hind quarters are weak 'encouraging' a lower head carriage can help them relax, perform the movement. SI issues put a different slant on this IMO.
Don't call people idiots, it's very rude.
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I can't understand it because of this horses issues. It is very difficult to have things taken in context when there have been so so many posts. In my mind, I have already said things a dozen times so may not fully explain when I make another point.

I do not see where I have called anyone an idiot. I can honestly tell you, I would never do that. I am not that type of person.
 
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