Session number 14 collected trot & passage beginning.

I enjoy these threads regardless of my personal viewpoint on the methods / effectiveness of the training.
What I would like to say is that the horse that is trained without any shortcuts or undue preesure is probably as rare as a unicorn.
The only time this is likely to happen is when the owner is also the rider, has the experience and skill to train the horse without any paid for assistance or advice and has no time frame attached to any goals. How often does that happen?
Sometimes the shortcuts will cause minor probelms further on in the training requiring a simple step back, sometimes the consequences can be major. Same with the level of pressure (mental and physical) applied.
Why does this happen? Money.
Professional help whether it be from a local AI or an olympic medalist cost money. The person giving the help generally does so to earn a living. The person receiving the help has an expectation of a positive outcome.
Therefore you get the situation where the pro may feel a a certain course of action is desirable but in going ahead with that action they will not meet the expectation of the person paying the bill. If that expectation is not met to some degree then it is unlikely they would return for further sessions. Thus the livelyhood of the pro is threatened.
What tends to happen is the action taken is a compromise between doing what is really required and meeting the expectation of the customer. Thus you get shortcuts and pressure.
For example, a rider books a lesson with a high ranking dressage pro to assist with changes. First time the pro sets eyes on the rider / horse combi it is obvious the quality of canter, level of collection, strength of horse, ability of rider all fall well short of those required to train changes. So does the pro spend the hour working on the basic canter and rider position completely ignoring any move towards changes as this would be the correct thing to do?
Highly unlikely. Most probably the session will be 50/50 split between correcting the issues and satisfying the customer.
Only once in 40 years have I had a trainer (top level SJ) take the pure approach. I went for an SJ lesson (paid for by owner). We spent the entire time working on the canter (which I felt was correct) and never left the ground.
Owner refused to allow us back to that trainer as in their eyes they hadn't received what they paid for. :mad:

When those being given instruction fully accept what needs to be done even if that means taking a horse at elementary back to walking, then and only then will true training take place. I'm not going to hold my breath on this one.

PS, for all those that will reply saying my trainer tells it exactly as it is I would respond that they do as far s they feel you will accept without walking away and no further.

I would love to see what the trainer of Aramas would do if given a completly free hand with no expectation or time frame would do differently.

Completely agree and said similar in I think my first post on this video. To be honest, it is why I don't charge when I train someone. My reward is in seeing the improvements, but I don't need the money. Not charging generally gives clients the security that I am not doing things in order to keep them paying me. When I then say that we need to take a few sessions away from what the goal is to set up the foundations properly, it is accepted and the work is done.

I also don't necessarily think it is a bad thing to be pushed either. I know very many people who actually take things a bit too slowly. Horses get stale and end up bored and become school sour. I'd rather see baby steps of movement way ahead of the horses training as a way of improving the basic work and keeping the horse interested and challenged, then see a horse doing endless repetitions of the same work in the pursuit of perfection before moving on.
So true yet so little practiced. Too often viewed as something to work towards rather than a basic requirement for development.
I think it should just come along as part of the ABC's of training to be honest. It isn't difficult in itself...we tend to make it difficult by overthinking it.
 
I've not watched the full video from start to finish or read all 194 replies and I'm not qualified to comment on the riding style but does she ever leave the outside track?? Is there a reason for not putting in some more circles and moves? My mare would switch off completely if I rode her round and round like that for 40 minutes.
 
I've not watched the full video from start to finish or read all 194 replies and I'm not qualified to comment on the riding style but does she ever leave the outside track?? Is there a reason for not putting in some more circles and moves? My mare would switch off completely if I rode her round and round like that for 40 minutes.

Yes she does....she also does lots of changes within gates and always asks different questions, so not really boring one dimensional work.
 
There is also sometimes merit when starting with something new in concerntrating on it for one session because it can give the horse a better chance of focusing on what your trying to show him .
And as -GG- says she is changing gaits and varying the question all the time .
This not how she will work this horse every session .
 
Todays session was a long reining, I can see the small changes the light bulb moments in Armas when he gets it. The collected ridden work when coupled with the LR work imho is a great tool.
The next session will be in the large arena and should be good to watch. As she has stated Armas goes much better in the bigger space where she works on transitions and lateral work.
The trainer has no time frame the work takes as long as it takes there is no rush.
 
God, are people STILL getting worked up over these threads :rolleyes3:

QR- Armas, haven't watched this one as am at work but have been watching some of the latest but haven't commented. I can see improvements for what it's worth. Doesn't mean I agree with everything the trainer does but quite frankly I've seen a lot worse and have more important things to get worked up about.
 
God, are people STILL getting worked up over these threads :rolleyes3:

QR- Armas, haven't watched this one as am at work but have been watching some of the latest but haven't commented. I can see improvements for what it's worth. Doesn't mean I agree with everything the trainer does but quite frankly I've seen a lot worse and have more important things to get worked up about.

Not all of us are worked up , some us are thoroughly enjoying the ride so to speak.
 
Theres more than 1 person being rude on here Some of the posts are quite dismissive of others unless theyre riding at grand prix level or have certificates up the wazoo, the thing is, just as there are good GP riders there are some grand prix riders that are very hard on their horses, and leave a trail of broken horses in their wake to get there, so competition experience and results can mean Jack .... Depending on the training ethos of the rider getting them.
Just because someone has a teaching ticket doesnt mean a whole lot either, they might just be doing the bare minimum to get by, some of the best teachers, coaches ive had didnt have a certificate but one was a naturally gifted rider who could get a good tume out of anything and had that rare gift of being able to translate it into her teaching.
The thing is you dont need either to spot a tense horse, or how the rider is ifluencing the horse, anyone who works/worked with horses might have something very relevant to contribute but feel they shouldnt because of some comments made.
 
For those that are interested here is todays video.

[video=youtube_share;C5kWgiZzd-8]http://youtu.be/C5kWgiZzd-8[/video]
 
James I just wondered what trainer/or others on here think is behind the fact armas seems to work much looser/better framed when long reined. Is it just because it is a different exercise for him so fewer bad habits?
 
James I just wondered what trainer/or others on here think is behind the fact armas seems to work much looser/better framed when long reined. Is it just because it is a different exercise for him so fewer bad habits?

In one of the other videos she address that exact question. No weight on his back makes life easier. However with the work she is doing this should build muscle and strengthen his back and make his movement more fluid.
 
I'm following these videos with great interest too. I see a horse who is improving, no matter how slowly and I could agree/disagree/criticise with methods and exercises used from my armchair (or desk chair!). However, I too have a 'challenging' Iberian, albeit in a much different way and it's only now, after 6 years that I feel he's started working with me - or I've started working with him. I don't want to do anything great - just schooling at home satisfies me these days, though the odd prelim here and there is a bonus. I guess I'm seeing Armas looking 'unhappy' at times, but wonder if this is only because he's cross about being told what to do and challenged - I know that's how mine can react!! So long as James loves his horse and wants the best for him (and it's clear he does), he's the one there first hand so I don't feel able to comment too much just from the videos - and others have already voiced my views many times already!

To hijack this thread a bit - GG, I really like your comments and see you're in Wiltshire. Do you ever venture to East Dorset at all because I would LOVE some 'external assistance' from someone who understands Iberians (and I do think they're a bit 'special' in the way they go and need something a little outside what most other horses require - never thought I'd say that!) - I am serious!
 
I'm following these videos with great interest too. I see a horse who is improving, no matter how slowly and I could agree/disagree/criticise with methods and exercises used from my armchair (or desk chair!). However, I too have a 'challenging' Iberian, albeit in a much different way and it's only now, after 6 years that I feel he's started working with me - or I've started working with him. I don't want to do anything great - just schooling at home satisfies me these days, though the odd prelim here and there is a bonus. I guess I'm seeing Armas looking 'unhappy' at times, but wonder if this is only because he's cross about being told what to do and challenged - I know that's how mine can react!! So long as James loves his horse and wants the best for him (and it's clear he does), he's the one there first hand so I don't feel able to comment too much just from the videos - and others have already voiced my views many times already!

To hijack this thread a bit - GG, I really like your comments and see you're in Wiltshire. Do you ever venture to East Dorset at all because I would LOVE some 'external assistance' from someone who understands Iberians (and I do think they're a bit 'special' in the way they go and need something a little outside what most other horses require - never thought I'd say that!) - I am serious!

I will PM you later...I am sure something can be arranged :)
 
Erm, can I please creep back in and apologise for being a total tw*t? That's with an A not an I :)

I am pretty sour at the moment, just incase you couldn't tell and appear to be taking it out on people over the Internet (weirdo). While I still believe in the things I have said, I can see that sometimes I'm just plain horrid. So yeh, sorry about that *meekfacethatdoesntexpecttobeforgiven*

That is all.
 
Erm, can I please creep back in and apologise for being a total tw*t? That's with an A not an I :)

I am pretty sour at the moment, just incase you couldn't tell and appear to be taking it out on people over the Internet (weirdo). While I still believe in the things I have said, I can see that sometimes I'm just plain horrid. So yeh, sorry about that *meekfacethatdoesntexpecttobeforgiven*

That is all.

People that can't accept apologies and offer forgiveness are not worth worrying about anyway.

Very nice post Billie :smile3:
 
Hhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm!

As others have posted above - this horse is being rushed into his work.

I see a horse that is BTV, does not take the rein contact, is not going forward, not tracking up, walk is hurried, lengthened strides are unbalanced and rushed.

I see a horse being worked around and around the outside of the arena with hardly any changes of rein or periods of relaxation.

I see a horse that needs to go back to basics - to work in a long soft frame, get his balance and get off his forehand.

Circles, loops, serpentines, lateral work would all have helped this horse develop engagement I saw only a few 20m circles in this video!

I haven't seen any of the earlier videos so cannot comment on any 'improvement'

I personally would be disappointed in how this horse is currently working if he were mine.
 
Erm, can I please creep back in and apologise for being a total tw*t? That's with an A not an I :)

I am pretty sour at the moment, just incase you couldn't tell and appear to be taking it out on people over the Internet (weirdo). While I still believe in the things I have said, I can see that sometimes I'm just plain horrid. So yeh, sorry about that *meekfacethatdoesntexpecttobeforgiven*

That is all.

Nicely done. We all have our off days so I'm reserving one in advance lol :D It's the freakin' sparrows, they set my teeth on edge :mad:
 
Erm, can I please creep back in and apologise for being a total tw*t? That's with an A not an I :)

I am pretty sour at the moment, just incase you couldn't tell and appear to be taking it out on people over the Internet (weirdo). While I still believe in the things I have said, I can see that sometimes I'm just plain horrid. So yeh, sorry about that *meekfacethatdoesntexpecttobeforgiven*

That is all.

Group hug!
 
Hhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm!

As others have posted above - this horse is being rushed into his work.

I see a horse that is BTV, does not take the rein contact, is not going forward, not tracking up, walk is hurried, lengthened strides are unbalanced and rushed.

I see a horse being worked around and around the outside of the arena with hardly any changes of rein or periods of relaxation.

I see a horse that needs to go back to basics - to work in a long soft frame, get his balance and get off his forehand.

Circles, loops, serpentines, lateral work would all have helped this horse develop engagement I saw only a few 20m circles in this video!

I haven't seen any of the earlier videos so cannot comment on any 'improvement'

I personally would be disappointed in how this horse is currently working if he were mine.

If you have not watched any of the other sessions how can you fully comment ? Each session has a goal and very specific orientated work.

He is my horse and I am not disappointed at all.
 
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