Session 17 warts & all.....

Well.. in I go again :wink3: with a post long enough to rival one of GG's ;) but I thought there were a lot of very positive moments during this session. The working trot and canter is looking possibly the best it has so far under saddle. He is beginning to look as relaxed and through as he does on the long reins now which is lovely. And so nice to see him returning to that open frame each time as his 'rest' position after doing some harder work.

For me, this session really highlighted where I think this rider has picked up from where David left off. At the end of the BB videos I felt the horse was allowing himself to be steered and the pace walk/trot/canter to be selected, but not a lot more. Where I think this rider has really succeeded is changing the horse's attitude slightly to the point where he is now allowing himself to be *ridden* much more - big steps, small steps, sideways, forward, back - it all looks a lot more accepting. That's quite a big change for me, and an important one because even the basics can't be improved until the horse lets the rider 'in'.

I don't know her intentions, clearly, but using passagey steps and half steps is a good trick in this case because it's something he's found easy almost immediately. So he has quickly learnt to wait but still keep working as she asks him to maintain the activity. Sure, they are not test quality, nor do I believe that is what she is aiming for. But a useful tool to show the horse that he doesn't have to run away from the leg. Something which can then be applied to other work. A roundabout way of achieving that, but it looks like the penny is dropping.

I can also maybe see the logic behind the rather fast trot afterwards. He's probably not a horse that will find extensions easy in the trot. Where she has kept the pressure on in previous sessions while he worked out how to produce those passagey steps, so it could also happen that if he is asked to keep trotting forward into a contact, eventually he may twig and instead of rushing he could begin to push more.
I only mention it because it has been something that has helped my horse to understand what is needed. On a hack, extensions come very easy but in the school she has a mental block. No amount of transitions, lateral work, all the usual prep for extending really made a difference - she needed to run until she pulled into the reins and pushed with her hind legs. not pretty, not classical, but it was how she learnt.

On the subject of showing a horse something in a different way, I thought the running reins were reasonably successful. he did not appear confused or overfaced by them after the first couple of minutes.

re. the walk. I think a chiro visit will be well timed. But the right hind issue is still more apparent when he is not accepting the aids she is giving. When he does, it is much, much less glaring. It looked like baby walk pirouettes that she was working on before each canter transition. To be fair, they haven't done a lot of work on the walk together so he is finding that a difficult question - to allow his body to be placed where she is asking, while still remaining soft and accepting. She's said before that he wants to step out, rather than under with that hind leg and it's not uncommon for the steps to become irregular at that point. (not desirable, but given his history not unexpected either :wink3:).
 
still talk about lameness I see oh sorry no he isn't lame...:rolleyes3:

I don't really see how you can ignore the issue when so many people have mentioned it.

Didn't you have a vet when Armas had choke. yes as far as I know no one here is a vet but that vet you used in the choke situation was wrong why wouldn't another vet be wrong about the lameness and returning back to normal work ?


were all trying to help I'm pretty sure no one is just saying he's lame for the sake of it.
 
Because the vet that treated the SI and the follow ups is one of the French Olympic vets working at the Ecole nationale d'équitation et du Cadre Noir de Saumur. The vet is a specialised and can only be seen with a referral.
So I am in no doubt about his assessment. Interestingly milliepops is also a vet and also is of the opinion that it is weakness. But not content with that I asked two other friends who are vets to watch the videos as they are in the UK there analysis was the same.
 
I love and have ex race horses, I would never expect to go and win races with them, if they could, I would not be lucky enough to have them. James got a older PRE from Spain and I am sure that if Armas was without problems, be it sound wise, ability wise he would not have been gelded, nor would he have been offered for sale to a novice such as James. I feel sure that the home required for this horse was for a novice rider to hack and enjoy and not someone who wants to make him into something that he never was and will never be. The only person not really enjoying this horse for what he is, is James, and he is the one that does not ride him. He has lots of friends on here though and the sessions and replies to the sessions will go on until he gets another trainer, then it will start all over again.
 
milliepops said:
Well.. in I go again :wink3: with a post long enough to rival one of GG's ;) but I thought there were a lot of very positive moments during this session. The working trot and canter is looking possibly the best it has so far under saddle. He is beginning to look as relaxed and through as he does on the long reins now which is lovely. And so nice to see him returning to that open frame each time as his 'rest' position after doing some harder work.

For me, this session really highlighted where I think this rider has picked up from where David left off. At the end of the BB videos I felt the horse was allowing himself to be steered and the pace walk/trot/canter to be selected, but not a lot more. Where I think this rider has really succeeded is changing the horse's attitude slightly to the point where he is now allowing himself to be *ridden* much more - big steps, small steps, sideways, forward, back - it all looks a lot more accepting. That's quite a big change for me, and an important one because even the basics can't be improved until the horse lets the rider 'in'.

I don't know her intentions, clearly, but using passagey steps and half steps is a good trick in this case because it's something he's found easy almost immediately. So he has quickly learnt to wait but still keep working as she asks him to maintain the activity. Sure, they are not test quality, nor do I believe that is what she is aiming for. But a useful tool to show the horse that he doesn't have to run away from the leg. Something which can then be applied to other work. A roundabout way of achieving that, but it looks like the penny is dropping.

I can also maybe see the logic behind the rather fast trot afterwards. He's probably not a horse that will find extensions easy in the trot. Where she has kept the pressure on in previous sessions while he worked out how to produce those passagey steps, so it could also happen that if he is asked to keep trotting forward into a contact, eventually he may twig and instead of rushing he could begin to push more.
I only mention it because it has been something that has helped my horse to understand what is needed. On a hack, extensions come very easy but in the school she has a mental block. No amount of transitions, lateral work, all the usual prep for extending really made a difference - she needed to run until she pulled into the reins and pushed with her hind legs. not pretty, not classical, but it was how she learnt.

On the subject of showing a horse something in a different way, I thought the running reins were reasonably successful. he did not appear confused or overfaced by them after the first couple of minutes.

re. the walk. I think a chiro visit will be well timed. But the right hind issue is still more apparent when he is not accepting the aids she is giving. When he does, it is much, much less glaring. It looked like baby walk pirouettes that she was working on before each canter transition. To be fair, they haven't done a lot of work on the walk together so he is finding that a difficult question - to allow his body to be placed where she is asking, while still remaining soft and accepting. She's said before that he wants to step out, rather than under with that hind leg and it's not uncommon for the steps to become irregular at that point. (not desirable, but given his history not unexpected either :wink3:).
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Would you like me to send you some cake? You have just saved me posting :smile3:

The only differences being, I cannot compare to BB as have only seen one video of him riding and...

I do think he looked a little more guarded in his movement behind today. I'd like to maybe see the sessions limited to 30 minutes when working on this kind of stuff.

But, as for the running reins, agree with you Milliepops. I actually think he relaxed into the security that they gave him. Not a bad thing in the short term but not something I would want to see him learn to rely on as it will put him back at square one.

I think that may be it from me actually...you covered it as if you were in my head :smile3:
 
Oh dear, I appear to have become slightly addicted to Armas!

I thought there was a lot more to like about today's video. Armas looked much more relaxed and accepting and as the session went on he dropped BTV much less. Glad the running reins were removed quickly as I don't think they were helpful.

I have to agree with others though that I think the pressure should be taken off him a bit. He seemed to be starting to produce some nice moments today, but instead of letting him break after the few sweet steps he gave, he was asked to di more and more, which didn't seem much reward to me.

I thought some of his canter work was nice and he seemed to be using his back end more effectively. However, I do feel he would benefit from more transitions, turns across the school, variation to just going round and round in one pace for what seems like hours. Tempo wise, fitness wise and muscle wise, balancing exercises would help a lot, and maybe some pole work too.

I have to say, I really do have a soft spot for Armas, what a lovely chap! :)
 
GFG, I agree, I think in a previous thread James said that Armas was passed fit for work after steroid injection but not been lameness assessed since. And as many would know on here SI often needs to be a management issue/retreatment etc.

James, iirc you don't have years of horse experience behind you hence why you appeared on here in the first place/presumably why you post vids for comment etc? I think it must be pretty hard receiving such a barrage of information and do think that some posts certainly have more credit than others. But any poster on here regularly does know who know's what they are talking about and do have the experience to comment, they don't all collectively say the same thing and I wouldn't expect them to but I do think that they are all worth listening too.
 
Yet again justbob your posts are nonsense. Many more horses are gelded and sold in Spain now as it makes them more commercial. You can buy any level of PRE that you want in Spain. I enjoy and hack out my horse every week and have recently returned from a 4 day beach trip. So your analysis is wrong.
Its strange that you have NEVER posted any thing ever positive on any of my threads. Even pictures of my boy sleeping in the sun all you could say is he looks under weight.
Armas was 7 when I bought him not particular old.
 
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justabob said:
I love and have ex race horses, I would never expect to go and win races with them, if they could, I would not be lucky enough to have them. James got a older PRE from Spain and I am sure that if Armas was without problems, be it sound wise, ability wise he would not have been gelded, nor would he have been offered for sale to a novice such as James. I feel sure that the home required for this horse was for a novice rider to hack and enjoy and not someone who wants to make him into something that he never was and will never be. The only person not really enjoying this horse for what he is, is James, and he is the one that does not ride him. He has lots of friends on here though and the sessions and replies to the sessions will go on until he gets another trainer, then it will start all over again.
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Well, if he has a friend in me, I have been pretty damn hard on him throughout all the threads. I think most have just been objective.

I understand your point about the horses potential, but I don't personally have a problem in a horse like this being trained enough to make him strong enough for some low level dressage and equitation which is the aim. Also, even a happy hacker, if it is indeed going to be happy, needs to be comfortable and strong enough to hack. The issues this horse has with the weakhoolness need working on to overcome. To just hack and enjoy him as it is would be to willingly allow him to always have a weakness, short of making hacking a job that would do the work outside of the school.

Better to do some work and have a happy, healthy and strong horse at the end than not do the work and leave the horse to have a long term issue.

That's just my opinion of course and I wouldn't approach it the same way as this trainer, but I don't think she's doing too bad a job tbf.
 
justabob said:
I love and have ex race horses, I would never expect to go and win races with them, if they could, I would not be lucky enough to have them. James got a older PRE from Spain and I am sure that if Armas was without problems, be it sound wise, ability wise he would not have been gelded, nor would he have been offered for sale to a novice such as James. I feel sure that the home required for this horse was for a novice rider to hack and enjoy and not someone who wants to make him into something that he never was and will never be. The only person not really enjoying this horse for what he is, is James, and he is the one that does not ride him. He has lots of friends on here though and the sessions and replies to the sessions will go on until he gets another trainer, then it will start all over again.
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I find this an interesting observation and can't help but think there may be some truth and wisdom in it. :(
 
milliepops said:
I can also maybe see the logic behind the rather fast trot afterwards. He's probably not a horse that will find extensions easy in the trot. Where she has kept the pressure on in previous sessions while he worked out how to produce those passagey steps, so it could also happen that if he is asked to keep trotting forward into a contact, eventually he may twig and instead of rushing he could begin to push more.
I only mention it because it has been something that has helped my horse to understand what is needed. On a hack, extensions come very easy but in the school she has a mental block. No amount of transitions, lateral work, all the usual prep for extending really made a difference - she needed to run until she pulled into the reins and pushed with her hind legs. not pretty, not classical, but it was how she learnt.

On the subject of showing a horse something in a different way, I thought the running reins were reasonably successful. he did not appear confused or overfaced by them after the first couple of minutes.

re. the walk. I think a chiro visit will be well timed. But the right hind issue is still more apparent when he is not accepting the aids she is giving. When he does, it is much, much less glaring. It looked like baby walk pirouettes that she was working on before each canter transition. To be fair, they haven't done a lot of work on the walk together so he is finding that a difficult question - to allow his body to be placed where she is asking, while still remaining soft and accepting. She's said before that he wants to step out, rather than under with that hind leg and it's not uncommon for the steps to become irregular at that point. (not desirable, but given his history not unexpected either :wink3:).
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My issue was not that she was allowing him to rush forwards, because it worked beautifully on the first couple of occasions she did it in this session, but after that she started to drop him after the half steps, so that he had nothing to rush into.

I don't think the running reins did any harm, and I agree that he accepted them very well, but I don't think they had the desired effect, which is why she took them off. TBH I think that straightness-wise she is losing the back end more than the front, which is perhaps why she was using the piri work at the end.

With regards the lameness in the walk work at the end - that is the first time I have seen movement that made me think that it was more than just a weakness in that area. To my eyes it goes beyond irregular steps and looks like a pain reflex because of the visible jolting as he puts that hind underneath him and bears a lot of weight through it.
 
Firstly he looks lame behind and swishes his tail when he strikes off right behind each time.
Secondly watching his neck wound in is hard to watch over and over stuffy stilted movement. But I see this completely alter when she lifts her backside out the saddle in a jump seat position both in trot and in canter where she lets the rein go and actually allows him forward that he does become a completely different outline. For me she doesn't stretch him enough and needs to forget about hands and ride with her leg and seat. and as I said on the previous posting he needs to swing through his back more. Geez he must be so tight in his back. Go back James and watch it when she lifts her seat forward into jump seat.

Take him out hacking, get him going forward and do some hillwork. Get him stronger.
 
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Goingforgold said:
Armas, you don't come across particularly nice. Considering you are apparently a novice owner (and i would agree with this as it seems to me you have learnt the terms but not the understanding), you would do better to be less, dare i say it, arrogant, and perhaps get an actual vet out to look at the horse.

Whether or not you think some posters are nonsense, time and time again i see you only wanting nice comments and questioning others experience when it comes to the undesirable comments you get.

I don't really know what the point is of all these (daily) videos. You say you like the debate but your actions speak otherwise. In my experience your horse is lame. Whether you choose to believe me is another matter.

I think considering your limited experience you would do better then to be rude and arrogant to some posters and perhaps be more open to other ideas. I agree with justabob, you are more likely to get a PRE gelded in England than in Spain as they are a status symbol. At the end of the day, you bought Armas as a novice rider to have fun on, unfortunately if he showed the promise to be a top dressage horse he might not have been sold to you or even at all. Dressage when done correctly is fantastic in improving a horse way of going, but you must have the basics installed.

You clearly love your horse, but i do believe you might be blinded by ambition. There is nothing wrong in building things slow. But are you able to continue with the work this trainer is doing? Its all very well paying £££ for her to ride him and train him but you will have to come along behind and compliment her work.
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Do you own a PRE have you been to Spain to by a PRE what is your experience in that market ? As you can by any level of horse you want in Spain perhaps you have not heard that there is a recession in Spain.
Frankly rude and arrogant yep I have no problem with being both of those to people that rude and arrogant to me why would I ever want to be polite to a person who constantly rude to me ??
 
Armas said:
Yet again justbob your posts are nonsense. Many more horses are gelded and sold in Spain now as it makes them more commercial. You can buy any level of PRE that you want in Spain. I enjoy and hack out my horse every week and have recently returned from a 4 day beach trip. So your analysis is wrong.
Its strange that you have NEVER posted any thing ever positive on any of my threads. Even pictures of my boy sleeping in the sun all you could say is he looks under weight.
Armas was 7 when I bought him not particular old.
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James I know justabob can be a bit rude at times and you and she have had differences, but I didn't think her post was unpleasant on this occasion. You might not agree with it, and she could be wrong, but it's not nonsense. I can see some sense in it.

I used to love your posts of Armas running free and you and he out together when you were riding him yourself. The difference to me between those old posts and the ones you put up now, is you and he looked really happy. You both seemed to be enjoying your life together in a beautiful setting.

To me that's not how it looks now.
 
FionaM12 said:
I'm quite surprised anyone has time to watch all these films and keep up with all the threads!
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When you are as bored and stuck in the house as I am, it is possible to read anything and everything, ranging from this thread about a strangely shaped spanish horse to the back of a cereal box. End result is what use is a spanish horse other than long manes, poor movement and odd conformation. All cereal is far more fattening than I thought it was !

The forum is very boring at the moment, lets have some more interesting posts, I need something to keep me occupied through yet another sleepless night. I shall be reaching for Fifty Shades of Grey soon.
 
how much more training with the trainer before you get on board ? are you going to be taught every she has taught armas. Or is the plan for her to ride him all the time ?
 
AdorableAlice said:
When you are as bored and stuck in the house as I am, it is possible to read anything and everything, ranging from this thread about a strangely shaped spanish horse to the back of a cereal box. End result is what use is a spanish horse other than long manes, poor movement and odd conformation. All cereal is far more fattening than I thought it was !

The forum is very boring at the moment, lets have some more interesting posts, I need something to keep me occupied through yet another sleepless night. I shall be reaching for Fifty Shades of Grey soon.
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Sweeping statement re Spanish horses and their usefulness!

One of mine is Ad Med, will just pop out and tell her that she has odd conformation and poor movement!

Armas is right, it is possible to get Spanish horses from Spain at any level, the Spaniards have also started to geld them as this makes them easier to sell into the UK and USA markets.

Armas may not be GP material, but there is no reason whatsoever why he could not, like any other horse, do a decent Elem test.
 
I suppose it's too much to hope that when people post on these....or any threads, they might just stop and try and be nice rather than what is starting to happen here yet again.

This kind of sniping is a really sad show of human behaviour. It also will do nothing to help the horse, so if you're just going to post to be negative...you have no right to say you are in favour of the horses wellbeing as anything constructive you may have to say will likely be ignored.

You can achieve far more through kindness and encouragement than you ever will through rudeness and discouragement.
 
Lets put thing in to perspective. Yes I have owned one PRE. However given I grew up in Spain speak Spanish fluently and have spent the last two years learning as much as I can about theses horses. spent my child hood around Spanish horses hence my love of them.
What greats me is statements such as they don't sell PRE's to any one. 99% of studs will sell any horse to any one as long as they have the money.
As Amaranta stated they are now exporting gelded horses to the USA

My post was not intended to personal.
 
Forest Fox said:
Let him answer for himself please
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I was not answering you, I was expressing my distaste for your pettiness, you don't like Armas, that much is plain, but your childish little jibes just make you look stupid and, as has already been said, does nothing for this horse.

Can't understand why UI is not being used, but then perhaps you enjoy an argument.
 
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