Session number 14 collected trot & passage beginning.

absolutely CBA to read the entire thread as theres so much drivel posted by those who wouldnt have the first clue how to train passage, or what it can be used to improve, and probably cant even get a soft supple trot out their own beast, never mind passage.........................

i can see what she's trying to do and whilst not perfect or pretty she's on the right lines.

training a horse up the levels is not a set sequence, movement by movement, tick one box and move on etc.

we have taught Fig passage to improve the medium trot, so shockingly he could do passage before a *proper* medium trot even though med trot is a novice movement and passage inter 2...............i have used piaffe to improve the ability to sit, to improve canter piris, even though the piris are PSG and pasage inter 2, have used shoulder in to improve engagement and straightness of a prelim 20m circle etc etc.

anyone who has trained a horse beyond the point of trucking round a circle on the forehand will know this! *head/desk interface*
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
absolutely CBA to read the entire thread as theres so much drivel posted by those who wouldnt have the first clue how to train passage, or what it can be used to improve, and probably cant even get a soft supple trot out their own beast, never mind passage.........................

i can see what she's trying to do and whilst not perfect or pretty she's on the right lines.

training a horse up the levels is not a set sequence, movement by movement, tick one box and move on etc.

we have taught Fig passage to improve the medium trot, so shockingly he could do passage before a *proper* medium trot even though med trot is a novice movement and passage inter 2...............i have used piaffe to improve the ability to sit, to improve canter piris, even though the piris are PSG and pasage inter 2, have used shoulder in to improve engagement and straightness of a prelim 20m circle etc etc.

anyone who has trained a horse beyond the point of trucking round a circle on the forehand will know this! *head/desk interface*
Click to expand...

And calm and breath , cool cloth please and lavender oil.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
absolutely CBA to read the entire thread as theres so much drivel posted by those who wouldnt have the first clue how to train passage, or what it can be used to improve, and probably cant even get a soft supple trot out their own beast, never mind passage.........................

i can see what she's trying to do and whilst not perfect or pretty she's on the right lines.

training a horse up the levels is not a set sequence, movement by movement, tick one box and move on etc.

we have taught Fig passage to improve the medium trot, so shockingly he could do passage before a *proper* medium trot even though med trot is a novice movement and passage inter 2...............i have used piaffe to improve the ability to sit, to improve canter piris, even though the piris are PSG and pasage inter 2, have used shoulder in to improve engagement and straightness of a prelim 20m circle etc etc.

anyone who has trained a horse beyond the point of trucking round a circle on the forehand will know this! *head/desk interface*
Click to expand...

Yep...there's more than one way to skin a duck!
 
Ahhh, I think I am working out how this forum works - if we hide behind more general rudeness rather than making it specific then we are refraining from 'attack' and merely making general observations? Why didn't someone say? This then allows the person to wonder if they are being criticised rather than actually being criticised. Mature :)
 
Billie1007 said:
Ahhh, I think I am working out how this forum works - if we hide behind more general rudeness rather than making it specific then we are refraining from 'attack' and merely making general observations? Why didn't someone say? This then allows the person to wonder if they are being criticised rather than actually being criticised. Mature :)
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Billie, you cure more ills with a kind hand than a cold heart. When you make it personal, which you have on many many occasions by being downright rude to and about James, you are ruining any chance you have of him ever listening to you objectively. If however, you made your point without descending into childish sniping and unpleasantness, you might find the things you say are better received.

many of us have outright disagreed with James at times and he hasn't been offended or ignored us because we haven't been rude.

Maturity in this situation is knowing the difference between what you say possibly having a positive effect on the horse or being totally lost through your inability to just be polite.
 
talking sense or polite discussion is generally accepted,whilst making blatently ignorant or inflammatory or rude, or just plain stupid, statements, about something you have no first hand experience of, is not.
 
_GG_ said:
Billie, you cure more ills with a kind hand than a cold heart. When you make it personal, which you have on many many occasions by being downright rude to and about James, you are ruining any chance you have of him ever listening to you objectively. If however, you made your point without descending into childish sniping and unpleasantness, you might find the things you say are better received.

many of us have outright disagreed with James at times and he hasn't been offended or ignored us because we haven't been rude.

Maturity in this situation is knowing the difference between what you say possibly having a positive effect on the horse or being totally lost through your inability to just be polite.
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Listen to GG Billy there is a lot of wisdom in her words.

After this mornings session I asked the trainer to comment on the session as she has had the opportunity to watch the session. Which gives a different perspective.

[video=youtube_share;q5brYm4q0Mk]http://youtu.be/q5brYm4q0Mk[/video]
 
Billie, I think the real problem is that you don't seem to believe that a lack of first hand experience would limit the insight that someone has. That is a bit bizarre. If I was to watch someone playing tennis I could easily comment on the very apparent strengths and weaknesses of a player, but I could by no means comment on the methods of the person coaching them, because I have no idea about the process of development in playing tennis.
 
DabDab said:
Billie, I think the real problem is that you don't seem to believe that a lack of first hand experience would limit the insight that someone has. That is a bit bizarre. If I was to watch someone playing tennis I could easily comment on the very apparent strengths and weaknesses of a player, but I could by no means comment on the methods of the person coaching them, because I have no idea about the process of development in playing tennis.
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this!
 
DabDab said:
Billie, I think the real problem is that you don't seem to believe that a lack of first hand experience would limit the insight that someone has. That is a bit bizarre. If I was to watch someone playing tennis I could easily comment on the very apparent strengths and weaknesses of a player, but I could by no means comment on the methods of the person coaching them, because I have no idea about the process of development in playing tennis.
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That simply isn't true. What with me not being a COMPLETE moron in the way life works. I have only sought to give my opinion on stuff that I have seen is uncomfortable in my opinion. At the risk of repeating myself I have talked about the rushing (as did others), the lack of stretching ( as did others), lack of release (as did others) do you see the theme here? What I didn't talk about were the tiny nuances of her riding as I'm just not experienced enough to do that. It is ok for me to have my own view, if you believe it is ill informed then so be it. Enough people have said as much BUT a lot of people GG included have also seen the things that I have picked up on so I can't be completely out at sea.

If you have an issue with my 'attack' on James the so be it. I don't think I have said anything utterly outrageous and was prepared to bow out of this until some very pointed posts were made. Notice I haven't yet cried 'personal attack'? Why would I? I'm a grown up.
 
I've read the whole thread and there is only one thing that worries me a bit. (I don't want to comment too much on trainer as not sat on horse myself so no idea how tricky he really is). However, I do think that the frequency of the sessions are a worry. I don't like to see quite so much intense schooling. If we're not aiming for Grand Prix dressage next week, then i'd try and limit sessions to no more than 2 a week (actually no idea how frequent they are, just videos seem to be popping up rapidly!). Especially in this heat........

I want to move my mare up a level with dressage (she too is PRE) - season starts mid Sept (also in France). But i'm not going to go mad with her, maybe 2 schooling a week with lots of hacking in between. It's hot here, flies are rubbish and grass is rapidly losing nutrition, so don't overdo it!

The only other comment i'd like to make is that I don't think you have to be an incredible rider yourself to spot where other people could improve. I'm by no means a GP rider, but watching top level dressage horses I can clearly identify where mistakes are made, who had a better extension/passage/piroutte etc..... Could I do better myself if in the saddle, I doubt it, but being on the ground can allow you to spot these things.
 
That's just it though Billie. Nobody is questioning that you are noticing the right things or that you have given praise when you have seen fit. I can't speak for others, but from my viewpoint, you just seem either unable or unwilling to keep it polite.

There's nothing wrong with being direct, but it is not going to help your case if you keep saying the same things without offering any insight or at least allowing for the possibility that whilst you may be right on one level...there may be many other levels that you just don't or won't see.

I don't have any problem with you myself, but I have a problem with bad manners. I applaud you for not getting upset when others are short about or to you...but that doesn't make it any more right to be rude yourself.

I honestly believe, through reading your input in other threads that if you were taken out of your body for a while and read these threads through a strangers eyes...you would feel the same about your posts as everyone else.

It's as if this whole subject is like a red flag to your bull and that's not good for you or Armas.
 
Spangie said:
I've read the whole thread and there is only one thing that worries me a bit. (I don't want to comment too much on trainer as not sat on horse myself so no idea how tricky he really is). However, I do think that the frequency of the sessions are a worry. I don't like to see quite so much intense schooling. If we're not aiming for Grand Prix dressage next week, then i'd try and limit sessions to no more than 2 a week (actually no idea how frequent they are, just videos seem to be popping up rapidly!). Especially in this heat........

I want to move my mare up a level with dressage (she too is PRE) - season starts mid Sept (also in France). But i'm not going to go mad with her, maybe 2 schooling a week with lots of hacking in between. It's hot here, flies are rubbish and grass is rapidly losing nutrition, so don't overdo it!

The only other comment i'd like to make is that I don't think you have to be an incredible rider yourself to spot where other people could improve. I'm by no means a GP rider, but watching top level dressage horses I can clearly identify where mistakes are made, who had a better extension/passage/piroutte etc..... Could I do better myself if in the saddle, I doubt it, but being on the ground can allow you to spot these things.
Click to expand...

Being on the ground can give more insights than imaginable to be honest. I like arenas with mirrors as it means I can see the horse without having to watch someone else ride, but as a trainer, it is extremely valuable to be on the ground.

I have never taught on a horse I haven't ridden myself either. I like to have a sit on and do a few minutes of basic work to see what makes a horse tick, then I am better able to understand the horse when helping the rider.

Exception being ponies that I am too big for.
 
_GG_ said:
That's just it though Billie. Nobody is questioning that you are noticing the right things or that you have given praise when you have seen fit. I can't speak for others, but from my viewpoint, you just seem either unable or unwilling to keep it polite.

There's nothing wrong with being direct, but it is not going to help your case if you keep saying the same things without offering any insight or at least allowing for the possibility that whilst you may be right on one level...there may be many other levels that you just don't or won't see.

I don't have any problem with you myself, but I have a problem with bad manners. I applaud you for not getting upset when others are short about or to you...but that doesn't make it any more right to be rude yourself.

I honestly believe, through reading your input in other threads that if you were taken out of your body for a while and read these threads through a strangers eyes...you would feel the same about your posts as everyone else.

It's as if this whole subject is like a red flag to your bull and that's not good for you or Armas.
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Completely agree with just about all of this. Red rag to my bull indeed... I just have an incredibly thick skin and genuinely can't see the upset sometimes. I don't really do 'offended' very much. Amusing that I have been told to 'leave it' so many times and then others continue to poke and prod. How can I resist?
 
Billie1007 said:
Completely agree with just about all of this. Red rag to my bull indeed... I just have an incredibly thick skin and genuinely can't see the upset sometimes. I don't really do 'offended' very much. Amusing that I have been told to 'leave it' so many times and then others continue to poke and prod. How can I resist?
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I am on another forum, a motorbike forum where a few of the girls are honestly all just as bad as each other. None can or will back down. It is simply a case of knowing when to step away.

That's not aimed at you alone....it's aimed anyone who pokes the fires. The more you poke them, the longer they burn, so the faff on this thread is not only of your making Billie.
 
Like Spangie I would limit the sessions too perhaps tp five a fortnight but there may be reasons that a more intensive programme is the necessary way to do it
I would be useing an equine physio as well as perhaps a bodyworker during period of intense work as well making sure there's enough high quality protein in the diet.
I like using the half steps it is difficult to do well but it's a valuable exercise especially with the horses than find it hard to do what I dont like to do is to rush the horses out of the half steps too much as I feel it puts horses back onto the forehand I come out trying to think of bigger up and out steps and sometimes into a very gradual leg yield across the school is a good way .
 
Goldenstar said:
Like Spangie I would limit the sessions too perhaps tp five a fortnight but there may be reasons that a more intensive programme is the necessary way to do it
I would be useing an equine physio as well as perhaps a bodyworker during period of intense work as well making sure there's enough high quality protein in the diet.
I like using the half steps it is difficult to do well but it's a valuable exercise especially with the horses than find it hard to do what I dont like to do is to rush the horses out of the half steps too much as I feel it puts horses back onto the forehand I come out trying to think of bigger up and out steps and sometimes into a very gradual leg yield across the school is a good way .
Click to expand...

There aren't many things a bit of well times lateral work can't help with ;)
 
Billie1007 said:
That simply isn't true. What with me not being a COMPLETE moron in the way life works. I have only sought to give my opinion on stuff that I have seen is uncomfortable in my opinion. At the risk of repeating myself I have talked about the rushing (as did others), the lack of stretching ( as did others), lack of release (as did others) do you see the theme here? What I didn't talk about were the tiny nuances of her riding as I'm just not experienced enough to do that. It is ok for me to have my own view, if you believe it is ill informed then so be it. Enough people have said as much BUT a lot of people GG included have also seen the things that I have picked up on so I can't be completely out at sea.

If you have an issue with my 'attack' on James the so be it. I don't think I have said anything utterly outrageous and was prepared to bow out of this until some very pointed posts were made. Notice I haven't yet cried 'personal attack'? Why would I? I'm a grown up.
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I've never said that you have 'attacked' James because I don't think you have. Your writing style is certainly confrontational, but I don't think it is particularly directed at James, you obviously just feel strongly about this particular training regime. I think I have, in a round about way agreed with a comment that you have made on another Armas thread, so I am certainly not singling you out and having a go. The problem is that you seem to doggedly hang onto particular aspects of the riding or training rather than being open to discussing them - I don't know whether that's what you intend but it is what comes across.

There are a number of comments that you have made that have been inflammatory and in the post of mine that you responded to I had picked out one of them. I apologise if I have misjudged you because it may well be a problem with the way I'm reading rather than way you are writing.
 
I enjoy these threads regardless of my personal viewpoint on the methods / effectiveness of the training.
What I would like to say is that the horse that is trained without any shortcuts or undue preesure is probably as rare as a unicorn.
The only time this is likely to happen is when the owner is also the rider, has the experience and skill to train the horse without any paid for assistance or advice and has no time frame attached to any goals. How often does that happen?
Sometimes the shortcuts will cause minor probelms further on in the training requiring a simple step back, sometimes the consequences can be major. Same with the level of pressure (mental and physical) applied.
Why does this happen? Money.
Professional help whether it be from a local AI or an olympic medalist cost money. The person giving the help generally does so to earn a living. The person receiving the help has an expectation of a positive outcome.
Therefore you get the situation where the pro may feel a a certain course of action is desirable but in going ahead with that action they will not meet the expectation of the person paying the bill. If that expectation is not met to some degree then it is unlikely they would return for further sessions. Thus the livelyhood of the pro is threatened.
What tends to happen is the action taken is a compromise between doing what is really required and meeting the expectation of the customer. Thus you get shortcuts and pressure.
For example, a rider books a lesson with a high ranking dressage pro to assist with changes. First time the pro sets eyes on the rider / horse combi it is obvious the quality of canter, level of collection, strength of horse, ability of rider all fall well short of those required to train changes. So does the pro spend the hour working on the basic canter and rider position completely ignoring any move towards changes as this would be the correct thing to do?
Highly unlikely. Most probably the session will be 50/50 split between correcting the issues and satisfying the customer.
Only once in 40 years have I had a trainer (top level SJ) take the pure approach. I went for an SJ lesson (paid for by owner). We spent the entire time working on the canter (which I felt was correct) and never left the ground.
Owner refused to allow us back to that trainer as in their eyes they hadn't received what they paid for. :mad:

When those being given instruction fully accept what needs to be done even if that means taking a horse at elementary back to walking, then and only then will true training take place. I'm not going to hold my breath on this one.

PS, for all those that will reply saying my trainer tells it exactly as it is I would respond that they do as far s they feel you will accept without walking away and no further.

I would love to see what the trainer of Aramas would do if given a completly free hand with no expectation or time frame would do differently.
 
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